Tithe

[Alcott]

I would love to hear you refute and dispove those testimonies of those beloeved saints who placed their faith in Gods promise and watch God bless.

I will be glad to take a stab at that. If you are claiming to be one of those "beloeved saints" yourself, then give me the rundown on how you placed your faith in God in regard to giving/tithing and how he blessed you for it; and give me a reasonable guarantee that you will answer my cross-examination to the best of your knowledge. It should be understood that you need not disclose any monetary figures, but proportions and relations would probably be necessary.

And anyone else who thinks s/he can give a 'testimony' about this which cannot be disproved... jump in with it!

 

[Allan]

I will be glad to take a stab at that. If you are claiming to be one of those "beloeved saints" yourself, then give me the rundown on how you placed your faith in God in regard to giving/tithing and how he blessed you for it; and give me a reasonable guarantee that you will answer my cross-examination to the best of your knowledge. It should be understood that you need not disclose any monetary figures, but proportions and relations would probably be necessary.

And anyone else who thinks s/he can give a 'testimony' about this which cannot be disproved... jump in with it!

Sure. I give 10% and I never had lack but more.
That obviously doesn't include 'offerings' or Giving.


I'll even let you test my salvation testimony too.
And Gods healing of me (that testimony to)
Or anyother testimony you want to examine

 

[Alcott]

Sure. I give 10% and I never had lack but more.
That obviously doesn't include 'offerings' or Giving.
I'll even let you test my salvation testimony too.
And Gods healing of me (that testimony to)
Or anyother testimony you want to examine

Alright. Was there a time you did not give at least 10%, and did you have any lack [of true necessities, or whatever you meant by "lack"] then? If there was a time when you resolved to give at least 10%, beginning in a particular month, how did your financial situation correspond that month in regard to the previous month?-- Was income more, less, or the same? Were expenses more, less, or the same? Did you make any conscious effort to change spending habits?

 

[Allan]

Alright. Was there a time you did not give at least 10%, and did you have any lack [of true necessities, or whatever you meant by "lack"] then? If there was a time when you resolved to give at least 10%, beginning in a particular month, how did your financial situation correspond that month in regard to the previous month?-- Was income more, less, or the same? Were expenses more, less, or the same? Did you make any conscious effort to change spending habits?

Yes there was such a time.
Before I gave there was "lack". Lack = not of enough of something.
Lets see - "lack of true necessities" - Food (check), automobile (check), money for bills (check), loss of job (check), and potential of loose apartment for non-payment (check). It was getting worse with each passing month. I just didn't make enough to meet my needs. And no (since I was in college with 2 roomates sharing expences) I nor they went out, or rent movies. we stayed on the complex grounds or college campus. we had to go give plasma for to make a couple extra bucks.

The month prior was a little better but not by much, and the month prior to that was a little better but not by much. I was sliding down further with each new month and no matter how much I (we) prayed, witnessed, went to church, did our own quiet times. Nothing was helping our situation on the whole.

Financial situation? I think THAT is a big, key mistake with people misunderstanding the tithe with the offering. The offering concerns the finacial or monatary gain we hear so much about "give to God and God will give back" or the "you can't out give God". Tithe deals with prospering in necessities. Money CAN be apart of it but money is not what is promised.

THAT WEEK:
1. We had a pot of hamberger and mac&cheese (1 lb hamberger and 2 boxes of mac) lasted that whole week (5 day) with food for breakfast, lunch and dinner/supper. The day it ran out, my parents made a surprize visit. I hadn't seen them since I got there (2 and half months)
2. also (no one knew mine nor my roomates situation) as I just stated my family came up and bought us over $200 in groceries (that was the 1st of 3 different times people just brought us groceries for no reason than "I just felt you needed this" from both believers and one non-believer.
3. Tracy received money back from the college they over charged him (paid for rent)
4. Joe, whos grandmother disowned him (she was JW) two years prior and had spoken to him since. Sent him a letter with a large sum of money enclosed saying she had just come to know the Lord God he believes in and is saved. But she felt very burdened to send this to him right away. Not to buy his love but share Gods love with him and that whatever he was going through, God was about to reveal He is faithful to His word. She sent that a week prior to any of this and she didn't know our situation much less that WE had that very decided to believe God at His word concerning the tithe.
5. My car was fixed for free by a mechanic, who bought my parts and filled it up with Gas.
6. Joe got a job after being laid off for two weeks.
7. Tracy got a 0.35 raise.

Financially we were making a little more now, but this time we are cutting 10% right off the top our increase. But people were giving to us right and left. Clothing, food, money and we were (for the most part) unable to 'contain it' and started giving it away to others in need.

...later in life...

I make less than $20,000 a year. I have 4 children, a blessed wife, 2 cars fully paid for, pay... I'll put it this way, Social Securry asked for my records concerning my finacial statements over the previous 3 years because I was contesting a payback to them but that I could not (I am partially disabled.) They called me to come in and asked if I had a side job because the extra money that was appearing in my records at odd times because no one gives away this much money consistantly for nothing in return. And then they stated there is no way a person can make such a poltry income with a family of 5 and not be in debt, while owning their own home, two cars with savings for a house/vacation and misc savings as well. Clothes, food.

It is about the Tithe AND the Offering or Gifts.

Regarding the last part.
Did you make any conscious effort to change spending habits?

That is no different than asking a person after they get saved if anything changed. If a person sets their heart upon pleasing the Lord, will they begin to realize what God desires does not? Of course. It is about their attitude.
Does God accept a gift given with malice, comtept, or not in joy? No, it is not pleasing. So it is with the tithe. Your attitude regarding your commitments to God will determine Gods reception of gift. Remember a great deal of Malichi is about them following along, or going through the motions. There was no heart, love, or joy in what they did. God proves himself faithful to those who put their faith in Him. So, yes as you give the Lord opens your eyes to the principle of stewardship. But it isn't about that making all things finacially balance. It is about your finacial ability to make money and or maintain a excess of necessities not equalling what you make but actually NOT equalling it and yet still money comes in from odd places, necessities are provided and so much so you have to give it away. THAT is the theme of tithes and offerins. Technically they are seperate like the spirit and the sould and yet they are indivisible (spiritually speaking) but until you understand the tithe you will never walk in the fulness of blessings of the 'offering' or 'gifts'. And you will not develope the proper disciple of giving until you are discipled in tithing. For the tithe reminds you who is the Lord and who is the steward.

FTR - I believe tithing should be taught as a basic principle and as the believer matures they move from the tithe and offerings/gifts to biblical sacrifical giving. (giving beyond their means).

 

[Steven2006]

Yes there was such a time.
Before I gave there was "lack". Lack = not of enough of something.
Lets see - "lack of true necessities" - Food (check), automobile (check), money for bills (check), loss of job (check), and potential of loose apartment for non-payment (check). It was getting worse with each passing month. I just didn't make enough to meet my needs. And no (since I was in college with 2 roomates sharing expences) I nor they went out, or rent movies. we stayed on the complex grounds or college campus. we had to go give plasma for to make a couple extra bucks.

The month prior was a little better but not by much, and the month prior to that was a little better but not by much. I was sliding down further with each new month and no matter how much I (we) prayed, witnessed, went to church, did our own quiet times. Nothing was helping our situation on the whole.

Financial situation? I think THAT is a big, key mistake with people misunderstanding the tithe with the offering. The offering concerns the finacial or monatary gain we hear so much about "give to God and God will give back" or the "you can't out give God". Tithe deals with prospering in necessities. Money CAN be apart of it but money is not what is promised.

THAT WEEK:
1. We had a pot of hamberger and mac&cheese (1 lb hamberger and 2 boxes of mac) lasted that whole week (5 day) with food for breakfast, lunch and dinner/supper. The day it ran out, my parents made a surprize visit. I hadn't seen them since I got there (2 and half months)
2. also (no one knew mine nor my roomates situation) as I just stated my family came up and bought us over $200 in groceries (that was the 1st of 3 different times people just brought us groceries for no reason than "I just felt you needed this" from both believers and one non-believer.
3. Tracy received money back from the college they over charged him (paid for rent)
4. Joe, whos grandmother disowned him (she was JW) two years prior and had spoken to him since. Sent him a letter with a large sum of money enclosed saying she had just come to know the Lord God he believes in and is saved. But she felt very burdened to send this to him right away. Not to buy his love but share Gods love with him and that whatever he was going through, God was about to reveal He is faithful to His word. She sent that a week prior to any of this and she didn't know our situation much less that WE had that very decided to believe God at His word concerning the tithe.
5. My car was fixed for free by a mechanic, who bought my parts and filled it up with Gas.
6. Joe got a job after being laid off for two weeks.
7. Tracy got a 0.35 raise.

Financially we were making a little more now, but this time we are cutting 10% right off the top our increase. But people were giving to us right and left. Clothing, food, money and we were (for the most part) unable to 'contain it' and started giving it away to others in need.

...later in life...

I make less than $20,000 a year. I have 4 children, a blessed wife, 2 cars fully paid for, pay... I'll put it this way, Social Securry asked for my records concerning my finacial statements over the previous 3 years because I was contesting a payback to them but that I could not (I am partially disabled.) They called me to come in and asked if I had a side job because the extra money that was appearing in my records at odd times because no one gives away this much money consistantly for nothing in return. And then they stated there is no way a person can make such a poltry income with a family of 5 and not be in debt, while owning their own home, two cars with savings for a house/vacation and misc savings as well. Clothes, food.

It is about the Tithe AND the Offering or Gifts.

Regarding the last part.
Did you make any conscious effort to change spending habits?

That is no different than asking a person after they get saved if anything changed. If a person sets their heart upon pleasing the Lord, will they begin to realize what God desires does not? Of course. It is about their attitude.
Does God accept a gift given with malice, comtept, or not in joy? No, it is not pleasing. So it is with the tithe. Your attitude regarding your commitments to God will determine Gods reception of gift. Remember a great deal of Malichi is about them following along, or going through the motions. There was no heart, love, or joy in what they did. God proves himself faithful to those who put their faith in Him. So, yes as you give the Lord opens your eyes to the principle of stewardship. But it isn't about that making all things finacially balance. It is about your finacial ability to make money and or maintain a excess of necessities not equalling what you make but actually NOT equalling it and yet still money comes in from odd places, necessities are provided and so much so you have to give it away. THAT is the theme of tithes and offerins. Technically they are seperate like the spirit and the sould and yet they are indivisible (spiritually speaking) but until you understand the tithe you will never walk in the fulness of blessings of the 'offering' or 'gifts'. And you will not develope the proper disciple of giving until you are discipled in tithing. For the tithe reminds you who is the Lord and who is the steward.

FTR - I believe tithing should be taught as a basic principle and as the believer matures they move from the tithe and offerings/gifts to biblical sacrifical giving. (giving beyond their means).

Very interesting post, thank you for sharing. You seem like a good person to answer my previous questions, but I'll rephrase them here for you. Lets say you have two families that tithe. Family A the husband works for a big union company. Gets full medical benefits and full retirement benefits. Family B the husband gets none of those things, and has to pay out lets say about one thousand a month to just be equal to family A in monthly needed benefits. Does family A pay a tithe on those benefits as an excess? (I doubt many do), or does family B deducts those expenses from there income (excess) before figuring a tithe? Or do they just tithe on all income, but in reality their percentage would then be much different, then family A, which would create a much greater burden on them. It seems like in this day and age there are so many other factors, that makes a simple 10% hard to actually dictate. What about taxes, before or after? How does that work where some states have much higher taxes than states that have little or none? What about states that have property taxes that might be ten times that of many other states?

I was raised to give ten percent. As an adult I have always used that as sort of a benchmark, but I am not sure I would use it as a mandate. At certain times I have given less, because of circumstances, with a conscious goal a getting back to that benchmark. Other times I have given more when circumstances allowed for it.

 

[Alcott]

Yes there was such a time.
Before I gave there was "lack". Lack = not of enough of something.
Lets see - "lack of true necessities" - Food (check), automobile (check), money for bills (check), loss of job (check), and potential of loose apartment for non-payment (check). It was getting worse with each passing month.

You were actually malnourished? You had no means to go where you needed to go? Did you actually lose the apartment and were homeless?

Financial situation? I think THAT is a big, key mistake with people misunderstanding the tithe with the offering. The offering concerns the finacial or monatary gain we hear so much about "give to God and God will give back" or the "you can't out give God". Tithe deals with prospering in necessities. Money CAN be apart of it but money is not what is promised.

Money is what you are talking about and describing the supposed principle in terms of.

THAT WEEK: 1. We had a pot of hamberger and mac&cheese (1 lb hamberger and 2 boxes of mac) lasted that whole week (5 day) with food for breakfast, lunch and dinner/supper.

Any food can last the whole week, short of spoiling, if you limit it thus. And you state this ambiguously, specifically mentioning the hamburger and mac&cheese, appearing to imply it was eaten over 5 days for 3 meals a day. If that's not what you meant, how much other food was consumed?

The day it ran out, my parents made a surprize visit. I hadn't seen them since I got there (2 and half months)

You hadn't seen them, but had you talked to them or written them? What did you mention about your living situation?

2. also (no one knew mine nor my roomates situation) as I just stated my family came up and bought us over $200 in groceries (that was the 1st of 3 different times people just brought us groceries for no reason than "I just felt you needed this" from both believers and one non-believer.

To be clear, are you claiming you and your roomies said absolutely nothing to anyone about your situation, and that no one visited and got the idea?

3. Tracy received money back from the college they over charged him (paid for rent)

I got a credit from AT&T for being double-charged on a recent phone bill;and for the record, I haven't contributed anything for a couple of months to a church or ministry.

4. Joe, whos grandmother disowned him (she was JW) two years prior and had spoken to him since. Sent him a letter with a large sum of money enclosed saying she had just come to know the Lord God he believes in and is saved. But she felt very burdened to send this to him right away. Not to buy his love but share Gods love with him and that whatever he was going through, God was about to reveal He is faithful to His word. She sent that a week prior to any of this and she didn't know our situation much less that WE had that very decided to believe God at His word concerning the tithe.

If she included the phrase, "whatever he was going through," then she knew, or had reason to suspect, there was some need. And if she had "disowned" him 2 years before as a JW, that meant she was not giving him birthday or Christmas presents according to the demands of that religion. Was she perhaps trying to make up for that? And had she been in contact with your parents? who, even if you had not told them the specifics, knew how grateful you appeared when they brought the groceries to you?

5. My car was fixed for free by a mechanic, who bought my parts and filled it up with Gas.

Was the mechanic a complete stranger to you? [and I wonder why you capitalize Gas]

6. Joe got a job after being laid off for two weeks.

I assume he had been out and applying. 2 weeks is hardly any kind of record.

7. Tracy got a 0.35 raise.

Was it his first raise? If not, how much was the previous one before you resolved to tithe?

Financially we were making a little more now, but this time we are cutting 10% right off the top our increase. But people were giving to us right and left. Clothing, food, money and we were (for the most part) unable to 'contain it' and started giving it away to others in need.

Word apparently got around some way. Since we don't see people who have all their needs and more being given food, clothing, and money "right and left," it's obvious you guys were known to need these things.

...later in life...I make less than $20,000 a year. I have 4 children, a blessed wife, 2 cars fully paid for, pay...

Does that blessed wife, and/or one or more of those children have an income of any significance?

I'll put it this way, Social Securry asked for my records concerning my finacial statements over the previous 3 years because I was contesting a payback to them but that I could not (I am partially disabled.) They called me to come in and asked if I had a side job because the extra money that was appearing in my records at odd times because no one gives away this much money consistantly for nothing in return. And then they stated there is no way a person can make such a poltry income with a family of 5 and not be in debt, while owning their own home, two cars with savings for a house/vacation and misc savings as well. Clothes, food.

I don't fully understand this paragraph. What does Social Security have to do with records of what you give away? I thought they dealt only with payroll taxes of employee and employer, and benefit payouts.

Did you make any conscious effort to change spending habits?
That is no different than asking a person after they get saved if anything changed. If a person sets their heart upon pleasing the Lord, will they begin to realize what God desires does not? Of course. It is about their attitude.

That is the essence of this perception of seeing your financial situation improve if you begin to tithe. You have to adjust some budget items, which could be done without a tithe having anything to do with it, coupled with a change in attitude which by itself results in a more serious approach to practical living. But so many people want to see this as a mystical happening. It can be fully explained, and it's not true that, regarding money, "you just don't know where it comes from!" as someone once told me. Yes, you DO know where it 'comes from,' if you only look.

Does God accept a gift given with malice, comtept, or not in joy? No, it is not pleasing.

I will have to see a scripture saying that.

So it is with the tithe. Your attitude regarding your commitments to God will determine Gods reception of gift.[/quoet]

Exactly what do you mean? That He will send it back if you're not thinking the right thoughts?

Remember a great deal of Malichi is about them following along, or going through the motions. There was no heart, love, or joy in what they did.

Malachi was late, but he finally made it, as he always seems to. And I don't agree. That Mal. 3 passage says "Test me in this and SEE if I will not pour out on you a blessing...." If anything, that assumes a negative attitude toward tithes and offerings, which can be converted. How could that happen if God rejected the tithes and offerings he said bring in and then "SEE..."?

It is about your finacial ability to make money and or maintain a excess of necessities not equalling what you make but actually NOT equalling it and yet still money comes in from odd places, necessities are provided and so much so you have to give it away. THAT is the theme of tithes and offerins.

If it were that easy, the principle would be applied such that Christians wouldn't bother going to work; they'd just pull those puppet strings and reel in that money from "odd places." So instead of fulltime jobs there would be fulltime gospelling-- praise, witnessing, giving away that excess that came to us from odd places. Then there would surely be a bunch of odd places that went broke... at least until they learned how to reel in money from odder places.

For the tithe reminds you who is the Lord and who is the steward.

Wouln't it be easier for God to just grab his 10% gratuity from the beginning, as Social Security grabs its off the top?

FTR - I believe tithing should be taught as a basic principle and as the believer matures they move from the tithe and offerings/gifts to biblical sacrifical giving. (giving beyond their means).

Why not just jump right in and go to the ultimate sacrificial giving? Give ALL one's income. If God takes care of us and meets our needs, what is the problem with that?

 

[AresMan]

Tithing is part of the Law and scripture says "...the law is spiritual...". So that means you wrong, at least if we hold scripture to be true.

Can all of the law be "spiritualized"? How generic or ambiguous are you allowed to be, especially with laws that are only manifest in detailed and specific instances?

You are 0 for 1 here.

But I said it holds spiritual principles, it is sad you have no understanding of stewardship for that is ONE of the priniciples which tithing taught in the OT. So there again, great Ares, you are wrong a second time.

I do understand and practice stewardship. What did OT tithing "teach"? Feeding the fatherless, widows, foreigners, and ministers. Outside the ceremonial tithe laws given to the nation of Israel specifically for blood Levites, festivals, sacrifices, and the crops and livestock of the physical land of Canaan, there is no command by God for Christians to give specific amounts or percentages of monetary income to anything. Yes, we are told to give cheerfully and abundantly, but the amount and percentage is not specified and is totally up to the giver and his conscience through the Holy Spirit. Giving 10% of one's income has zero to do with the tithing that actually took place in the Bible, and no where does the Bible ever extrude anything from tithing in any other sense than how it was specifically spell out.

You are 0 for 2 here.

No one said anything about 'magical' or mystical or any other such non-sense. But your vast ignorance or obstanance in acceptance of the testimonies of countless hundreds of thousands if not millions who do tithe and Gods honoring of it stands in square refute to your claim of deriving : "...anything "magical" about the tithe apart from its specific instances in Biblical history". That makes three out of three. I would love to hear you refute and dispove those testimonies of those beloeved saints who placed their faith in Gods promise and watch God bless. But hey, you are free to stand where you want.

I could just as easily give testimonies of people were blessed by giving any other amount, or who were blessed when they realized that so-called "tithing" was not a requirement. God blesses people based on their faithfulness, cheerfulness, and generosity. God's blessing has zero to do with any "universal" threshhold. There is no hardcore evidence that one is not blessed by faithfully giving 9% of his net/gross/gross+benefits income to something and that one who is giving 10% of his net/gross/gross+benefits income is substantially and notably blessed more, while one who is giving 11% of his net/gross/gross+benefits income is not noticeably blessed much more than the 10%-er. I do not need to prove such a negative. You would need to prove such an experiment that I have laid out to demonstrate that a 10% factor has a noticeable impact on the blessing threshhold while other percentages do not. The blessings come from the matter of the heart, not from the specific amount.

You are 0 for 3 here.

 

[AresMan]

Really? Can you show me where tithing was done away with.

Hebrews 7 disannuls the command to tithe.

Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Now, even if the command to tithe were still "in effect," no one today actually obeys it, and cannot obey it. We would have to:
1. live in the land of Canaan (Deu 12:1,6)
2. have a functioning priesthood consisting of blood Levites (Num 18:21-22)
3. have a specific place that God has chosen where we all come together annually, have a conglomerate feast and eat our own tithes (Deu 14:22-27)
4. tithe of the crops and livestock of the land of Canaan (Lev 27:30-34)
5. give heap tithes to the Levites and poor every three years (Deu 14:28-29)
6. practice a ceremonial seven-year cycle, release debts every seventh year, with local Sabbatical feasts (Deu 15)
7. celebrate the year of Jubilee in which servants were freed and there was no tithe (Lev 25).

For those who are not under these conditions (Gentiles), there is no command to give any specific amount or percentage of anything to anything. There is only the admonition to give cheerfully and abundantly. The early church gave of their abundance, met all needs, and had all things common.

If you say it was under the law, then I must also bring the law to bear against you. For the law declares we shall not lie, lust, murder... these things are under the law. And if you say THOSE are spiritual laws.

There were moral laws, civil laws, and ceremonial laws. The tithe laws were ceremonial. Also, lying, lusting, and murdering are all repeating in the New Testament, even in the epistles.

Then what of the laws like women are to be in silence in the Church AS SAYETH THE LAW.

Where is this in the Law? This is what Paul gave for the church.

The Law set forth men in spiritual leadership role of priest and it maintains toward the bishop/Elder/Pastor.

Priests were blood descendents of Aaron as the Law commanded. Bishops/elders/"pastors" are commanded to be men in the epistles. Ok? Does there need to be a correlation?

Jesus never spoke against the tithe but said ...these things (tithe) you aught to have done and NOT LEFT THE OTHER undone...

Jesus was speaking to hypocritical scribes and Pharisees--Jewish religious leaders, and outward examples of the Law who "[sat] in Moses' seat" (Matt 23:2). When Jesus reference their tithing (of mint, anise, and cummin), He was referring to their observance of the all the specific and detailed ceremonial tithe laws in the Mosaic code, including Levites, the temple, crops, livestock, annual festivals, third-year heaps, seven-year cycle, the works. He was not speaking directly to us, and was not talking about giving 10% of one's net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a local church. There is zero Scriptural justification for any kind of tithe mandate outside the intricate system of ceremonial laws given to specifically spelled-out people for specifically spelled-out reasons, in a specifically spelled-out land. Giving 10% of one's net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a local church is not observing tithing according to the Bible.

Paul nor Peter never spoke against tithing

There is no good reason that they would need to.

There are many things OF the Law that we are still to uphold. I'm not saying we are to tithe to maintain the law.

Good, because we can't.

But it IS OF NOTE, that the priests were partakers of the tithes and was the way God provided for them and was also used to provided for the temple maintance as well as provisions for the poor, fatherless, and widowed.

Yup. Exactly how God structured the agricultural "tax" and "welfare" system for His theocracy of Israel.

And then Paul states when speaking of Pastors that they are to be taken care of from the things that are given to the church, and in other places that we (the church) are to care for the poor, fatherless, and widowed.

Yup. Any specific amount given? Any Scriptural justification to prove that the tithe is how this is to be done?

Why did Paul think the OT view of tithing was a proper illistration (which supported the priests and community) to be used for the NT church. We don't tithe! We give when we feel moved.

Maybe the spiritual principle to be derived from the tithe is not the amount of the tithe but the end of the tithe: to meet needs, care for the poor, finance the church, etc. If the amount matters, Paul would have said so. Not once anywhere in the epistles is anyone ever told to tithe.

Anytime you relinquish ownership of something (including tithing) you are giving. When you give you are to give (relinquish your ownership to another) it cheerfully back unto the Lord for it IS His(what is this - money desigated or holy unto God, that is awefully close to definition of the tithe).

Ok. You lost me. Yes, we relinquish ownership when we give. God owns everything. We are to be good stewards of what God has given, which includes everything that we have. However, there is no set amount that we are required to relinquish to another party.

However, that aside... Tithing falls under 'Biblical Giving". We are not bound to the law anymore as believers but we must still abide by it, even beyond the basic 10 commandments.

Which is it? Are we required to "tithe" or aren't we? If we are, then we must do it the way the Bible says, not the way you want it to be done. There is no justification for removing the tithe from its specific definition, "spiritualizing" it, putting it in another (and almost opposite context), and saying that we are required to do that instead of what the Bible actually says.

No, that is not. It still makes you soveriegn and God your little helper.

Why? God didn't say how much I am required to give to anything.

The real question is the FIRST HALF of your question: "What can I give cheerfully and abundantly?" My time? Money? Resourses?

Of course. The Bible never even limited it to money in the NT giving passages.

I have yet to find someone give cheerfully and abundantly to a need irresponsibly. You can not give irresposibly if you are giving according to the leading of God or a need. It is only considered irresponsible to those who exhalt money to equal status with God.

What I meant was irresponsibly giving more than one was able (like writing a check for an amount that you don't have) and falsely tempting God to provide for your needs. Sorry that I did not clarify that.

Regarding insuffient? I can not pay for a person to get a badly needed car because their only broke down. But if I give to the church and others do the same, THAT money cumulitivly can bless that person.

Of course.

There is NO SUCH THING as insuffient when it comes to the body, only those of little faith.

What I meant was going to the other extreme and giving table scraps, and hence a need going unmet. Of course, God can do whatever, but your point was also my point.

And how do you tally up the expenses? Do you wait to see what the bill will be the seek to meet that need individually?

You are reaching. I never said that one should not plan giving, or give on a proportionate consistent basis. All I have said is that there is no specific required amount or percentage, period.

We do not give to the local church to meet its expesense. Show me THAT in scripture. We give to the local that it can meet needs of people as one body unified in Christ AND to support the ministries and mission which God has set forth in and for that Church.

Of course, I did not mean to say that giving to the church was exclusively to meet its building expenses. All I was saying was that one does need to give in order to meet the expenses. Also, I was saying that the church is not established to be the proxy through which all giving is done. If someone you know has an immediate need, you may want to give to him directly. You might not want to stick it in a plate and hope and pray that somehow, enough from the collective church budget will get to him in a timely manner.

Really. Please show me where it is something we should not do.

You can give however you feel led to give. You are not required to give an alleged "tithe."

 

[AresMan]

Very interesting post, thank you for sharing. You seem like a good person to answer my previous questions, but I'll rephrase them here for you. Lets say you have two families that tithe. Family A the husband works for a big union company. Gets full medical benefits and full retirement benefits. Family B the husband gets none of those things, and has to pay out lets say about one thousand a month to just be equal to family A in monthly needed benefits. Does family A pay a tithe on those benefits as an excess? (I doubt many do), or does family B deducts those expenses from there income (excess) before figuring a tithe? Or do they just tithe on all income, but in reality their percentage would then be much different, then family A, which would create a much greater burden on them. It seems like in this day and age there are so many other factors, that makes a simple 10% hard to actually dictate. What about taxes, before or after? How does that work where some states have much higher taxes than states that have little or none? What about states that have property taxes that might be ten times that of many other states?

I was raised to give ten percent. As an adult I have always used that as sort of a benchmark, but I am not sure I would use it as a mandate. At certain times I have given less, because of circumstances, with a conscious goal a getting back to that benchmark. Other times I have given more when circumstances allowed for it.

How about this:
You are diagnosed with a serious health problem and need to undergo a mandatory and very expensive surgery ($100,000). Your employment health care benefits pay for this. After you undergo this gruesome surgery, and you're handicapped after this (but it did save your life!), are you required to tithe of this benefit? None of this was anything you could spend. You could not see any of this money. Now, in your handicapped state, do you need to pay off a $10,000 debt to the church for this part of your "income"?

Are we required to pay "tithes" on every root canal paid for by dental insurance?
If we end up in an auto accident and insurance covers the damage, even though we do not have cash to spend as a result, are we required to "tithe" on the insurance claim money used to pay for the damage? Do we need to calculate our premiums thus far, subtract it from the amount received from the claim, and pay "tithes" on the remaining amount?



(Yes, I am having fun and thoroughly enjoying this thread.)

 

[HankD]

Maybe I missed it going through this thread, but did anyone give the scriptural principle of NT giving?

2 Corinthians 9

6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work.​

1) as you purpose in your heart : Tithing is fine as a purpose, but so is more or even less.
2) Not grudgingly : how do you feel when you drop your gift in the plate (or whatever manner)?
3) Not of necessity : This IMO eliminates the tithe as a principle of giving for NT believers.​

But it does indeed allow it under number 1 above - as a purpose of the heart (a free will decision).​

IMO:
Giving nothing : allowable.
Less than a tithe : Good.
A tithe : Better
More than a tithe : Best.​

Assuming the three scriptural principles above
(also the principle of stewardship comes into play here - e.g. pay your bills on time and owe no man anything - oops, that means me too).​

The scripture also indicates a reward for each of the purposes above (none, good, better, best).

My opinion of course - (apart from the Scripture)​

HankD​

 

[AresMan]

Just to point out my opinion and observations, "New Testament" giving does not "replace" Old Testament tithing. Both issues are not even in the same ballpark. They are complete apples and oranges.

Old Testament tithing was a purely government thing: a mandatory agricultural tax and welfare system for a theocratic nation. Tithing was not unique to Israel; it was practiced by many other nations during this time of history. It is more in the same league with our government tax and welfare system, only we do not have a priestly theocracy.

New Testament giving is not really a New Testament thing. It is a universal thing. Cheerful and abundant giving has nothing to do with the tithe in any way, shape, or form. We pay our mandatory "tithes" to our goverment. We then freely give to charities and those in need. There is no law or guide for an amount; just whatever meets needs. The church is not the government; the church is a charity, and possesses no power (through state law nor through Scriptural law) to exact any defined "payment" from anyone.

 

[mes228]

AresMan, you are correct. As pretty much all Churches/Scholars/Theologians that are honest with scripture must agree. Very few Churches do not agree that the New Testament "truth" has to be "giving" and not legalistic "tithing'. Even the Baptist doctrine as stated in "The Baptist Faith And Message" goes no further than scripture. Unfortunately, Baptist members are the victims of un-supervised, motivational, moving sermons that go far beyond scripture. Many are guilted into believing they are stealing, all income is tithable, the "first tenth" is Gods, etc.etc. ad nauseaum. The financial situation of some elderly in the Baptist faith is not easy. I won't go so far as to say tithing is a sin but will say those that believe this non-truth have a false idea of God. A false idea of God, be it believing that God is a tree, or a rock, or an God that demands ten percent, all are wrong, and unscriptural. This is one of those burdens placed on mens backs that those in charge seldom touch. Some Churches that teach legalistisc tithing exempt the Ministry. Some compensate the Ministry to off set the tithe. Most all members of these churches/televangelist , believe their Minister/Leader tithes. The rumour mill in many organizations lead members to believe that their "leader" not only tithes but gives back the portion of his salary that he doesn't need. I've heard this in several televangelist works I'm familiar with (it's routine. over and over again). The Apostle Paul knew he wasn't "authorized" nor couldn demand or receive tithes from Christians. No man alive today can (the Pope doesn't even do so). Paul funded his work with his families wealth he inherited (after the jail incident he never solicits donations). Some scholars tie Paul's family to the wealthy Jews that owned the copper industry in Tarsus. Paul may have been disowned for becoming Christian (but after the jail incident and intervention by his nephew) re-instated into his inheritance. He spent his own money doing the "work" he was called to do (show me a televangelist that does that today!). Even while in prison he was able to pay for his private quarters and guarding. Apparently for quite some time he was able to receive visitors etc. as he paid for his confinement . This was a Romans "right" and required enormous amounts of money. Those here that want to enforce tithing as a "law or New Test. command" should speak with a Rabbi about the subject (I've done so multiple times). He will probably laugh in their face at how unbiblical and twisted a few churches have the topic. AresMan is correct -
the tithe has definitive boundaries, was only agriculture, could only be accepted by the Priesthood, and was never monetary. No one can change the truth of free will giving from the heart and be honest with scripture or God.

 

[Tom Butler]

Well, after reading all the arguments pro and con about tithing, here is what I have gleaned from the anti-tithers.

1. If the church has a need, give what you want to to help out. If it doesn't have a need, you get to keep your money.

2. The amount you give varies according to subjective feelings. Give if you feel like it, don't give if you don't. If you feel like giving a certain amount, fine. If not, fine.

3. You give according to how God has blessed you, but there's no magic formula or percentage to determine how to measure either the blessings or the giving.

4. Some of you are very generous with your giving, going well beyond the "legalistic" tithe. (Most tithers I know go well beyond it, as well).

5. Giving is based on what's left after all the bills are paid. Few seem to write that gift check first.

6. Based on the response to my question (meaning zero response), I don't detect that giving is seen as an act of worship.

These are observations, not criticisms. If you think I've mislabeled you, then I'm not talking about you.

 

[mes228]

Tom, if you wish to say "our rules to join this Church require you tithe ten percent" Thats fine with me. Just as joining a country club, they have the right to say "our rules require you disclose your income and you must pledge ten percent to join". Same deal, just leave the "God Says" out of it and your O.K with me, and perhaps God.

Anyone that has Brothers, Sisters,Aunts, Uncles ie extended family that needs care and compassion. Then writes the tithe check "first" to a worldly work has pretty much denied the faith to begin with. Been there and done that. I do not recommend it to others as a Christian thing to do.

I believe your Bible says (from memory) "when I was naked you clothed me, hungry you fed me etc." and goes on to say when you did this to the "least" you did it to me (Christ). I don't think anything is said about "tithing" to anyone's particular "work". In todays world ego maniacs, deceivers, thieves, liars, raise up Christian "works" and demand they be financed on the back of gullible Christians. With threats and guilt they rob widows, orphans, the oppressed, and those ill equipted to discern "truth" from powerful preaching. Many that are misled into tithing are then lied to and told their responsibility ends when they 'give". Yea, sure - take the resources God has given (talents) you have and bury them. " Let us take care of it" they say. "We'll do the right thing" said Jim Jones, The Bakers, The Armstrong's, the Oral Robert's, and a thousand other brilliant speakers. Yet somehow they accrue millions of dollars, jets, huge mansions, and beautiful edifices for others to listen to them preach in. Then leave it for their kids.

Don't construe this as saying that you ought not support the Church you attend. You should, as it cost to run anything. Just don't rob others in the name of God with threats of horrible of punishments, compare them to criminals, promise God will be with them if they give, etc. and perhaps you'll be o.k. The real "criminals" are those preaching this image of God. And by the way I've apologized to many a Christian I taught that drivel to.

Giving "is" an act of worship - paying a demanded "bill" out of thin air is debtorship of the worst kind. Get a "believer" and economically imprison him for the rest of his life - yea that's a Christian thing to do. As an aside, what an awful thing to teach children and set them up to be "used" by some great motivational speaker the rest of their lives. Sadly I taught my children this evil stuff and later in life had the humiliating task of telling them I was wrong. Be right the first time when you teach in the name of God. Don't blithely assume your "Church" your "Seminary" your
"Denomination" is always right. Many, most certainly are not always right.

If anyone wants to use the "magic" formula of "ten percent" as a guideline for giving and leave God out of it. Thats probably O.K. too.

I challenge you to go to any modern, large, "work" - especially any that have copied the format of the "seeker" type churches and look around you. Not up on stage at the orchestra, the polished professional man speaking, the wonderful singing by professional. Don't look at the "ENTERTAINERS" look at the members.
A large portion will be not too suave, not too worldly prosperous, and many down right looking whipped by life. Yet the music goes on, the entertainment tweaks the senses, the "hook" is set and they give, and give, and give. If Christ were really there he would take a whip and drive out those on stage making "God's House" a house of merchandise. As you can tell, I despise making merchandise out of Gods children, or business in the disguise of religion. I believe God does also.

As most on these boards are want to do, chalk this up as "my opinion". Again and again you can see "truth" on some of these topics posted. Yet the many here blithely ignore it, and continually revert back to the non-sense they were taught by their denomination, their Seminary, their Church, their Pastor. This is a great evil. Some Speakers decry the evils of sex, drink, etc.etc. but these are very minor compared to whats being taught every day in Churches. A drunk pretty much ruins his life, so does a harlot, a Preacher can implant a ruinous, false belief about God in hundreds of thousands of minds in one sermon if he's on television. Many Christians would not recognize true evil if it was staring them in the face.

 

[AresMan]

1. If the church has a need, give what you want to to help out. If it doesn't have a need, you get to keep your money.

Maybe I need to add, I did not intend to argue for ignorant giving or minimal giving. The people should be well informed of all the needs of the church. The motivation is not to "break even." Every giver should give as if not to rely on others to take up the slack. The church should have a surplus in its budget. This, Scripturally however, is not to be exacted by any means--legally or through faulty applications of Scripture.

2. The amount you give varies according to subjective feelings. Give if you feel like it, don't give if you don't. If you feel like giving a certain amount, fine. If not, fine.

It could be called "Holy Spirit leading." Do you have faith in preaching cheerful giving and allowing the Holy Spirit to lead? "Subjective feelings" seems rather empty to me.

3. You give according to how God has blessed you, but there's no magic formula or percentage to determine how to measure either the blessings or the giving.

Yes, because the Bible does not give one.

4. Some of you are very generous with your giving, going well beyond the "legalistic" tithe. (Most tithers I know go well beyond it, as well).

Yes. However, I would call it alleged "tithe". The "tithe" of net/gross/gross+benefits is not the tithe of the Bible. The actual tithe of the Bible was not legalistic. The teaching of a mandatory "tithe" of net/gross/gross+benefits income to a local church, whether required or that that it is the threshhold of some kind of unique blessings attached to it, is not Scripturally correct; therefore it would be "legalistic."

5. Giving is based on what's left after all the bills are paid. Few seem to write that gift check first.

Giving is based upon what can be done responsibly. There is no where in Scripture where Christians are required to set aside a portion of money to give to a local church, ignore debt, and tempt God to make sure that debts will be paid. If one can set aside a good portion and do such, and knows in reason that bills will be covered responsibly, because his budget is well balanced, then by all means, let him. The point is that God should not be tempted. Also, this point makes the erroneous assumption that tithes and firstfruits are one and the same. In the Law, tithes and firstfruits were two completely separate parts of the ceremonial law.

6. Based on the response to my question (meaning zero response), I don't detect that giving is seen as an act of worship.

Giving is an act of worship in that all giving is done cheerfully and abundantly. It can become a dry duty if you think that there is any specific required amount that must be given at regularly defined intervals. Stewardship of all resources in every endeavor is an act of worship. Paying bills on time every time is an act of worship. Tipping the wait[er/ress] generously is an act of worship. Giving to the local church is an act of worship. Giving to a good and honest charity is an act of worship. Giving directly to a friend in need is an act of worship.

These are observations, not criticisms. If you think I've mislabeled you, then I'm not talking about you.

You may have mislabeled them a little, and thanks for helping me to clarify things I may have left unsaid.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom, if you wish to say "our rules to join this Church require you tithe ten percent" Thats fine with me. Just as joining a country club, they have the right to say "our rules require you disclose your income and you must pledge ten percent to join". Same deal, just leave the "God Says" out of it and your O.K with me, and perhaps God.
----
I believe your Bible says (from memory) "when I was naked you clothed me, hungry you fed me etc." and goes on to say when you did this to the "least" you did it to me (Christ). I don't think anything is said about "tithing" to anyone's particular "work". In todays world ego maniacs, deceivers, thieves, liars, raise up Christian "works" and demand they be financed on the back of gullible Christians. With threats and guilt they rob widows, orphans, the oppressed, and those ill equipted to discern "truth" from powerful preaching. Many that are misled into tithing are then lied to and told their responsibility ends when they 'give". Yea, sure - take the resources God has given (talents) you have and bury them. " Let us take care of it" they say. "We'll do the right thing" said Jim Jones, The Bakers, The Armstrong's, the Oral Robert's, and a thousand other brilliant speakers. Yet somehow they accrue millions of dollars, jets, huge mansions, and beautiful edifices for others to listen to them preach in. Then leave it for their kids.

I'm in agreement with a lot of your post #54. My frame of reference are the four churches I've been a member of in the past 60 years, and I want to defend them.

Although all of them taught tithing, none of them is anything like those you held up as evil examples. None of them required tithing as a condition of membership. (But my present church does list attendance and financial support as membership obligations. And we do expect our pastor and deacons to set the example.) None of them sought to manipulate, extort or shame people into tithing, but did teach that the tithe was the Biblical ideal.

I'm sure we practice tithing imperfectly. I myself do not tithe my wife's mint and cumin (Matt 23:23). I have at times given the tithe with a bit of legalism (giving just enough to keep God off my back about it). I would be the last one to suggest that one give money to his church instead of feeding and clothing his family. In fact, that was Jesus' condemnation of the Pharisees in Matthew 23. They tithed everything, but neglected more important things. One of those things mentioned elsewhere was their failure to take care of elderly parents.

I have respect for those of you who do not see tithing as a NT teaching. In the final analysis, though, I do believe it is, simply because Jesus endorsed tithing as a principle while condemning hypocritical legalism.

 

[TCGreek]

I'm in agreement with a lot of your post #54. My frame of reference are the four churches I've been a member of in the past 60 years, and I want to defend them.

Although all of them taught tithing, none of them is anything like those you held up as evil examples. None of them required tithing as a condition of membership. (But my present church does list attendance and financial support as membership obligations. And we do expect our pastor and deacons to set the example.) None of them sought to manipulate, extort or shame people into tithing, but did teach that the tithe was the Biblical ideal.

I'm sure we practice tithing imperfectly. I myself do not tithe my wife's mint and cumin (Matt 23:23). I have at times given the tithe with a bit of legalism (giving just enough to keep God off my back about it). I would be the last one to suggest that one give money to his church instead of feeding and clothing his family. In fact, that was Jesus' condemnation of the Pharisees in Matthew 23. They tithed everything, but neglected more important things. One of those things mentioned elsewhere was their failure to take care of elderly parents.

I have respect for those of you who do not see tithing as a NT teaching. In the final analysis, though, I do believe it is, simply because Jesus endorsed tithing as a principle while condemning hypocritical legalism.

A very balanced approach, thank you:thumbs:

 

[AresMan]

I have respect for those of you who do not see tithing as a NT teaching. In the final analysis, though, I do believe it is, simply because Jesus endorsed tithing as a principle while condemning hypocritical legalism.

Where did Jesus endorse "tithing" as a "principle"? When Jesus referred to the Pharisees' tithing, He was referring to their adherence (or rather their meticulous and legalistic addition) to the ceremonial Mosaic tithe code. The Pharisees were Jewish religious leaders who were outward examples of the Mosaic Law. They "[sat] in Moses' seat." There is no valid Scriptural reason to assume any other context than that which only exists in Scripture itself, namely the actual intricate system of ceremonial tithe observances prescribed by the Mosaic Law itself. This is exactly what Jesus meant when He referred to their tithing. Jesus was not declaring anything new, forming a "principle", or referencing anyone other than these scribes and Pharisees and their act of tithing mint, anise, and cumin in supposed obedience to the Mosaic ceremonial code. You know that what I am saying is exactly the truth.

 

[Allan]

Very interesting post, thank you for sharing. You seem like a good person to answer my previous questions, but I'll rephrase them here for you. Lets say you have two families that tithe. Family A the husband works for a big union company. Gets full medical benefits and full retirement benefits. Family B the husband gets none of those things, and has to pay out lets say about one thousand a month to just be equal to family A in monthly needed benefits. Does family A pay a tithe on those benefits as an excess? (I doubt many do), or does family B deducts those expenses from there income (excess) before figuring a tithe? Or do they just tithe on all income, but in reality their percentage would then be much different, then family A, which would create a much greater burden on them. It seems like in this day and age there are so many other factors, that makes a simple 10% hard to actually dictate. What about taxes, before or after? How does that work where some states have much higher taxes than states that have little or none? What about states that have property taxes that might be ten times that of many other states?

I was raised to give ten percent. As an adult I have always used that as sort of a benchmark, but I am not sure I would use it as a mandate. At certain times I have given less, because of circumstances, with a conscious goal a getting back to that benchmark. Other times I have given more when circumstances allowed for it.

First, under the Law the medical benifits would not be tithed on because they are not an increase but service you are paying for. You pay a monthly due to a group who takes a kind of 'pooling' of moneys from everyone to pay any medical problems that arise. Even if you have a medical problem that exceeds the monies you applied through monthly payments, it is not still not an excess because it is not given to 'you' but the company to who you owed. 'They' paid your bill/debt on your behalf because it is the service you pay for. It is not 'your' money, you are paying for a service. But we are not speaking of Law of the Tithe but the principles regarding it.

IF we were speaking of keeping the Law of the Tithe according to OT standards and applications, then I would agree. But NNE (I know of or ever heard) speaks of Tithing after this manner. IF they do, then THEY are wrong.


I am your "B" group. I personally give a tenth of my paycheck off the gross, and all left over is divided into special accounts (medical, Insurance, dental, savings, Vacation, Christmas, ext...). But if we see a need, we pull from our savings first, then entertainment, then gits, ext... to give to that need. And if God calls on us to give, then we give as He asks, and take from whatever can. But God ALWAYS gives back all that is needed and even more. I must say though you miss point completely however. It is not about how much you give, but about how much of what you get is truly Gods AND the attitude in which you do it. It isn't about paying the last farthing. God doesn't mind if that is what you desire to do. Jesus speaking with the Pharasies stated the tithe even on the herbs they have (mint, arnise), and Jesus said these things you 'should do' but you should not let the other (righteous judgment, holy life) be undone. That was Jesus speaking while under the Jewish Law and it was mandated to them. But Jesus didn't condemn the Law of the tithe but showed they were going through the motions and not ever understanding the spiritual principles accosiated with it. But again we are not speaking of the Tithe in accordance with the OT Laws.

Our lives are Gods but we also are to devote time in our daily lives to God and it should be consistant. Not to prove how holy we are but to set ourselves under His authority declaring outwardly (manifestly) my life is Gods and I am committed to Him in it by setting aside this time unto Him. The same with our money. It IS Gods (all of it), but we should be committed to set ourselves under His authority in this area as well as with as much devotion as our time, declaring outwardly (manifestly) my money is Gods and I am committed to Him in it. Our gifts above that devotion is just that, our 'giving' because of His faithfulness unto those who are devoted unto Him by setting aside this time/money/presence/ect... unto Him.

Obedience is manditory, but is also something we do/give willingly of ourselves as Worship unto God.

I descibe Worship as - being completely devoted to the point of being absolutely consumed with God.

My question is just how devoted are we? When we give do we give in the biblical way - sacrificially on OUR part?

 

[Allan]

You were actually malnourished? You had no means to go where you needed to go? Did you actually lose the apartment and were homeless?

That has nothing to do this. If if it does then explain it. Must a person be malnurished FIRST to begin tithing, or stranded, or homeless??

Money is what you are talking about and describing the supposed principle in terms of.

Money is applicable but not the only thing. I spoke of MY testimony and that which God did for ME. Are you saying God is limited to one way to bless? God gives in many forms to fulfill His Word. IF you are in need of food God can send you money or the food itself.

Any food can last the whole week, short of spoiling, if you limit it thus. And you state this ambiguously, specifically mentioning the hamburger and mac&cheese, appearing to imply it was eaten over 5 days for 3 meals a day. If that's not what you meant, how much other food was consumed?

I didn't imply I stated it. We ate ate till we were full and HAD NOTHING ELSE for 5 days according to each of our own statements and knowledge being around one another. We had nothing else to eat but that in the fridge and no money to contribute to buy food, and no car to go get any.

You hadn't seen them, but had you talked to them or written them? What did you mention about your living situation?

What do you think I ment by it?
We had not seen, talked to in ANY form to our reletives OR friends about our situation.

To be clear, are you claiming you and your roomies said absolutely nothing to anyone about your situation, and that no one visited and got the idea?

Why is that so hard to grasp for you. Yes, that is exactly what I am saying and putting it in print.

I got a credit from AT&T for being double-charged on a recent phone bill;and for the record, I haven't contributed anything for a couple of months to a church or ministry.

and your point?

If she included the phrase, "whatever he was going through," then she knew, or had reason to suspect, there was some need. And if she had "disowned" him 2 years before as a JW, that meant she was not giving him birthday or Christmas presents according to the demands of that religion. Was she perhaps trying to make up for that? And had she been in contact with your parents? who, even if you had not told them the specifics, knew how grateful you appeared when they brought the groceries to you?

Do you pray much? Are you ever lead to do or give something in to a person in which you have no knowledge of the situation. The fact that God is leading to do or give something most usually centers on the fact they are in or have a need.

She was no longer a JW but saved (according to her letter). As far as we knew it had nothing to do with 'back payment' for birthdays or missed Christmas. She said (to best of my recolection): "...she felt very burdened to send this to him right away. Not to buy his love but share Gods love with him and that whatever he was going through, God was about to reveal He is faithful to His word." Beyond that I don't know. No, she was not contacted. Joe didn't have her phone number to call so he wrote her back. His dad (his mother passed away) was bitter toward anything about God and had little relationship Joe after Joe graduated. But that aside, it was sent a week BEFORE all our decision to tithe at the apex of our problems.

Was the mechanic a complete stranger to you? [and I wonder why you capitalize Gas] He was actaully. Capitalize Gas? maybe I was emphasizing it - since he fixed my car for free AND "filled her up" so to speak. Or maybe it was a type-O. *shug*

I assume he had been out and applying. 2 weeks is hardly any kind of record.

If you live in a big city as a college student, it isn't hard to find a job (if you are will to most anything). So two weeks is pretty long. But even if it isn't God works His Will at His timing.

Was it his first raise? If not, how much was the previous one before you resolved to tithe?Second one, The first was his 60 day trial period of 15 cents. But he got THIS raise 5 months into work, before his yearly evaluation or next scheduled raise.

Word apparently got around some way. Since we don't see people who have all their needs and more being given food, clothing, and money "right and left," it's obvious you guys were known to need these things.

Wrong. Do you have ANY faith in the promises of God?? Seriously!! I can say I see God doing this and hear Gods people testifying of this daily or weekly depending on when I see them. I love the fact you can't handle the truth. I answer you, and you can't accept it. NNE knew our situation but God. And we were on our last legs (so to speak) on a slipper floor. It wasn't until we determinded to honor God by tithing that things not only turned around but we were able to bless others.

Does that blessed wife, and/or one or more of those children have an income of any significance?

Nope. Never has and she doesn't want to. I have been the SOLE provider of income. Ranging from 18,000 to almost 21,000. Right now we are just under 20,000 a year. My children are almost 5 (4 specifically) and under.

I don't fully understand this paragraph. What does Social Security have to do with records of what you give away? I thought they dealt only with payroll taxes of employee and employer, and benefit payouts.

I was hit head on by a drunk driver and became disabled at 21. So recieved Social Security. IF or when you can work, you must tell them so they can discontinue your Social Security unless both together is not greater than $700 month for a family (regardless of size). But they will still continue payments for 4 more months. I had asked if I would have to pay back the 'continued' payments since I now have a job. They stated 'No I would not". Well according to them after that four months had passed I need to now return the money or file stating I could not and then Prove that. That is why I had to turn over all my finacial records to show inability.

That is the essence of this perception of seeing your financial situation improve if you begin to tithe. You have to adjust some budget items, which could be done without a tithe having anything to do with it, coupled with a change in attitude which by itself results in a more serious approach to practical living. But so many people want to see this as a mystical happening. It can be fully explained, and it's not true that, regarding money, "you just don't know where it comes from!" as someone once told me. Yes, you DO know where it 'comes from,' if you only look.

Fine, then fully explain what happened in college as I and two others commited our money unto God by tithing. Not AFTER I was married but before we changed or thought anything about finances.

You can't explain it nor the myriads of others where by God blesses. You can explain MAYBE where it came from but NOT why at THAT moment it came.

I will have to see a scripture saying that.

So God delights in giver who does so in anger or contempt. Are you really trying THAT hard to disprove something. God does not recieve that which is not done in faith.

So it is with the tithe. Your attitude regarding your commitments to God will determine Gods reception of gift.[/quoet]

Exactly what do you mean? That He will send it back if you're not thinking the right thoughts?

No, that he will not recieve it, if it is not given in the right attitude. Prov 21:27, Isa 1:11-13, Mal 1 - just to name a few

Malachi was late, but he finally made it, as he always seems to. And I don't agree. That Mal. 3 passage says "Test me in this and SEE if I will not pour out on you a blessing...." If anything, that assumes a negative attitude toward tithes and offerings, which can be converted. How could that happen if God rejected the tithes and offerings he said bring in and then "SEE..."?

Because they were in SIN (in many areas, including the sacrifice). God addresses their sins, and THEN states if you bring...He will... but it was to be done with the antisipation of God proving Himself to be God. It was to be done in a right attitude of worship. Not just following along regardless of heart or righteous action. But WITH a right heart (obedience) making the action acceptable.

If it were that easy, the principle would be applied such that Christians wouldn't bother going to work; they'd just pull those puppet strings and reel in that money from "odd places." So instead of fulltime jobs there would be fulltime gospelling-- praise, witnessing, giving away that excess that came to us from odd places. Then there would surely be a bunch of odd places that went broke... at least until they learned how to reel in money from odder places.

Surely you can't be a dense as you make out in this. This is not even worth the time to write THIS.

Wouln't it be easier for God to just grab his 10% gratuity from the beginning, as Social Security grabs its off the top?

Sure, jsut as God could save everyone without the gospel, or heal everyone with prayer. But where is the devotion, obedience, sacrifice which manifest our love for Him?

Why not just jump right in and go to the ultimate sacrificial giving? Give ALL one's income. If God takes care of us and meets our needs, what is the problem with that?

Nothing. I given my whole paycheck before and God still provided my needs. But most people (like yourself) can't even grasp simple principles.