To say salvation is by "faith alone" is a false gospel.

[InTheLight]

The NT spiritual use of life can either refer to the new life of regeneration (which precedes salvation) OR eternal life which comes with salvation. In other words, God gives us new life (regeneration) so we can have eternal life (justification). Traditional reformed theology doesn't equate regeneration to justification. So a Calvinist would read the verse as saying "so that having faith you may have ETERNAL life in His name."

Yes, I understand that Calvinists must apply custom definitions to plain scripture in order for their theology to work for them. I also understand, according to Calvinism, that free will to come to Christ is something you get from God if He determines you should have it.

 

[robustheologian]

Yes, I understand that Calvinists must apply custom definitions to plain scripture in order for their theology to work for them. I also understand, according to Calvinism, that free will to come to Christ is something you get from God if He determines you should have it.

I wouldn't call it custom definitions. It would be silly to take every mention of "life" in the NT to refer to regeneration.

"I come that you might have regeneration and have it more abundantly."

"...the gift of God is eternal regeneration."

???

 

[InTheLight]

I wouldn't call it custom definitions. It would be silly to take every mention of "life" in the NT to refer to regeneration.

"I come that you might have regeneration and have it more abundantly."

"...the gift of God is eternal regeneration."

???

The NT spiritual use of life can either refer to the new life of regeneration (which precedes salvation) OR eternal life which comes with salvation. In other words, God gives us new life (regeneration) so we can have eternal life (justification).

You state that regeneration precedes salvation. And what is the duration of time between regeneration and salvation?

 

[robustheologian]

You state that regeneration precedes salvation. And what is the duration of time between regeneration and salvation?

There are so many views on that. I say scripture doesn't give us enough insight into the duration (if one believes that it precedes salvation chronologically or logically), but what is certain is that regeneration is necessary for salvation and that salvation will definitely come as a result.

 

[InTheLight]

There are so many views on that. I say scripture doesn't give us enough insight into the duration (if one believes that it precedes salvation chronologically or logically), but what is certain is that regeneration is necessary for salvation and that salvation will definitely come as a result.

Regeneration = Salvation.

It's the same thing.

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

 

[robustheologian]

Regeneration = Salvation.

It's the same thing.

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

The scripture you just posted proves that wrong.

If regeneration = salvation as you say than the text could be read "...He REGENERATED us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit". But it says he SAVED us...how? by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

 

[InTheLight]

The scripture you just posted proves that wrong.

If regeneration = salvation as you say than the text could be read "...He REGENERATED us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit". But it says he SAVED us...how? by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

The verse says He saved us. How? Through regeneration.

If we want to extend the logic used in your example we could read the verse, "He regenerated us through salvation."

 

[Benjamin]

Neither system is a lottery. Cals have a definite idea of what their system of belief is, whether we free-willers agree or not.

I beg to differ. Without “free will’, the volition of man, the "genuine" ability to respond to the influences of God, the Determinist’s reasoning unavoidably leads to nothing more than a lottery gospel.

 

[robustheologian]

The verse says He saved us. How? Through regeneration.

If we want to extend the logic used in your example we could read the verse, "He regenerated us through salvation."

Yes if we went with your view that regeneration = salvation that would also be unsatisfactory. A great parallel to Titus 3:5 would be John 3:5. Regenerated literally means “born again” or born from above or born of the Spirit. Salvation would is adoption into the kingdom of God. Therefore we see in John 3:5 regeneration “born of the Spirit” being a PRE-requisite for adoption and salvation “being apart of the kingdom of God.”

 

[robustheologian]

I beg to differ. Without “free will’, the volition of man, the "genuine" ability to respond to the influences of God, the Determinist’s reasoning unavoidably leads to nothing more than a lottery gospel.

I would agree but like I said earlier most "mainstream" Calvinists embrace a compatibilistic/concurrent view of moral agency and God's sovereignty.

 

[Benjamin]

I would agree but like I said earlier most "mainstream" Calvinists embrace a compatibilistic/concurrent view of moral agency and God's sovereignty.

"Mainstream" Calvinists are more often than not abandoning “compatibilism” (free will/not free will – volition/not volition) as illogical and therefore are turning to Hard Determinism to defend their theological system. But glad to hear that you recognize the need the need to maintain the volition of man, in whatever form or definition, whether logically supported or not to avoid theological fatalism.

Robert (Apparently not “mainstream”), you might want to pay to the attention to the issues being addressed here.

 

[robustheologian]

"Mainstream" Calvinists are more often than not abandoning “compatibilism” (free will/not free will – volition/not volition) as illogical and therefore are turning to Hard Determinism to defend their theological system. But glad to hear that you recognize the need the need to maintain the volition of man, in whatever form or definition, whether logically supported or not to avoid theological fatalism.

Robert (Apparently not “mainstream”), you might want to pay to the attention to the issues being addressed here.

There in is my reasoning for mainstream in quotations (wishful thinking lol). The logical support for Calvinistic compatibilism is the doctrine of concurrence.

 

[revmwc]

Faith is believing, faith is an action a work of man freely embracing the gospel, if we say faith alone that's salvation by works.

Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

We are saved Grace through Faith. Simple God in Grace sent Christ to die for the sins of all mankind. Then He gave man volition to make a choice to accept of reject. In John 3:17 & 18 Jesus made it quiet clear "Those who believe (that is by Faith) are not condemned, those who don't believe (have Faith) are condemned already. Very simple Faith is not works, works are those things done in the flesh trying to obtain salvation, such as giving large sums to church or to charities, being benevolent is a work and not accepted by God. Working around the church with ground maintenance is good but it is a work and will not save you. Teaching Sunday School is a work it will not save you. Believing on the Lord Jesus is not a work, it is utilizing the Volition God gave us by His Grace for salvation by Faith.

 

[robustheologian]

We are saved Grace through Faith. Simple God in Grace sent Christ to die for the sins of all mankind. Then He gave man volition to make a choice to accept of reject. In John 3:17 & 18 Jesus made it quiet clear "Those who believe (that is by Faith) are not condemned, those who don't believe (have Faith) are condemned already. Very simple Faith is not works, works are those things done in the flesh trying to obtain salvation, such as giving large sums to church or to charities, being benevolent is a work and not accepted by God. Working around the church with ground maintenance is good but it is a work and will not save you. Teaching Sunday School is a work it will not save you. Believing on the Lord Jesus is not a work, it is utilizing the Volition God gave us by His Grace for salvation by Faith.

I'll repeat what I said in post #56:
Well to believe is to do something...which is an act or deed. Take Galatians 5:22 which says faith is a fruit of the Spirit. That word fruit (karpos transliterated in Greek) means fruit, WORK, act, and deed.

We can't ignore what scripture is saying right here.

 

[Robert William]

There in is my reasoning for mainstream in quotations (wishful thinking lol). The logical support for Calvinistic compatibilism is the doctrine of concurrence.

That's true, but no matter how one slices it, grace to regenerate a God hating sinful human has to come first, and ONLY the predestined elect are, at their appointed time regenerated. Regeneration precedes faith.

 

[robustheologian]

That's true, but no matter how one slices it, grace to regenerate a God hating sinful human has to come first, and ONLY the predestined elect are at their appointed are regenerated.

Can't say it any better than that. :thumbs:

 

[PreachTony]

I'll repeat what I said in post #56:
Well to believe is to do something...which is an act or deed. Take Galatians 5:22 which says faith is a fruit of the Spirit. That word fruit (karpos transliterated in Greek) means fruit, WORK, act, and deed.

We can't ignore what scripture is saying right here.

No, we can't. But we also shouldn't simply lump FAITH in with all the other works when the scriptures says quite clearly that we are saved by grace through faith, but not of works.

I think when Paul was mentioning "works" to the Ephesians, he was thinking more of the situation outlined by Christ here:

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[robustheologian]

Karpos means work and pistis means faith. That is as plain as it could be.

 

[InTheLight]

I'll repeat what I said in post #56:
Well to believe is to do something...which is an act or deed. Take Galatians 5:22 which says faith is a fruit of the Spirit. That word fruit (karpos transliterated in Greek) means fruit, WORK, act, and deed.

We can't ignore what scripture is saying right here.

If faith is a gift of God, why was Jesus amazed at the faith which He found in the Centurion? Two things--faith was "found" in the Centurion and Jesus marveled at it.

Matt 8:10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

If faith is a gift of God, why did Jesus "see" the faith inside the paralytic man, subsequently heal him, and forgive him of his sins?

Matt 9:1-2
So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

There's several other examples like this in scripture. Jesus "finds faith" in people then heals them or forgives their sins.

 

[robustheologian]

If faith is a gift of God, why did Jesus "see" the faith inside the paralytic man, subsequently heal him, and forgive him of his sins?

The Bible clearly teaches faith being a means to blessing (Eph. 2:8 with "for" which is dia in Greek which is "by means of") and that this is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8; Gal. 5:22; Phil. 1:29). So God not only provided the paralytic with the healing, but the means to that healing. To God be the glory!! :godisgood: