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To say salvation is by "faith alone" is a false gospel.
- Thread starter Robert William
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I'm trying to expose your free will lottery, why have you been entitled to teach that heresy in this forum, it's time for that to stop?
PreachTony
Active Member
Neither system is a lottery. Cals have a definite idea of what their system of belief is, whether we free-willers agree or not. We have an idea of our system, regardless of agreement from the Cal side. To call it a lottery is just silly.
Robert - If you think you are going to cleanse the BB of free-will believers, then good luck to you, but it ain't happenin'. By the way, just believing that man has a free will is not a heresy. Now, there are heresies attached to it, just as there are heresies attached to several beliefs.
Right now, RW, you are displaying, across multiple threads, the arrogance that we sometimes see associated with certain Calvinists here, one in particular. If I recall, you mentioned elsewhere that you are not a Calvinist, yet you espouse almost every soteriological leaning of their belief, only you couple it with looking down your nose at people who disagree with you. Now you've taken up the battle cry of the particular Calvinist I was mentioning a moment ago in saying Faith is a work.
If faith is a work, then you have to believe Paul was wrong in writing to the Ephesians that "by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works." If faith is a work, then that scripture is a lie. Do you believe the Bible contains errors like that, that would so obviously lead a person astray?
PreachTony
Active Member
The whole "faith is a work" thing is the one that's irritating me. I remember the long threads in which SBM would just report that argument every other post and never offer explanation, but would instead tell people who disagreed with him that they were simply evading the topic and should rehearse with him what he had written. Those were the days... :BangHead:
Anyone else ever notice that Calvinists seems to stereotypically be unable or unwilling to directly address the issues in an argument?
And yes, my cagey friend (RW), I realize you just want a circular scriptural food fight without reasoning getting in the way. This also is nothing new...
If you haven't figured it out: I am talking about this subject, your subject, Calvinistic dogma having it own forum - and this ain't it.
If you haven't figured it out: I am talking about this subject, your subject, Calvinistic dogma having it own forum - and this ain't it.
Who said anything about Calvin?? He is just a man, stick with scriptures.
Anyone else ever notice that Calvinists seems to stereotypically be unable or unwilling to directly address the issues in an argument?
And yes, my cagey friend (RW), I realize you just want a circular scriptural food fight without reasoning getting in the way. This also is nothing new...
That's what scripture teaches.
Mans Depravity= Both REAL Arminians and Calvinists Agree
It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
loves darkness (John 3:19),
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Psalm 51:5)
13 reasons semi pelagians/pelagians are wrong !
1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10)man is sinful in the womb and conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
11)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
12) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
13)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)
quantumfaith
Active Member
Better to remain silent on scripture than "hurl" it back in forth in an effort of theological "one upmanship"........Robert.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Robert, try very hard not to be one that freely drops the heresy bomb. Not becoming.
quantumfaith
Active Member
The only reason why you are saying faith is not a work is to protect your free will idol, faith is believing, faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see, it's a verb an action done by man, your problem is that you refuse to say that a dead sinful man is first regenerated, that would smash your free will idol all to pieces.
Mans Depravity= Both REAL Arminians and Calvinists Agree
It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
loves darkness (John 3:19),
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Psalm 51:5)
13 reasons semi pelagians/pelagians are wrong !
1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10)man is sinful in the womb and conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
11)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
12) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
13)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)
PreachTony
Active Member
So instead of answering the question I posed, you throw at me a post you've already written several times. That's definitely an SBM-approved tactic. :smilewinkgrin:
So, one more time, just for giggles:
Was Paul wrong in telling the Ephesians that "by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works?" If faith is indeed a work then Paul is caught in a lie here.
Start from the top of the page.:laugh:
I will keep posting those scriptures until you show me how they do not expose your free will idol.
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Amen! Faith is not a work as we see in this verse. We are saved by faith and that faith is a gift from God! :godisgood:
Well to believe is to do something...which is an act or deed. Take Galatians 5:22 which says faith is a fruit of the Spirit. That word fruit (karpos transliterated in Greek) means fruit, WORK, act, and deed.
Negative
Negative, grace is the gift, if unmerited favor is not first bestowed towards a human there would never be faith in the gospel or salvation, because grace to change the nature of a sinful God hating humans heart comes first, God gets all the Glory, and salvation is not by works.
Mans Depravity= Both REAL Arminians and Calvinists Agree
It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
loves darkness (John 3:19),
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Psalm 51:5)
13 reasons semi pelagians/pelagians are wrong !
1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10)man is sinful in the womb and conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
11)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
12) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
13)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)
Negative, grace is the gift, if unmerited favor is not first bestowed towards a human there would never be faith in the gospel or salvation, because grace to change the nature of a sinful God hating humans heart comes first, God gets all the Glory, and salvation is not by works.
Mans Depravity= Both REAL Arminians and Calvinists Agree
It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
loves darkness (John 3:19),
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Psalm 51:5)
13 reasons semi pelagians/pelagians are wrong !
1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10)man is sinful in the womb and conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
11)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
12) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
13)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)
Yes, we understand the "T" in TULIP.
Now, please address my point about John 20:31:
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
which clearly states that belief precedes regeneration. You want to stick with scripture let's stay right here.
PreachTony
Active Member
You can keep posting that list, but you're just making the page longer to scroll through.
So man has no input or inclusion in the matter of salvation? Then why did Jesus say that He stood at the door and knocked, and if any man opened the door, He would come in? Shouldn't He have said "If I move any man to open the door," as that would be more in line with your theology?
Why did He offer the last invitation in scripture in Revelation, saying "And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely"? Shouldn't He have said "If he is athirst, and I move him to come, then he can come freely"? That's more in line with your theology.
Why did Paul, inspired by God, tell the Romans:
If there is in fact no input on the part of the Romans to attain unto salvation? If believing the preached word is not actually part of salvation, and if calling on the name of the Lord is not part of it, then how did Paul get so confused? See, Paul's writing this as though the men and women of Rome, reading his letter, would recognize that they had some freedom of will to do certain things. So Paul is instructing them on the road map of salvation. But according to you and your statement that faith doesn't get the job done, then Paul has to be wrong.Romans 10:9-15 said:
You accuse us of having a "free will idol," yet you are utterly beholden to man having no will of his own, so you've established your own theological idol.
The NT spiritual use of life can either refer to the new life of regeneration (which precedes salvation) OR eternal life which comes with salvation. In other words, God gives us new life (regeneration) so we can have eternal life (justification). Traditional reformed theology doesn't equate regeneration to justification. So a Calvinist would read the verse as saying "so that having faith you may have ETERNAL life in His name."
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