To Obey God rather than tradition is legalism? Really??

[DHK]

Albert Barnes is a Presbyterian Bible Commentator that I like - though I do not agree with him 100% - as you might well imagine.

Even so - I find this instructive.



I fully agree that this is "in the context" of approved Bible holy days - such as we find in Lev 23 - the annual feasts and festivals - annual Sabbaths etc.

Some would keep them all - and others would keep one above the other.

And this would be more common among the Jews than among the Gentiles.

But the Gentiles would follow the moral Law - applicable to all mankind. The one that even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits - includes the 4th commandment Sabbath.

The one that is found applicable to Gentiles in Isaiah 56.

The one where we see Gentiles in worship service on the SEVENTH day Sabbath in Acts 13, and Acts 17 and Acts 18.

The one where we see Gentiles in worship in Is 66:23 for all of eternity.

The one "Made for mankind" as Christ admits in Mark 2:27.

in Christ,

Bob

There is nothing moral about keeping the fourth commandment or the Jewish Sabbath.
Tell me the morality behind it. It is not part of the moral law.
For example, if I don't steal, don't commit adultery, etc., I will be a better person for it. That is true in any society.
But if I fail to keep the Jewish sabbath, how is that going to make me a better person? What is moral about keeping the Sabbath? It is not part of the moral law.

The other references you give in Isaiah. I will discuss those with you when you tell me why you and EGW believe that all of us Baptists and Protestants have the Mark of the Beast because we worship on Sunday and not Saturday.

 

[BobRyan]

There is nothing moral about keeping the fourth commandment or the Jewish Sabbath.
Tell me the morality behind it. It is not part of the moral law.
For example, if I don't steal, don't commit adultery, etc., I will be a better person for it. That is true in any society.
But if I fail to keep the Jewish sabbath, how is that going to make me a better person? What is moral about keeping the Sabbath? .

The moral law of God applies to all mankind.

Your argument is that worship to God on the day HE specifies (as compared to your man-made tradition) has no value - as compared to your acceptance of "do not steal".

James 2 says he who is guilty of breaking one of the commandments is guilty of all.

Being in rebellion is not morally just according to Christ in Matt 5.

Thus I find that the Baptist Confession of Faith - gets this part right.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The other references you give in Isaiah. I will discuss those with you when you tell me why you and EGW believe that all of us Baptists and Protestants have the Mark of the Beast because we worship on Sunday and not Saturday.

Quote:
Until you admit that you and EGW have labeled me and all other Baptists and Protestants as those having the mark of the beast, I have no need to discuss these passages with you. You are inconsistent.

Ellen White specifically stated that no one has the Mark of the Beast today - prior to still-future events to take place. Far be it from me to claim that she is wrong in that regard and to insist that people have it.

 

[DHK]

Ellen White specifically stated that no one has the Mark of the Beast today - prior to still-future events to take place. Far be it from me to claim that she is wrong in that regard and to insist that people have it.

First, EGW does not live "today."
Second, she is referring to a prophecy.
Third, you are referring to a prophecy.
Fourth, both prophecies refer to a future event.
Fifth, hypocritically you want to apply a truth from one prophecy to today, but not the other??
Now, why would that be?

 

[DrJamesAch]

The mark of the beast is clearly displayed as a testing insignia to determine, in part, whether one can buy or sell. Revelation 13:13-17. I can't really see a UN cop stopping someone at the door of the supermarket and asking "do you worship on the first or seventh day of the week" as a determining factor to permit entrance into the store. Revelation 13-14 clearly show that the mark is something that can be physically and visibly verified.

 

[DHK]

The moral law of God applies to all mankind.

Your argument is that worship to God on the day HE specifies (as compared to your man-made tradition) has no value - as compared to your acceptance of "do not steal".

James 2 says he who is guilty of breaking one of the commandments is guilty of all.

Being in rebellion is not morally just according to Christ in Matt 5.

Thus I find that the Baptist Confession of Faith - gets this part right.

in Christ,

Bob

You evaded my question and simply made excuses for not answering it.
It doesn't matter what others say.
What is moral about keeping the Sabbath?
How does it make me a better person?
If I worship on the five weekdays and rest on Saturday and Sunday would that not make me a better person because I will learn far more than you would?
The fact that I don't steal; don't commit adultery is moral. They make me a better person.
How does worshiping on any certain day make me a better person and relate to my morality. Please explain.

 

[Gup20]

Jesus made the case several times that it was "moral" to break the sabbath for various reasons.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:​

In this verse, Jesus uses the example of David, when he was on the run from Saul, how he went into the temple and the temple priests gave him the temple shewbread (and Goliath's sword) on the sabbath. Then in Mark 3, Jesus went on to heal a man on the sabbath.

Isa 1:11 "What makes you think I want all your sacrifices?" says the LORD. "I am sick of your burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fattened cattle. I get no pleasure from the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12 When you come to worship me, who asked you to parade through my courts with all your ceremony?
13 Stop bringing me your meaningless gifts; the incense of your offerings disgusts me! As for your celebrations of the new moon and the Sabbath and your special days for fasting— they are all sinful and false. I want no more of your pious meetings.​

 

[DHK]

Jesus made the case several times that it was "moral" to break the sabbath for various reasons.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:​

Jesus was teaching quite the opposite. He said he was the Lord of the Sabbath; not that the Sabbath was the Lord of him. Take everything into context. Therefore the sabbath was was made for mankind, and not the other way around. Man was not be a slave to the sabbath.

I have already answered this. The Sabbath was made for man.
If I buy a computer FOR my son, then the computer is for my son. The computer does not rule my son, but my son is owner of the computer. The computer is FOR my son. He does what he wants with it.
The sabbath is for mankind, to worship as he wants. He is not a slave to it. He doesn't keep it legalistically; Jesus didn't. He and his disciples picked corn on the sabbath, healed on the sabbath, etc. They violated the traditions of the Rabbis who made the sabbath a slave to them.

In this verse, Jesus uses the example of David, when he was on the run from Saul, how he went into the temple and the temple priests gave him the temple shewbread (and Goliath's sword) on the sabbath. Then in Mark 3, Jesus went on to heal a man on the sabbath.

Further proof that the sabbath is for man, and not the other way around. You are making my point.
​

Isa 1:11

"What makes you think I want all your sacrifices?" says the LORD. "I am sick of your burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fattened cattle. I get no pleasure from the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12 When you come to worship me, who asked you to parade through my courts with all your ceremony?
13 Stop bringing me your meaningless gifts; the incense of your offerings disgusts me! As for your celebrations of the new moon and the Sabbath and your special days for fasting— they are all sinful and false. I want no more of your pious meetings.

This sabbath was given to the Israelites. You will never find any command to the Gentile Christians that they are to keep the Sabbath. Exodus 31 explains that it is a sign between Jehovah and Israel, and for their generations forever.
There is nothing moral about keeping the Sabbath. It is not part of the moral law.

Think of it this way.
God has written his moral law on every man's heart. Men every where no instinctively that it is wrong to kill, wrong to steal, wrong to commit adultery. That is God's moral law.
But they don't know instinctively that it is wrong to break the Sabbath. There is nothing immoral about not worshiping on the Sabbath for a tribal people in Africa; but they know it is wrong to murder. Not to keep the Sabbath has nothing to do with morals.

 

[Gup20]

DHK, I think you misread - I said that it WAS moral to break the sabbath.

I agree with everything you've said.

 

[DHK]

DHK, I think you misread - I said that it WAS moral to break the sabbath.

I agree with everything you've said.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I said.
What is moral about keeping the Sabbath?
What is immoral about breaking the Sabbath?
The Sabbath or fourth commandment, according to Exodus 31, is for the Jews. It is irrelevant to the Gentile Christian.

 

[Gup20]

Perhaps you misunderstood what I said.
What is moral about keeping the Sabbath?
What is immoral about breaking the Sabbath?
The Sabbath or fourth commandment, according to Exodus 31, is for the Jews. It is irrelevant to the Gentile Christian.

Ok, I see what you are getting at. When said "it is moral" what I mean was that it was not "immoral"... but I don't like to use double negatives.

I often see the law similarly to the way I see light and temperature. Darkness is not a thing, it is the absence of light. Cold is not a thing, it is the absence of heat. Similarly, I was using the term "moral" as that which does not break the law. A transgressor of moral law would be an immoral person. A person who sins is a sinner. To NOT be a sinner, do not break the law. To be moral, simply do not transgress morality. I see "moral" as containing both positively moral things and neutrally moral things.

Breaking the sabbath is not positively moral, nor is it positively immoral. Therefore, in the absence of being positively immoral, I call it moral.

But I agree with you that there is nothing immoral about failing to keep the sabbath, and I agree with you that it is irrelevant to the Christian.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ok, I see what you are getting at. When said "it is moral" what I mean was that it was not "immoral"... but I don't like to use double negatives.

I often see the law similarly to the way I see light and temperature. Darkness is not a thing, it is the absence of light. Cold is not a thing, it is the absence of heat. Similarly, I was using the term "moral" as that which does not break the law. A transgressor of moral law would be an immoral person. A person who sins is a sinner. To NOT be a sinner, do not break the law. To be moral, simply do not transgress morality. I see "moral" as containing both positively moral things and neutrally moral things.

Breaking the sabbath is not positively moral, nor is it positively immoral. Therefore, in the absence of being positively immoral, I call it moral.

But I agree with you that there is nothing immoral about failing to keep the sabbath, and I agree with you that it is irrelevant to the Christian.

Any "law" of God by definition is moral. The morality does not have to be inherent in the "law" for it to be "moral." It is "immoral" to violate it simply because God commanded it. There is nothing moral or immoral about 24 hours of time or any period of time but the fact that God commanded a certain observation of a certain period of time makes it moral due to the ORIGIN of that law because violating is defiance against the Person who commanded it.

 

[Gup20]

There is nothing moral or immoral about 24 hours of time or any period of time but the fact that God commanded a certain observation of a certain period of time makes it moral due to the ORIGIN of that law because violating is defiance against the Person who commanded it.

Commanded whom? Jews or Gentiles also?

We agree that one cannot lose their salvation over failing to keep the sabbath day, correct?

 

[The Biblicist]

Commanded whom? Jews or Gentiles also?

We agree that one cannot lose their salvation over failing to keep the sabbath day, correct?

Jesus said that the original Sabbath in Genesis 2:3-3 "was made FOR MAN"! He did not say "FOR ISRAEL" or "FOR JEWS" or "FOR GOD." You cannot change that fact by no amount of rationalizations.

Second, before God ever gave it to Israel in Covenant form in Exodus 20 he condemned them for violating "my Sabbath" in Exodus 16. Tell me where did they receive that command prior to Exodus 20????????

 

[Gup20]

Jesus said that the original Sabbath in Genesis 2:3-3 "was made FOR MAN"! He did not say "FOR ISRAEL" or "FOR JEWS" or "FOR GOD." You cannot change that fact by no amount of rationalizations.

I see the basis for the Sabbath, but can you show me which verse says "sabbath" and which verse says "for man"? I don't see any commandments given regarding the sabbath in Genesis 2.

Second, before God ever gave it to Israel in Covenant form in Exodus 20 he condemned them for violating "my Sabbath" in Exodus 16. Tell me where did they receive that command prior to Exodus 20????????

Did you read Exodus 16? Moses commands the people to gather twice as much on the 6th day and not to gather on the 7th. It is only when people don't listen to him and go out to gather on the 7th day and find no manna that God asks them how long they would refuse His commandments. Note that he also commanded them in Exodus 16 to eat everything they gathered and not leave anything until they next day. Surely you're not suggesting that this was to be the universal law to all of mankind... not to store food until the next day?

Twice Moses gives commandment from God regarding the manna and says not to gather on the 7th day.

Interestingly enough, Exodus 16 is the first time the word Sabbath is used in scripture. Note God says:

Exd 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.​

This is consistent with Jesus' statements that Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The fact that this was instituted by Moses is demonstrable of The Law, for this is what Moses represents in scripture.

For example, Moses not being able to enter the "promised land" because of one act of disobedience is consistent with the way The Law works, yet this was not part of the 10 commandments, or the moral or social laws. Joshua (which is allegorically Jesus) lead them into the promised land.

 

[DHK]

Jesus said that the original Sabbath in Genesis 2:3-3 "was made FOR MAN"! He did not say "FOR ISRAEL" or "FOR JEWS" or "FOR GOD." You cannot change that fact by no amount of rationalizations.

Second, before God ever gave it to Israel in Covenant form in Exodus 20 he condemned them for violating "my Sabbath" in Exodus 16. Tell me where did they receive that command prior to Exodus 20????????

Jesus said that all creation is made for man. Are we to worship all creation?
Your arguments fail miserably.

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus said that all creation is made for man. Are we to worship all creation?
Your arguments fail miserably.

The statement explicitly says "the Sabbath was made for man"! The context is dealing with the Sabbath not creation.

Where can you find IN THAT CONTEXT a similar statement about creation?

Where did the command originate for Israel's disobedience to the Sabbath in Exodus 16 four chapters previous to giving the fourth commandment to Israel? I suggest it came from Genesis 2:2-3 handed down from generation to generation to Moses before Exodus 20 command. If you disagree, then point to any other source.

 

[DHK]

The statement explicitly says "the Sabbath was made for man"! The context is dealing with the Sabbath not creation.

Where can you find IN THAT CONTEXT a similar statement about creation?

Where did the command originate for Israel's disobedience to the Sabbath in Exodus 16 four chapters previous to giving the fourth commandment to Israel? I suggest it came from Genesis 2:2-3 handed down from generation to generation to Moses before Exodus 20 command. If you disagree, then point to any other source.

Genesis 2:2,3 There is no command in those verses.
Exodus 20:7-11. This is a command given to Israel alone as verified in Exodus 31.
Mark 7. The Sabbath was given for man; FOR him, not that man should be a slave to the sabbath. Man was not given to the sabbath; but the sabbath was given for man; just like a father gives a gift for a son. The gift doesn't rule over the son. He does what he wants with it.
The Gentile believer has never been subjected to the Sabbath; it was given to the Jew.

 

[Gup20]

Where did the command originate for Israel's disobedience to the Sabbath in Exodus 16 four chapters previous to giving the fourth commandment to Israel? I suggest it came from Genesis 2:2-3 handed down from generation to generation to Moses before Exodus 20 command. If you disagree, then point to any other source.

Exd 16:23 And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, [which is] the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
27 And it came to pass, [that] there went out [some] of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

The command originated in Exodus 16:23. God complains about their disobedience ONLY after Moses had given them the command. Verse 23 is also the first time the word "sabbath" is used in scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

In Mark 7 God says it is wrong to obey tradition instead of the Commandments of God also called "the Word of God" Mark 7:13.

But there are "some" who would argue that it is wrong - in fact legalism, salvation by works - to obey the Word of God as God gave it - rather than tradition.

For example - God's Word says -

Exodus 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Sixdays you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made theheavens and the earth, the sea and allthat is in them, and rested on the seventh day;therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day andmade it holy[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]


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http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2006881&highlight=wrong#post2006881
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2006881&postcount=75

The Biblicist;2006881


1. You will NEVER find the words "of the week" in any account of the creation Sabbath law anywhere in Scripture - NEVER!

2. SDA and other Saturdarians use logical inference to justify restricting the Sabbath law to the seventh day "of the week." There rationale goes something like this. Our week is based upon the first seven days of creation, therefore, since the seventh day in creation is the Sabbath it follows that the Sabbath is the seventh day "of the week." This is faulty logic as I will point out shortly.


8. It is now wrong to apply it to the seventh day "of the week" as it has been applied by God to the first day "of the week" first by type in the Messianic feasts of Lev. 23 and Lev. 25 and by Messianic prophecy (Psa. 118:20-24 with Acts 4:10-11; Mk. 16:9; heb. 4:2-11) and by Messianic example (Jn. 20; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Rev. 1:10) and by historic custom consistenly after the aposolic age right up to BEFORE Constantine.

9. The "first day of the week" is preceded by six working days, making the "first day of the week" the seventh day Sabbath in that PATTERN of seven.

10. The permanent application to the "first day of the week" is a BETTER Sabbath day observance because it commemorates the greater and finished work of redemption wiht the resurrection of Christ and a BETTER sinless creation of a new heaven and earth to come that begins in the EIGHTH and eternal age to come.

====================

By contrast -

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of Godin order to keep your tradition.
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER';(Exodus 20:12) and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

===========================

Once your theology gets so turned around sideways that you actually argue that to obey the Word of God over the tradition of man is "wrong" or "works of the law" or ... shouldn't that be a big red flag that "something is wrong" in your theology?

Thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

You CANNOT pick and choose the Covenant to be under, IF you insist to have the Sabbath as binging to yourself as it was unto Isreal, you MUST also agree to keep all the Mosaic provosions of the Law mpw!

can you agree to do that, in order to "keep saved?"