To Obey God rather than tradition is legalism? Really??

[DHK]

Hint - count the number of times Moody mentions the Sabbath - to see what HE is claiming about HIS views of it.

You claim it is not honest to state that Moody claims to accept, defend promote and affirm the Sabbath of the 4th commandment.

Now let's read the text "And see" if that claim of yours holds up to the actual facts.

As long as you continue to quote Moody I will allege that you are dishonest man and misrepresent a man who believes doctrine totally opposite of yours. You should be ashamed of yourself. Why don't you read the rest of the sermon to see what he really believes??

Here is where you are dishonest:
1. Moody defines Sabbath as the first day of the week, or the Christian Sabbath.

2. Moody, himself, works on "the very Sabbath" he advocates others to rest.

3. Sunday, the Christian Sabbath, is a day of worship. That is what Moody is advocating, to set aside a day for Christians to worship.

4. Moody does not keep the Sabbath in a legalistic way like the SDA's. It is a day set aside for worship. It is a principle of setting aside one day in seven.

5. It is not a specific day that is even important here. Moody works on Sunday, and rests on Saturday. He sets one day out of seven for rest. How is that keeping the Sabbath except to rest on one day out of seven.

There is no way that he believes in keeping the Sabbath in the way that you have been saying. You have been dishonestly misrepresenting him. I request that you stop doing so.
Deliberately misrepresentation is slander. It is sin.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
You have only copy and pasted an introduction.
You don't know what Moody believes because you won't read the rest of the sermon. You are still ignorant as to what he believes on the sabbath. What a pity that you misrepresent him so.

Hint - count the number of times Moody mentions the Sabbath - to see what HE is claiming about HIS views of it.

You claim it is not honest to state that Moody claims to accept, defend promote and affirm the Sabbath of the 4th commandment.

Now let's read the text "And see" if that claim of yours holds up to the actual facts.

hint:
The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away [FONT=&quot]with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?[/FONT]

As long as you continue to quote Moody I will allege that you are dishonest man

As if that is actually working for you.

But the unbiased objective reader can actually "read" in the text what Moody says HE is claiming on this subject.

HE claims it is the Sabbath given to mankind at Eden.

HE claims "The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away [FONT=&quot]with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?[/FONT]"

That is an inconvenient detail in a quote of MOODY - not a quote of ME.

Every time this inconvenient fact comes up - you solution cannot be to call me names for bringing it up. Is simply does not work.

and misrepresent a man who believes doctrine totally opposite of yours.

Here you are totally wrong.

SOME of what Moody believes on this subject IS TRUE even by MY standards.

Namely these points.

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away [FONT=&quot]with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"[/FONT]

The part I have said FROM The START that I do not agree with - is the idea of changing/editing the Law of God to point to some other day - via man-made-tradition.

What is your response to the up front - obvious - irrefutable statements I keep making in that regard?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

As if that solves your problem or even makes sense.


Here is your own words - edited to make that actually correct from my POV:
1. Moody defines THE CURRENT form of Sabbath AFTER the Cross as the first day of the week, or the Christian Sabbath and BEFORE the cross as Saturday - the Sabbath as God gave it in Gen 2:3.

2. Moody, himself, works on "the very Sabbath" (SUNDAY) he advocates others to rest and HE claims SATURDAY as HIS Sabbath.

3. Sunday, the Christian Sabbath, is a day of worship. That is what Moody is advocating, to set aside a day for Christians to worship.

So what we see is that your list is almost the same as the one that I have been promoting for Moody - but you once again leave out "inconvenient details" even in your list.




4. Moody does not keep the Sabbath in a legalistic way and neither do SDA's. It is a day set aside for worship.

Moody is WRONG in one point: The Bible teaches that the Sabbath is NOT just a principle of setting aside one day in seven where MAN picks the day. It is the principle that GOD ALONE can choose the day, can sanctify the day can make it a binding Bible command.


5. Moody's one error is that he imagines that the Sabbath is not a specific day that is even important here. Moody works on Sunday, and rests on Saturday. He sets one day out of seven for rest. How is that keeping the Sabbath except to rest on one day out of seven.

DHK asks

There is no way that he believes in keeping the Sabbath in the way that you have been saying.

In your model of "making stuff up" you "make up" the idea that I have ever said that there is no difference in my keeping the Sabbath and the concept of "editing -changing- bending" the Sabbath to point to another day - that the Baptist Confession of Faith - and D.L. Moody have promoted.

You have been dishonestly misrepresenting ME.

I request that you stop doing so.

Deliberately misrepresentation is slander. It is sin.

The debates I have had with Biblicist and repeatedly with you SHOW time and time again - where I differ with Moody and the Baptist Confession of Faith - on that ONE point.

But on many of their other points - where you are at war with them and I am not - I DO agree with them.

Obviously.

Incredibly obvious - beyond all doubt to the objective unbiased reader.

Each time I post this inconvenient detail - you ignore it and then "circle back" to calling me "dishonest" making your tactic of "making stuff up" about me claiming that Moody has the same "no change in the day from the one that God gave in Gen 2:3: as I do. A point claim I have never made - but one that you conjure up so that you can accuse me of being dishonest - for doing what you only wish to imagine that I might do.

NEVER do you provide a quote for that false accusation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What I can't understand is the fact that when I first quoted Moody you trashed him and claimed he had little education, was just an uniformed evangelists and you don't care that your views are at war with his clear statement that ""The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away [FONT=&quot]with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"

(Which is the very part of Moody's beliefs I DO accept).

Now you seem bent on trying to get your views to match with Moody's on the subject of the Sabbath.

But the "truth" is that the only match is that you like those Moody is condemning in the text of HIS sermon - keep week-day-1 but not as Sabbath.

Thus both of you want week-day-1 kept in some fashion but your model is the very one Moody's sermon is hammering.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"

in Christ,

Bob


[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

One more point about the OP and title of this thread --

Originally Posted by DHK
Jesus rose again on the first day of the week.
In Acts 20:7 the believers met with Paul on the first day of the week.
However, that seems to be irrelevant seeing that the early church met every day of the week, and that no day was above another and every day was esteemed alike.

Some of the Christians living a couple centuries ago referred to Sunday as "the Christian Sabbath," but that was a needless appellation. There is no command in the Bible to worship on any one certain day of the week. The worship on Sunday is simply by tradition, and for no other reason. There is no command to worship on the first day of the week.
[FONT=&quot]http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...=87193&page=26


================================================== =======
from[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: [/FONT]http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2011586&postcount=65 [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK

My beliefs, therefore, are very much like Moody's.
You have been dishonest to use Moody as an example of one who has kept the Sabbath. He does not keep the Sabbath any more than I do. I vehemently oppose "Sabbath-keepers."

That is the very problem I expose in the title of this thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

One more point about the OP and title of this thread --


[/FONT]

That is the very problem I expose in the title of this thread.

in Christ,

Bob

If you know history you will remember that two or three centuries ago, when much of this land was being settled, it was popular to have circuit riding preachers. There were many Baptists and Methodists that took up this cause. They rode to places that were hard to get to. And when they got there they would gather the people together and have a meeting. It didn't matter if it was Sunday or not. If the preacher was there they would assemble for a meeting.
After a day or two or rest the preacher would ride off to another town to preach there. Services were not always on Sunday. They were when the preacher came.

I know of a place where one pastor takes care of five different churches or congregations. He preaches in one on Monday, another on Tuesday, another on Wednesday, and so on.
The Lord is not confined to days. We live in a day and age of grace. There is no command to keep the Sabbath. There is a command to have a day of rest. Moody preached that and practiced that. Because you take his sermon out of context I can't help that. He rested on Saturday and preached on Sunday, much like a circuit riding preacher would do.

But to those would be ignorant, let them be ignorant still.
He taught the principle of one day out of seven to be a day of rest.
You are blinded to that fact.

I have only defended this man because you keep using him as an example of what he does not teach. That is truly sad. It is like the Charismatic that was on here that kept using Moody for an example as one who spoke in tongues. She also needed correction. When will people stop maligning this man.

 

[DHK]

NEVER do you provide a quote for that false accusation.

in Christ,

Bob

You need to read his sermon in its entirety.
At the end it says this:

Sabbath-breaker, are you ready to step into the scales? PUBLISHER'S NOTE: The author of this book was not an advocate of the tenets of Seventh Day Adventism.

Note: When reading Moody's sermon on keeping the Sabbath, it would be good to substitute the word "Sunday" for "Sabbath," for that is what Moody means. To him the Sabbath = Sunday. This would cause less confusion in the reader's mind as he studies it.

http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/Moody.Ten.Commandments.html

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

... all per accident ... sorry.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

As long as you continue to quote Moody I will allege that you are dishonest man and misrepresent a man who believes doctrine totally opposite of yours. You should be ashamed of yourself. Why don't you read the rest of the sermon to see what he really believes??

Here is where you are dishonest:
1. Moody defines Sabbath as the first day of the week, or the Christian Sabbath.

2. Moody, himself, works on "the very Sabbath" he advocates others to rest.

3. Sunday, the Christian Sabbath, is a day of worship. That is what Moody is advocating, to set aside a day for Christians to worship.

4. Moody does not keep the Sabbath in a legalistic way like the SDA's. It is a day set aside for worship. It is a principle of setting aside one day in seven.

5. It is not a specific day that is even important here. Moody works on Sunday, and rests on Saturday. He sets one day out of seven for rest. How is that keeping the Sabbath except to rest on one day out of seven.

There is no way that he believes in keeping the Sabbath in the way that you have been saying. You have been dishonestly misrepresenting him. I request that you stop doing so.
Deliberately misrepresentation is slander. It is sin.

There is no way that Moody or the other ‘divines’ of Christianity believed in keeping the Sabbath in the way or day that God “in times past through the prophets” as well as “in these last days by the Son”, has been speaking.

As long as Christians continue to quote Moody or any other ‘divine’, it must be assumed they are dishonest with themselves and misrepresent what these ‘divines’ intended to teach. They in fact abuse the old sages’ ‘Sabbath-doctrine’ which was totally opposite theirs of now-a-days. Christians who opportunistically still rely on these old ‘divines’ for the FALSE Sunday is the Sabbath arrogation should be ashamed of themselves. Why don't they read the BIBLE to see for themselves what it really teaches regarding the Sabbath which “God thus concerning the Seventh Day” and Sabbath, “spake”? ---ONCE FOR EVER in his Written Word “BY THE SON, SPAKE”??

Instead Sunday propagandists dishonestly misrepresent what “God … spoke”. I hope and pray ---and work that it might stop some day; but it sure doesn’t look like it’s going to stop. Nevertheless, THEIR, deliberately misrepresentation of Scripture is slander; it is sin against God’s own Word, what against the old divines’.

Here is where Sunday proponents are dishonest and keep on to slander Scripture:
They define Sabbath as the First Day of the week, or, ‘the Christian Sunday’.

They work on the very day they advocate is their ‘Sabbath’ or ‘Rest-Day’ and teach others to follow their own example.

HAVING NO SINGLE SCRIPTURE they all unanimously but groundless and falsely allege that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath and is to be set aside as a day of worship for Christians. Whether that is what Moody and others advocated or not, many false voices make a choir the falser the bigger.

4. Moody nor the other of divines kept the Sabbath. And no one of them kept Sunday in any LESS legalistic way than Sabbath keepers who depend on the Law for their Sabbath, for their Sabbath beliefs, or, for their Sabbath-keeping. Simply because Sunday is not a day which the Scriptures Old or New Testament, ‘set aside for worship’. It is a VAIN “principle of the world”, ‘stoicheia tou kosmou’, to ---as long as it is the First Day of the week’, ‘set aside one day in seven’. It is no ‘principle’ of the Scriptures.

Here is where Sunday proponents are dishonest and so keep on to slander Scripture that it is impossible to understand anything they say, like this classic example, <<It is not a specific day that is even important here. Moody works on Sunday, and rests on Saturday. He sets one day out of seven for rest. How is that keeping the Sabbath except to rest on one day out of seven.>>

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If you know history you will remember that two or three centuries ago, when much of this land was being settled, it was popular to have circuit riding preachers. There were many Baptists and Methodists that took up this cause. They rode to places that were hard to get to. And when they got there they would gather the people together and have a meeting. It didn't matter if it was Sunday or not. If the preacher was there they would assemble for a meeting.
After a day or two or rest the preacher would ride off to another town to preach there. Services were not always on Sunday. They were when the preacher came.

Now why and how the heck won't Sunday advocates apply this good advice to their interpretation of 1Corinthians 16:1-3?!

 

[DHK]

Here is where Sunday proponents are dishonest and so keep on to slander Scripture that it is impossible to understand anything they say, like this classic example, <<It is not a specific day that is even important here. Moody works on Sunday, and rests on Saturday. He sets one day out of seven for rest. How is that keeping the Sabbath except to rest on one day out of seven.>

I totally agree. Now, if Bob could see and understand that we would have some common ground.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I totally agree. Now, if Bob could see and understand that we would have some common ground.
[/SIZE]

I could not help, but laugh, dear DHK, please forgive me ...

 

[BobRyan]

I There is no command to keep the Sabbath. There is a command to have a day of rest. Moody preached that and practiced that.

Let's see what Moody said - by letting him speak for himself.

=======================================

1. Moody vehemently opposes "Sabbath breakers" in his sermon - read it.

DWIGHT L. MOODY

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17 ​

.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

​

THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly?You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales?Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was.I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

It isjust as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins withthe word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stoneat Sinai.How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

[FONT=&quot]=======================================

1. Moody claims the 4th commandment - Sabbath was given to MANKIND in Eden. So does the Baptist Confession of Faith - by contrast DHK thinks it was only given to Israel - starting at Sinai.

2. Moody claims that the Sabbath - of the 4th commandment REMAINS in effect from Eden until today and is just as needful today as it ever was. By contrast DHK condemns Sabbath keepers.

3. Moody claims that Sabbath breakers who insist that the 4th commandment Sabbath was done away with have no grounds to stand on. DHK claims that he vehemently opposes Sabbath KEEPERS.


First we notice that Moody is not preaching against 7th - day Sabbath keepers - but against his fellow Sunday-going Christians that attend church on Sunday but then deny that the full force of the Sabbath commandment remains fully applicable to the Christian on Sunday as it did as God gave it to mankiind on Saturday - in Eden.

In other words - he is going after your argument DHK - this is not a sermon bad mouthing those who keep Sabbath on Saturday. In fact Moody is arguing FOR the keeping of the Sabbath commanmdent as a full day of rest and worship - in the same way as the Saturday-Sabbath keeping Christian would have been keeping it in his day - only Moody would have them do it on week-day-1 when convenient.

On all these points - Moody differs with your view.

Where I obviously differ with Moody is the part where he imagines that this eternal law of God is up for bending-wrenching-editing to point to week-day-1.

other than that - the basic points about this being the Sabbath itself starting in Gen 2:3 - applicable to all mankind and still binding on the saints today - I agree with fully.

I just don't accept the man-made-tradition of bending that very Sabbath - to point to week-day-1.

[/FONT]I have said this a few dozen times on this board by now - but apparently some love to pretend that it was never said.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Let's see what Moody said - by letting him speak for himself.

=======================================

1. Moody vehemently opposes "Sabbath breakers" in his sermon - read it.

DWIGHT L. MOODY

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17 ​

.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

​

THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly?You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment?

Let's start here.
"Can you say that you observe 'Sunday' properly?"
IOW Have you set apart Sunday for a day of worship?
Are you obeying this commandment by setting apart Sunday for going to church and worshiping the Lord.
--This was Moody's meaning.

O

r do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day

, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales?Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

The question he just asked is "Where were you last Sunday?" How did you spend it? Were you in your own local church? We you sitting under the preaching of the Word listening to your pastor?
Did you get that first question, Bob? Or do you neglect the house of God on the SUNDAY day?'
Sabbath = Sunday according to Moody.

I honestly believe that

this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was.

I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

Do you see that? It has been freed from the scribes and Pharisees. It is no longer Saturday. It is Sunday. It is not legalistic. He says it is binding in the sense that every Christian ought to be in the house of the Lord on Sundays. Every believer on this board believes. I also believe the same thing. It is called faithfulness, not legalism.

"

The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

It isjust as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

"Practical and necessary!" That is right! It is practical for our practical Christian living. It is necessary for learning Christian doctrine. We need both. The verse is not a command to keep it.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since

. The fourth commandment begins with

the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stoneat Sinai.How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

The only way that it is binding is that it is a day of rest. One day out of seven ought to be set aside for rest, and that day ought to be a day to worship the Lord, to come to the house of God. It is a principle, not a command. The principle--that God rested one day out of seven--is that which has been in force. That is the only thing one can deduce from Genesis.

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

Let's examine that statement:
"If you give up 'Sunday' the church goes." Very obvious, isn't it? We need people to come to church or there won't be any church!!:tonofbricks: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. That is what Moody was preaching. When you read Sabbath, read Sunday!

[FONT=&quot]

1. Moody claims the 4th commandment - Sabbath was given to MANKIND in Eden. So does the Baptist Confession of Faith - by contrast DHK thinks it was only given to Israel - starting at Sinai.

Moody's sabbath is Sunday. Moody believes that believers ought to go to church on Sunday; so do I. That is what he was teaching, and that is all.

2. Moody claims that the Sabbath - of the 4th commandment REMAINS in effect from Eden until today and is just as needful today as it ever was. By contrast DHK condemns Sabbath keepers.

Moody used every one of those Scriptures to refer to Sunday for believers. The OT Scriptures he used as one day out of seven as a statement of principle. He never used it to refer to the Saturday Sabbath or even the Jewish Sabbath--never!! Throughout his message he spoke of the obligation of Christians to attend church on Sundays. That is what his message was about!!!!!

3. Moody claims that Sabbath breakers who insist that the 4th commandment Sabbath was done away with have no grounds to stand on. DHK claims that he vehemently opposes Sabbath KEEPERS.

No, Moody claimed that those who neglected to observe Sunday services had no ground to stand on. They need to be faithful to the preaching of the Word on Sundays. There is no excuse to miss church on Sunday, put into today's language. Sabbath means Sunday. But Bob doesn't want to admit that.

First we notice that Moody is not preaching against 7th - day Sabbath keepers - but against his fellow Sunday-going Christians that attend church on Sunday but then deny that the full force of the Sabbath commandment remains fully applicable to the Christian on Sunday as it did as God gave it to mankiind on Saturday - in Eden.

Moody was simply preaching about attending church on Sunday and being faithful about this obligation. That is what the Sabbath Day was to Moody--Sunday. Keeping the Sabbath was simply going to church on Sunday, and Christians should not fail in their obligation to do so.

In other words - he is going after your argument DHK - this is not a sermon bad mouthing those who keep Sabbath on Saturday. In fact Moody is arguing FOR the keeping of the Sabbath commanmdent as a full day of rest and worship - in the same way as the Saturday-Sabbath keeping Christian would have been keeping it in his day - only Moody would have them do it on week-day-1 when convenient.

Moody rested on Saturday, but worked on Sunday. However he advocated everyone else to rest on Sunday. Why? Sunday is what he called "the Christian Sabbath." That is the day they gathered for church services, for worship. But since Moody preached then, or worked, he would rest on another day. The day of rest did not matter. The principle was one day out of seven, (any day), as long as there was one must be kept. The preference was Sunday as a day of worship. Sabbath meant Sunday, all the time, in Moody's mind.

On all these points - Moody differs with your view.

It is obvious the disagreement lies with you.

[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

I said

[FONT=&quot].

Where I obviously differ with Moody is the part where he imagines that this eternal law of God is up for bending-wrenching-editing to point to week-day-1.

other than that - the basic points about this being the Sabbath itself starting in Gen 2:3 - applicable to all mankind and still binding on the saints today - I agree with fully.

I just don't accept the man-made-tradition of bending that very Sabbath - to point to week-day-1.

[/FONT]I have said this a few dozen times on this board by now - but apparently some love to pretend that it was never said.

You respond by saying in essence "yes but what you missed is that after the cross Moody says the Sabbath commandment now points to Sunday - week - day 1".

Your response is written as if you are not even reading the post.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

I said



You respond by saying in essence "yes but what you missed is that after the cross Moody says the Sabbath commandment now points to Sunday - week - day 1".

Your response is written as if you are not even reading the post.

in Christ,

Bob

Then admit it. Moody does not believe in keeping the Sabbath, and never did.

 

[BobRyan]

Then admit it. Moody does not believe in keeping the Sabbath, and never did.

Not if you take his own words where he Condemns Sabbath breakers and also he condemns those who insist that the Sabbath Commandment has ended.

I guess if you ignore enough details - it looks as you say.

==================================================

Having said that --

[FONT=&quot]
Where I obviously differ with Moody is the part where he imagines that this eternal law of God is up for bending-wrenching-editing to point to week-day-1.

other than that - the basic points about this being the Sabbath itself starting in Gen 2:3 - applicable to all mankind and still binding on the saints today - I agree with fully.

I just don't accept the man-made-tradition of bending that very Sabbath - to point to week-day-1.

[/FONT]I have said this a few dozen times on this board by now - but apparently some love to pretend that it was never said.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK your argument about Moody appears to be in this form.

'Let us pay no attention to Moody's claim that the Sabbath commandment was given in Eden to mankind and still applies as much as ever so how dare this or that person fail to keep the entire day holy as the commandment demands - rather let us judge Moody by our definition of the Sabbath commandment the one found in the Bible and admit that his application of it to Sunday is a failure".

And to a certain extent I could agree with the last part of that argument.

But even so - it is hard to "ignore the details" enough not to "notice" that key elements of the real Bible Sabbath doctrine ARE upheld in Moody's theology.

1. The seventh-day (not first day of the week) Sabbath was given to mankind in Eden - Gen 2:3.
2. the Moral law of God includes the TEN Commandments -- all ten of them - and still applies to the saints today - as Jer 31:31-33 points out.
3. Those who imagine that man made tradition today is sufficient to downsize the TEN commandments and replace the 4th commandment -- are mistaken. Mark 7:6-13.

If only Moody could add to that - your own understanding that the Law of God CAN NOT be bent, edited, wrenched so that its specification for the seventh-day of the week is bent to point to week-day 1.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

DHK your argument about Moody appears to be in this form.

'Let us pay no attention to Moody's claim that the Sabbath commandment was given in Eden to mankind and still applies as much as ever so how dare this or that person fail to keep the entire day holy as the commandment demands - rather let us judge Moody by our definition of the Sabbath commandment the one found in the Bible and admit that his application of it to Sunday is a failure".

Moody does not believe in the sabbath; he believes in faithful church attendance. He believes in the principle of taking one day out of seven for rest.
There is no command to keep the sabbath in Genesis.
Moody taught a principle to keep one day out of seven for rest, from that passage, and from that principle used it to support his emphasis on faithfulness to church. The day of rest should be used to worship God.
That is not keeping the Sabbath.

And to a certain extent I could agree with the last part of that argument.

But even so - it is hard to "ignore the details" enough not to "notice" that key elements of the real Bible Sabbath doctrine ARE upheld in Moody's theology.

1. Moody's "theology" and your "theology" are as the east is from the west, and never the twain shall meet. Your vocabularies are so different it is if you are both speaking a different language. But the SDA's were very adept at neo-orthodoxy--deliberately changing the meaning of orthodox Christian terms. Here you have gone even further.
2. The "real Bible Sabbath Doctrine" you don't know.
3. Reading "Sabbath" in Moody's sermon is reading "Sunday," and gives a completely different perspective. He is not speaking of the Sabbath at all.

1. The seventh-day (not first day of the week) Sabbath was given to mankind in Eden - Gen 2:3.

Moody didn't care.

2. the Moral law of God includes the TEN Commandments -- all ten of them - and still applies to the saints today - as Jer 31:31-33 points out.

The Sabbath is given to the Jews.

3. Those who imagine that man made tradition today is sufficient to downsize the TEN commandments and replace the 4th commandment -- are mistaken. Mark 7:6-13.

And yet that is what Moody meant by the Sabbath. Sabbath = Sunday in Moody's mind. Moody did not keep the Sabbath. He kept Sunday as a day of worship.

If only Moody could add to that - your own understanding that the Law of God CAN NOT be bent, edited, wrenched so that its specification for the seventh-day of the week is bent to point to week-day 1.

That means that one day in seven man had to take rest, and,
Believers had to be faithful to their church on Sundays.
That is all that Moody meant by "keeping the Sabbath."
IOW, "he didn't keep the Sabbath."
He completely redefined it.

 

[BobRyan]

That means that one day in seven man had to take rest, and,
Believers had to be faithful to their church on Sundays.
.

I think we can both see that Moody condemned Sabbath breakers and especially those who attended church on Sunday (as he did) but claimed that the Sabbath commandment was dead. It is in the text of his own sermon he puts forth his claim that the Sabbath commandment continued but has been "edited" to point to week-day-1 after the cross instead of Saturday as given by God in the actual Bible.

I think we both know that there is no text in all of scripture that says "one day in seven take a rest" - rather God is very specific about selecting the very day - sanctifying it and make it holy - and binding for all mankind even by OT standards.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath ... shall aLL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23.

You insert a view of Sabbath not held by Moody and argue that he did not keep that definition for it. I always claim that Moody was right to insist that the Sabbath commandment remains - and was wrong to claim that it has been "bent" to point to week-day-1.

You are free to dance around that basic point if you like - but on key elements of your argument - even the Baptist Confession of Faith opposes your view - not just D.L. Moody and not just Andy Stanley and not just R.C. Sproul and not just C.H. Spurgeon. In fact even Christ argues in Mark 7:6-13 that your model of replacing a commandment of God with man-made tradition is wrong.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1. The seventh-day (not first day of the week) Sabbath was given to mankind in Eden - Gen 2:3.

So also does the Baptist Confession of Faith point to this inconvenient detail - so also does C.H. Spurgeon.

Moody himself brings this point up in his own sermon on the subject.

Moody does not believe in the sabbath; ...

Moody didn't care.

Your "deny all" solution is not as compelling as you seem to imagine.

By contrast -- let us see what Moody himself said about the Sabbath commandment given in Eden - letting him speak for himself. Clearly HE cared enough to point out this detail that you find so convenient in your own theology - a theology Moody specifically singles out to condemn.




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1. Moody vehemently opposes "Sabbath breakers" in his sermon - read it.

DWIGHT L. MOODY

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17 ​

.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

​

THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly?You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales?Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was.I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

It isjust as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins withthe word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stoneat Sinai.How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

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1. Moody claims the 4th commandment - Sabbath was given to MANKIND in Eden. So does the Baptist Confession of Faith - by contrast DHK thinks it was only given to Israel - starting at Sinai.

2. Moody claims that the Sabbath - of the 4th commandment REMAINS in effect from Eden until today and is just as needful today as it ever was. By contrast DHK condemns Sabbath keepers.

3. Moody claims that Sabbath breakers who insist that the 4th commandment Sabbath was done away with have no grounds to stand on. DHK claims that he vehemently opposes Sabbath KEEPERS.


First we notice that Moody is not preaching against 7th - day Sabbath keepers - but against his fellow Sunday-going Christians that attend church on Sunday but then deny that the full force of the Sabbath commandment remains fully applicable to the Christian on Sunday as it did as God gave it to mankiind on Saturday - in Eden.

In other words - he is going after your argument DHK - this is not a sermon bad mouthing those who keep Sabbath on Saturday. In fact Moody is arguing FOR the keeping of the Sabbath commanmdent as a full day of rest and worship - in the same way as the Saturday-Sabbath keeping Christian would have been keeping it in his day - only Moody would have them do it on week-day-1 when convenient.

On all these points - Moody differs with your view.
1. He accepts the Bible fact that the Sabbath Commandment is given to mankind in Gen 2:3 as does the Baptist Confession of Faith.
2. He accepts the Bible fact that the Sabbath Commandment - the 4th commandment remains as a valid part of the Ten Commandments - not done away with. As does the Baptist Confession of Faith.
3. He accepts the Bible fact that the TEN Commandments are moral law of God written applicable to the Saints today - as does the Baptist Confession of Faith.
4. He goes beyond the Baptist Confession of Faith - in that he specifically singles out and condemns the theology that claims that the Sabbath Commandment is abolished.

He accepts the man made tradition that the Sabbath Commandment is justly "bent" to point to "Week day 1" Sunday, instead of Saturday "the 7th day" as God gave it in the Bible.



Each time you are reminded of a specific detail where Moody's theology agrees with the Bible and opposes your own - you make some wild statement about "Moody did not care" to dismiss the point that Moody HIMSELF raises.

How transparently obvious. Why keep doing that as if we cannot see the problem with your non-solution to the problem?

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in Christ,

Bob