Tithing and Giving

[freeatlast]

We don't observe all those ceremonies, feasts, etc., because Paul specifically said they were gone for us.

This is a scenario out of my own mind:
Paul wrote that we should give "as God as prospered us." I can hear somebody say, "OK Paul, I understand that, but I have a question. What portion of our increase should we give?"

I'm wondering how Paul would address that question. Would he say, "Well, just give what you think is right."?

Or, might he say, "Well, we Jews, when we were under the law, we gave 10 per cent. But that's gone. And you're not Jewish. Just give what you can."

Or, might he say "You're not under the law any more, you're under grace. But I can tell you if you're looking for a guideline, I can point you to the tithe mentioned in the law."

Somehow, I have difficulty believing that Paul would tell his Gentile converts, "Sorry, you're on your own on this question."

Show me where the NT names what we are not to follow from the OT. Show me where it says the sabbath has passed away and we are not to keep it. Just believe what is written in the NT and stop trying to drag the OT into it. The tithe is gone and we are under free will cheerful heart giving with no pressure from anyone or anything.
KJV2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

ESV
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
The problem is that many teachers and Pastors have lied to the people for so long that the people are like those who are caught up in brain washing. The depth of it runs so deep it is difficult to believe the truth even when read in the bible.
Again I challenge anyone who is caught up in the tithe or who bases their giving on the tithe in any way to set it aside next time you give and follow the NT command for giving and give only from the heart the amount you want from a cheerful heart and see the true joy of giving. BY the way the word for cheerful is a word that means hilarious. It is like saying please! please! take this I want you to have it from the bottom of my heart. Give like that and learn the true joy of giving, but don’t give a penny more then you can do so cheerfully. NO GUILT GIVING!

 

[DaChaser1]

We don't observe all those ceremonies, feasts, etc., because Paul specifically said they were gone for us.

This is a scenario out of my own mind:
Paul wrote that we should give "as God as prospered us." I can hear somebody say, "OK Paul, I understand that, but I have a question. What portion of our increase should we give?"

I'm wondering how Paul would address that question. Would he say, "Well, just give what you think is right."?

Or, might he say, "Well, we Jews, when we were under the law, we gave 10 per cent. But that's gone. And you're not Jewish. Just give what you can."

Or, might he say "You're not under the law any more, you're under grace. But I can tell you if you're looking for a guideline, I can point you to the tithe mentioned in the law."

Somehow, I have difficulty believing that Paul would tell his Gentile converts, "Sorry, you're on your own on this question."

Isn't this concept of tithe or not really fall under "christian liberty", as the Lord will 'work with our giving" regardless if one feels under tithing still or not?

Still give proportionally, give min amts, whatever you feel is correct?

Also, wouldn't one with the Spiritual Gift of giving be one whose financial increase from the lord, means that God does require and expect more of them to giving than others?

 

[freeatlast]

Isn't this concept of tithe or not really fall under "christian liberty", as the Lord will 'work with our giving" regardless if one feels under tithing still or not?

Still give proportionally, give min amts, whatever you feel is correct?

Also, wouldn't one with the Spiritual Gift of giving be one whose financial increase from the lord, means that God does require and expect more of them to giving than others?

You are still trying to do it your way instead of the Lord's. Forget the tithe, totally, and obey the Lord on the matter
KJV2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

ESV
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

 

[DaChaser1]

You are still trying to do it your way instead of the Lord's. Forget the tithe, totally, and obey the Lord on the matter
KJV2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

ESV
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

One decides that the tithe is still in effect, another that it is not, another that it is useful as a strating point/refernce point

ALL are OK by God, as long as they give from a cheerful heart, with thanksgiving!

And we cannot start judging how others view this issue!
That applies to all of us here on BB!

 

[freeatlast]

One decides that the tithe is still in effect, another that it is not, another that it is useful as a strating point/refernce point

ALL are OK by God, as long as they give from a cheerful heart, with thanksgiving!

And we cannot start judging how others view this issue!
That applies to all of us here on BB!

No not true. We do not get to decide what is right. You are like those at the tower of babel. Everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. Here is what the truth is instead of your sin to do it your way.

You are still trying to do it your way instead of the Lord's. Forget the tithe, totally, and obey the Lord on the matter
KJV2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

ESV
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

 

[DaChaser1]

No not true. We do not get to decide what is right. You are like those at the tower of babel. Everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. Here is what the truth is instead of your sin to do it your way.

You are still trying to do it your way instead of the Lord's. Forget the tithe, totally, and obey the Lord on the matter
KJV2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

ESV
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

So you would stand in judgement for a fellow christian who just understands the lord as requiring something different than you would see it?

 

[gb93433]

Maybe somebody can explain this verse.

Luke 11:42, Jesus speaking:

Did not Jesus endorse tithing here?

The primary issue is greater than tithing. He dealt with their attitude and things which were far more important.

Luke wrote this Gospel several years later. Why didn't he insert a teaching that tithing no longer applies?

I am not sure but sometimes we do not deal with certain issues because we have bigger fish to fry. When I became a believer the man who discipled me never once criticized the RCC. He knew I had that as my religious background. What he did was to spend time reading and studying God's word. He taught me to share my faith. The rest is history. Things took care of themselves by reading and studying my Bible. Today I am far more knowledgeable than he is.

In I Cor 16:2 Paul wrote to the Corinthians that they should give "as the Lord as prospered you." Paul surely passed up an opportunity to say that tithing is no longer commanded. Why didn't he say, "proportional giving, but not necessarily a tenth."?

How the Lord has prospered you may have been exponential or it may have been negatively. Your bank account may have gone down because you were in the hospital for a year like one man I knew.

Since Paul claimed to have been personally taught by Jesus, did he just forget that Jesus told him the principle of the tithe was no longer in effect?

I am unable to think of anywhere that Jesus talked about doing away with the tithe. Could you give some scripture to support what you wrote about Jesus doing away with the tithe?

Jesus told the Pharisees they should tithe. Paul described himself as a "Pharisee of the Pharisees." If tithing is not a NT principle, then doesn't "as God as prospered you" mean whatever we want it to mean?

If we are to only give ten percent then that means I can have a disregard for anyone who would have need because my money is in the hands of those who received my tithe. It reminds me of the time I had some dialog with a man who came to the states from a very poor country. I asked him how he dealt with the poor on the street. I will never forget his answer. "You learn to ignore them."

In Deut 8:18 it says, "But you shall remember the Lord your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth, that He may confirm His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day.

Who am I to say the money God has given me is mine to keep and live lavishly while learning to ignore the helpless? Maybe I need to think that God gave me the money to be entrusted with it just so I could be a wise steward of it. I once worked for a man who gave away millions who was given the business he owned. All he had to do was to pay for the inventory as he sold it. The business was his. He treated the business as a gift t him from God. Every year he gave someone an almost new car that he had owned. He lived in a tract home that was about 1500 square feet in the city. I know for a fact that he gave a large sum of money to remodel a large building that had been a former communist government building for a church to won free and clear.

 

[freeatlast]

So you would stand in judgement for a fellow christian who just understands the lord as requiring something different than you would see it?

If a person has not been shown the scriptures then they are not responsible. However they have and reject them for their own way they condemn themselves in their rebellion.

 

[saturneptune]

I believe in tithing my full paycheck, but it is none of my business how someone else comes to the conclusion of how they tithe. The arguments about net, gross, including the benefits, including retirement accounts is for each individual heart, and between the individual and the Lord. I will go further. People who claim to give more that ten percent in money, but sit in the pews for decades, or stay home everytime it rains, or their fifth cousin has the sniffles, never go see anyone in the hospital, never visit the lost, never help with church ministries, are in essence buying a ticket of laziness. They might as well keep their money, as they are basically worthless to the work of the Lord. These people expect the special music to be sung, the pot lucks to be served and cleaned up after, the van to come by, the sanctuary be cleaned, and then turn right around and wonder why the pews ae empty. The last time they lifted a finger was when they put the fork to their mouths during the latest church dinner.

 

[HAMel]

I am asking about the idea of NT giving being a fulfillment of OT tithing in that giving cannot be done without the Holy Spirit being involved.

...zing! Right over many heads.

Ten percent tithing is what is taught in the Bible Colleges. Nothing wrong with giving 10% nor is there anything wrong with giving 20%, if you can afford it. Nothing wrong with giving 5% if that's all you have available.

Tithing and giving originates in the heart and blessed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[DaChaser1]

If a person has not been shown the scriptures then they are not responsible. However they have and reject them for their own way they condemn themselves in their rebellion.

If the saint gives his offerings unto the lord, from a heart of graciousness and with thanksgiving...

Desiring to give back to bless God and others...

IF the heart is right with God, assured in his heart doing the right thing before God...

If God is able to receive the tithe and offering, who are we to judge?

 

[freeatlast]

I am asking about the idea of NT giving being a fulfillment of OT tithing in that giving cannot be done without the Holy Spirit being involved.

...zing! Right over many heads.

Ten percent tithing is what is taught in the Bible Colleges. Nothing wrong with giving 10% nor is there anything wrong with giving 20%, if you can afford it. Nothing wrong with giving 5% if that's all you have available.

Tithing and giving originates in the heart and blessed by the Holy Spirit.

No, tithing originated by law and had nothing to do with heart. A person may willingly surrender to the practice, but it falls way short of the NT way to give. Take away any suggestion of an amount or percent and give as the Lord commanded, from a cheerful heart not a penny more and it allows us to see the truth about our hearts. The tithe will not do that. The NT church has been relieved of the burden of the tithe and given a greater way to give which is cheerful heart giving with no regards to a percent. I assure you that not all bible colleges teach the tithe as some know it is not for the church. However those that do are in sin as they disregard what scripture lays down for the believer to practice and be blessed by.

 

[freeatlast]

If the saint gives his offerings unto the lord, from a heart of graciousness and with thanksgiving...

Desiring to give back to bless God and others...

IF the heart is right with God, assured in his heart doing the right thing before God...

If God is able to receive the tithe and offering, who are we to judge?

[SIZE=+0]This is not about judging. That is satan's tool as he likes to make it seem like that so the truth is not spoken. This is about what scripture teaches. To go against scripture is sin even if we mean it for good. Those who base their giving on the tithe, teach it, or support it in any way, are in rebellion against the word of God if they have read what scripture says on the matter in the letter to the church.
The reason the tithe is taught is to keep a certain amount of power over the people who will fall for it. It is also taught by Pastors and teachers because of a lack of faith in the method the Lord has given the church.
With tithe teaching the leadership can at least expect a certain amount from those who have been deceived into following it. However with the NT way to give they are left totally to the mercies of the persons heart and trusting the Lord through their teaching to love the Lord. So any person who has read the NT commandment on how to give and gives based on any other method is in sin.

Now you mentioned that some people give from a tithe based giving from the heart. I agree some are sincere. They want to give and be obedient to their Lord, but they have been deceived into the tithing system so they give that way. However sincerity does not constitute right and once they have been shown scripture if they truly are sincere they will drop the tithing principle for God way while the rebellious and faithless will continue to follow their own way. Many people are sincerely wrong and just because they have a heart to carry out what they do in the mist of their error does not get them credit or honor.

It is like a woman who becomes a Pastor. She may no doubt be sincere, but she is sincerely wrong and I am convinced that while she may win some or even many to Christ she herself will have to answer for her rebellion. We are not getting rewards for rebellion, which is a lack of faith, even if it seems to do good. Judas may have won some to Christ but it gave him no standing with the Lord. Faith does and tithe giving is not from faith because faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God and God has not given the church to follow the tithe or its principles .
Any person who has been shown NT scripture on how God wants us to give and continues in the tithe is in sin and it does not matter how sincere they are, because they are sincerely wrong and losing the blessing and what the claim to be a blessing is self gratification in disguise of a blessing.
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[DaChaser1]

[SIZE=+0]This is not about judging. That is satan's tool as he likes to make it seem like that so the truth is not spoken. This is about what scripture teaches. To go against scripture is sin even if we mean it for good. Those who base their giving on the tithe, teach it, or support it ion any way, are in rebellion against the word of God if they have read what scripture says on the matter.
The reason the tithe is taught is to keep a certain amount of power over the people who will fall for it. It is also taught by Pastors and teachers because of a lack of faith in the method the Lord has given the church.
With tithe teaching the leadership can at least expect a certain amount from those who have been deceived into following it. However with the NT way to give they are left totally to the mercies of the persons heart and trusting the Lord through their teaching to love the Lord. So any person who has read the NT commandment on how to give and gives based on any other method is in sin.

Now you mentioned that some people give from a tithe based giving from the heart. I agree some are sincere. They want to give and be obedient to their Lord, but they have been deceived into the tithing system so they give that way. However sincerity does not constitute right. Many people are sincerely wrong and just because they have a heart to carry out what they do in the mist of their error does not get them credit or honor.

It is like a woman who becomes a Pastor. She may no doubt be sincere, but she is sincerely wrong and I am convinced that while she may win some or even many to Christ she herself will have to answer for her rebellion. Judas may have won some to Christ but it gave him no standing with the Lord. Faith does and tithe giving is not from faith because faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God and God has not given the church to follow the tithe or its principles .
Any person who has been shown NT scripture on how God wants us to give and continues in the tithe is in sin and it does not matter how sincere they are, because they are sincerely wrong and losing the blessing and what the claim to be a blessing is self gratification in disguise of a blessing.
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problem with your reasoning on this point is that this is merely a difference of personal interpretation, asome hold that we are under the tithe others do not!

IF one is fully persuaded and sure that their view is correct for them, than if they do either way in this, the Lord honors it, as that person is doing what is a "Grey area" up to individual understanding, as Lord looks at the heart intent/motivation!

 

[freeatlast]

problem with your reasoning on this point is that this is merely a difference of personal interpretation, asome hold that we are under the tithe others do not!

IF one is fully persuaded and sure that their view is correct for them, than if they do either way in this, the Lord honors it, as that person is doing what is a "Grey area" up to individual understanding, as Lord looks at the heart intent/motivation!

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]We are back to date rape. You think you can interpret the word of God as fits your desires. To you stop does not mean stop. I believe in just accepting what it says. To you no means full steam ahead or some other route around what is written. That is called rebellion (date rape), not faith.

Being fully persuaded does not mean it is of faith, just like a woman preacher. It means the person is in rebellion if they are not following what the scripture teaches. You time and again stand against the word of God for what you call your interpretation. Just believe what is written and stop rebellion. Choose faith not the burger king mentality.

[/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[gb93433]

No, tithing originated by law and had nothing to do with heart. A person may willingly surrender to the practice, but it falls way short of the NT way to give. Take away any suggestion of an amount or percent and give as the Lord commanded, from a cheerful heart not a penny more and it allows us to see the truth about our hearts. The tithe will not do that. The NT church has been relieved of the burden of the tithe and given a greater way to give which is cheerful heart giving with no regards to a percent. I assure you that not all bible colleges teach the tithe as some know it is not for the church. However those that do are in sin as they disregard what scripture lays down for the believer to practice and be blessed by.

I would disagree and agree in that Jesus held His followers to a higher standard than the religious leaders did. There is the letter of the Law and the spirit of the Law in which God gave it. Jesus reached back to the spirit of the law when he addressed the religious leaders of the day.

Remember the lady who gave her last coin? That was all she had.

 

[gb93433]

problem with your reasoning on this point is that this is merely a difference of personal interpretation, asome hold that we are under the tithe others do not!

IF one is fully persuaded and sure that their view is correct for them, than if they do either way in this, the Lord honors it, as that person is doing what is a "Grey area" up to individual understanding, as Lord looks at the heart intent/motivation!

I do not see a gray area as Jesus addressed the issue with the religious leaders of the day when he said, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

 

[freeatlast]

I would disagree and agree in that Jesus held His followers to a higher standard than the religious leaders did. There is the letter of the Law and the spirit of the Law in which God gave it. Jesus reached back to the spirit of the law when he addressed the religious leaders of the day.

Remember the lady who gave her last coin? That was all she had.

Guess what!!!? She was not following the tithing system, but those around her were! Between her and the tithers who got the blessing of the Lord? :BangHead: She was following the NT prescription even though she was not aware of it. We need to stop this sin of teaching the tithe or basing our giving on the tithe and have faith to give as God has given us.

 

[DaChaser1]

I do not see a gray area as Jesus addressed the issue with the religious leaders of the day when he said, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

I meant "Grey area' between sincewre christians whose interpretation of the Bible would to them support either us being still on tithe principle, or else under 'free will grace" giving!

IF fully persuaded nd done with sincere heart, think the Lord says 'yes" to both!

 

[gb93433]

Guess what!!!? She was not following the tithing system, but those around her were! Between her and the tithers who got the blessing of the Lord? :BangHead: She was following the NT prescription even though she was not aware of it. We need to stop this sin of teaching the tithe or basing our giving on the tithe and have faith to give as God has given us.

My point is that there was the spirit of the Law and not just the letter of the Law. The letter is just rules and regulations. The spirit extends beyond that and digs deeper.

We can look at a speed limit sign and see a rule that is not to be broken and if we did we could be punished or we can look at the same sign and realize the spirit of it is for our safety.