To say salvation is by "faith alone" is a false gospel.

[Robert William]

If faith is a gift of God, why was Jesus amazed at the faith which He found in the Centurion? Two things--faith was "found" in the Centurion and Jesus marveled at it.

Matt 8:10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

If faith is a gift of God, why did Jesus "see" the faith inside the paralytic man, subsequently heal him, and forgive him of his sins?

Matt 9:1-2
So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

There's several other examples like this in scripture. Jesus "finds faith" in people then heals them or forgives their sins.

Nowhere in the verses you gave does it say faith was or is a gift from God, the majority of mankind has faith in the wrong things and are on their way to Hell.

Listen to therobustheologian when he tells you faith is believing and is a work of man. Then you see free will as a myth, unless you deny the fall of man and fall into the pelagian camp.

 

[robustheologian]

Faith from God is a gift...faith from man is work. Whatever is the cause of our election is the cause of our salvation. So if faith from us is the cause of our election we have effected our own salvation, but if faith is a gift from God than God has saved us. That's what Ephesians 2:8-9 means.

 

[InTheLight]

The Bible clearly teaches faith being a means to blessing (Eph. 2:8 with "for" which is dia in Greek which is "by means of") and that this is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8; Gal. 5:22; Phil. 1:29). So God not only provided the paralytic with the healing, but the means to that healing. To God be the glory!! :godisgood:

The gift in Eph 2:8 is grace, not faith. Faith was "found" in these people I previously listed in the verses a few posts ago, it wasn't "gifted" to them.

 

[InTheLight]

Nowhere in the verses you gave does it say faith was or is a gift from God,

Precisely, that is why I asked IF faith is a gift (which Calivinists assert) THEN why did Jesus "find faith" in these people? And the faith he found was worthy of them being healed and having their sins forgiven.

 

[InTheLight]

Faith from God is a gift...faith from man is work. Whatever is the cause of our election is the cause of our salvation. So if faith from us is the cause of our election we have effected our own salvation, but if faith is a gift from God than God has saved us. That's what Ephesians 2:8-9 means.

So, I guess you are simply going to ignore the verses I listed where Jesus said he "found faith" in people and plow ahead with your Statement of Faith.

 

[annsni]

I'll repeat what I said in post #56:
Well to believe is to do something...which is an act or deed. Take Galatians 5:22 which says faith is a fruit of the Spirit. That word fruit (karpos transliterated in Greek) means fruit, WORK, act, and deed.

We can't ignore what scripture is saying right here.

Let's again look to the verse which clearly tells us that faith is not a work:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

[InTheLight]

Let's again look to the verse which clearly tells us that faith is not a work:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

I read these verses as saying:
Grace is the gift of God which saves you
Salvation comes by the grace of god, it is not of your own doing, not a work

 

[annsni]

I read these verses as saying:
Grace is the gift of God which saves you
Salvation comes by the grace of god, it is not of your own doing, not a work

But you missed the "through faith". Where does faith come in here?

 

[InTheLight]

But you missed the "through faith". Where does faith come in here?

A person needs to have faith in the gospel as described here:

1 Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

And

Romans 10:9-10 if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Revmitchell]

But you missed the "through faith". Where does faith come in here?

Salvation is the gift there not faith.

 

[Robert William]

Let's again look to the verse which clearly tells us that faith is not a work:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Your not getting it, faith is believing and it's a work that does willingly, the reason why salvation is not by works is because the Grace (unmerited favor) comes first and God gets all the glory. There is no way around it, faith is believing, it's a verb an action done by man. Free will is a myth.

 

[Scott J]

Your not getting it, faith is believing and it's a work that does willingly, the reason why salvation is not by works is because the Grace (unmerited favor) comes first and God gets all the glory. There is no way around it, faith is believing, it's a verb an action done by man. Free will is a myth.

I think my best answer to the calvinism v arminianism argument is that God stands outside of time. We perceive it as a "movie". He views it as a portrait.

Free will is indicated by scripture in numerous places. It is not a myth. OTOH, scripture teaches that regeneration of the spirit is the prime cause for salvation... our nature is changed causing our response to the gospel to change. But again, to say that grace comes "first" would seem to force God into our temporal realm and conception.

Overall, I would agree with your OP... the premise that just human faith is powerful enough to save someone. I disagree though with some of the implications you seem to suggest.

 

[Scott J]

Let's again look to the verse which clearly tells us that faith is not a work:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

No. It does not say that faith is not a work or action. We are saved by grace. Faith is the response or vehicle that God uses in our experience. "It" in this passage points back to salvation.... which is by grace. Salvation nor the grace that renders it are our works.

 

[revmwc]

That's true, but no matter how one slices it, grace to regenerate a God hating sinful human has to come first, and ONLY the predestined elect are, at their appointed time regenerated. Regeneration precedes faith.

So do you believe God is going to save everyone since Peter says, 2nd Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God's will is for all to be saved, then by the belief that God predestined people to be saved, that would mean He would have predestinated everyone to be saved in order to conform to His will. But we know He did not do that instead we have this Scripture

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where Paul makes it very clear, God foreknew who would be saved and who wouldn't. Based on that foreknowledge He knew all who would place their Faith in Christ and those were Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. He didn't pick and choose whom He wants to be saved, He chooses those who because of His Omniscience, He already knew what decision they would make out of their Volition. He didn't alter they ability to choose, He just knew the choice they would make. Who would be Faith be regenerated because of His Grace and there was no work involved in doing it. You see those whom He foreknew He Predestinated, called, justified and glorified them, based on what He knew in eternity past.

 

[Robert William]

Precisely, that is why I asked IF faith is a gift (which Calivinists assert) THEN why did Jesus "find faith" in these people? And the faith he found was worthy of them being healed and having their sins forgiven.

Beyond the persons believing by faith that Jesus could heal them, what else do you want me to say, people have faith or believe in many different things. When I read Romans chapter one I see that the natural man can believe quite a bit about spiritual things, the problem with the dead man is that he will not RECEIVE the things of God.

 

[Robert William]

So do you believe God is going to save everyone since Peter says, 2nd Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God's will is for all to be saved, then by the belief that God predestined people to be saved, that would mean He would have predestinated everyone to be saved in order to conform to His will. But we know He did not do that instead we have this Scripture

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where Paul makes it very clear, God foreknew who would be saved and who wouldn't. Based on that foreknowledge He knew all who would place their Faith in Christ and those were Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. He didn't pick and choose whom He wants to be saved, He chooses those who because of His Omniscience, He already knew what decision they would make out of their Volition. He didn't alter they ability to choose, He just knew the choice they would make. Who would be Faith be regenerated because of His Grace and there was no work involved in doing it. You see those whom He foreknew He Predestinated, called, justified and glorified them, based on what He knew in eternity past.

LOL God is willing that the majority of mankind perish, that's why they will perish and end up in Hell.

Please read 2 Peter 3:9 again, you are severely abusing scripture, look at the top, the subject is the beloved, that includes the us-ward, any and all, it's not talking about all humans past present and future, it's only talking about the predestined elect.

Scripture tells us that the wrath of God abides on ALL unbelievers.

Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[InTheLight]

Beyond the persons believing by faith that Jesus could heal them, what else do you want me to say, people have faith or believe in many different things.

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that these people's faith was sufficient for Jesus to forgive them of their sins.

When I read Romans chapter one I see that the natural man believe quite a bit about spiritual things, the problem with the dead man is that he will not RECEIVE the things of God.

I see you are back to quoting TULIP and the Westminster Confession again.

These people that you are calling dead received healing and forgiveness of sins from God because they had faith. Pretty amazing that DEAD MEN can be healed and have their sins forgiven, isn't it.

 

[Robert William]

So do you believe God is going to save everyone since Peter says, 2nd Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God's will is for all to be saved, then by the belief that God predestined people to be saved, that would mean He would have predestinated everyone to be saved in order to conform to His will. But we know He did not do that instead we have this Scripture

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where Paul makes it very clear, God foreknew who would be saved and who wouldn't. Based on that foreknowledge He knew all who would place their Faith in Christ and those were Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. He didn't pick and choose whom He wants to be saved, He chooses those who because of His Omniscience, He already knew what decision they would make out of their Volition. He didn't alter they ability to choose, He just knew the choice they would make. Who would be Faith be regenerated because of His Grace and there was no work involved in doing it. You see those whom He foreknew He Predestinated, called, justified and glorified them, based on what He knew in eternity past.

The above would work if you ripped out the following scriptures out of your bible.


Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[Robert William]

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that these people's faith was sufficient for Jesus to forgive them of their sins.



I see you are back to quoting TULIP and the Westminster Confession again.

These people that you are calling dead received healing and forgiveness of sins from God because they had faith. Pretty amazing that DEAD MEN can be healed and have their sins forgiven, isn't it.

You don't realise it but you are preaching the heresy of Pelagianism.

Mans Depravity= Both REAL Arminians and Calvinists Agree

It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
loves darkness (John 3:19),
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Psalm 51:5)

13 reasons semi pelagians/pelagians are wrong !

1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10)man is sinful in the womb and conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
11)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
12) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
13)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)

How does this help your self esteem?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AveO6xFqUpY&list=FL5RDugdu9Pv5WjPf9KYBhHw&index=39

 

[Robert William]

So do you believe God is going to save everyone since Peter says, 2nd Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God's will is for all to be saved, then by the belief that God predestined people to be saved, that would mean He would have predestinated everyone to be saved in order to conform to His will. But we know He did not do that instead we have this Scripture

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where Paul makes it very clear, God foreknew who would be saved and who wouldn't. Based on that foreknowledge He knew all who would place their Faith in Christ and those were Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. He didn't pick and choose whom He wants to be saved, He chooses those who because of His Omniscience, He already knew what decision they would make out of their Volition. He didn't alter they ability to choose, He just knew the choice they would make. Who would be Faith be regenerated because of His Grace and there was no work involved in doing it. You see those whom He foreknew He Predestinated, called, justified and glorified them, based on what He knew in eternity past.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIPabz-01lY&index=59&list=FL5RDugdu9Pv5WjPf9KYBhHw