We either trust in Christ alone to save us, or we also add to Him water baptism. mass, sacraments etc!
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- Thread starter MartyF
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This is nonsense.
We trust in Christ alone to save us.
The difference between us and YOU is that WE trust in everything Christ and the Apostles taught and not just those things that WE choose to believe in.
The Sacraments aren’t an “addition” to trusting in Christ – it’s what HE prescribes.
Church of Rome teaches Trent, which holds with Sacramental Grace, as the sinner co operates with God in their own salvation!
he ONLY commanded us to keep and observe 2 of them, not 7 , and that neither of them have anything to do with saving us, as we are fully justified in the sight of God by grace alone, thru faith alone in Christ!
Uh huh- but CHRISTIAN faith means . . .
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)
All of that follows AFTER being saved and justified by God first, as the Church of Rome teaches that we mustget to a place by his graces to merit God saving us now!
And the Bible teaches us that salvation is a LIFELONG PROCESS – not a one-time, slam dunk event.
The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.
However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.
Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.
Why go to Saints or The Mother Mary when we have direct access to the power of God through Jesus Christ?
I know that I have eternal life in Christ right now, as Apostle John stated to me, and what other grace do we need other than that which God gave to us freely by and thru the Cross of Christ?
I can't argue with Scripture. I gave you the Biblical truth above.
The Bible shows that this is a process . . .
Sanctification is, but justification is immediate and permanent! Rome confuses the 2, has us become fully sanctified in order to be able to get justified!
No – justification is NOT a permanent state unless we endure in cooperation with God’s grace.
We have a free will aqnd can walk away from God – ANY time we want.
The Scriptures are FULL of warnings for fully converted, born again Christians NOT to fall back into darkness and lose their security (Matt. 7:19-23, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2, Pet. 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).
God the father elects us, Jesus died for us, and the Holy Spirit seals us, we cannot undo that work of God towards his own!
And I've given you PLENTY of Scripture that shows you are wrong.
If you have a problem with it - take it up with God. He is the Author . . .
Sorry, I had run out of time and had some work I needed to do, so that's why I am answering these in parts.
Let's be honest and realize that I did not just quote "one verse". I count six verses in the second part you object to. I provided additional verses because I think that the surrounding verses can be beneficial. I could vaguely say the Bible says so and quote the entire thing.
https://www.tyndale.com/p/catholic-holy-bible-readers-edition/9781496414014
But by pointing out the specific passages I hope to give someone not knowledgable about my faith the opportunity to understand.
It is important that you understand what Paul is talking about here.
Romans 10:9 NLT
If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
This is not an empty declaration like the required saying of the pledge that goes on in so many schools. And this is not an empty belief like when almost every politician says they believe in Jesus.
Romans 1:1 NLT
This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.
1 John 1:1 NLT
We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning, whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life.
2 Peter 1:1 NLT
This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.
Jude 1:1 NLT
This letter is from Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and a brother of James. I am writing to all who have been called by God the Father, who loves you and keeps you safe in the care of Jesus Christ.
James 1:1 NLT
This letter is from James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am writing to the “twelve tribes”—Jewish believers scattered abroad. Greetings!
If one reads Paul's letter to the Romans and the rest of the Bible, one can easily understand that this declaration is more than empty. This declaration really means that one has decided to serve Jesus as freed slave doing one's best to follow him. This declaration is not meant to include declarations which are lies. So yes, if you're lying when you make the declaration, it doesn't count.
The belief is not shallow nor is it the simple understanding of facts. It is a life changing-belief that brings one in right standing with God. It goes hand in hand with the declaration of faith.
John 3:36 NLT
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”
Notice that the belief implies that one obeys and a lack of belief implies disobedience.
This passage was introduced to me when I was a child. Near the end of Sunday School, one of the helpers read it in a way to make sure we really heard it. And then did not give any explanation. As a Baptist growing up, I learned to wrestle with God. I wasn't just told what to believe. But look at this passage in full. Because this is really 3 verses long.
Matthew 7:21-23 NLT
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. [22] On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ [23] But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’
Notice that in verse 22, you have people doing many things in Jesus' name and some of these sound pretty awesome. I've never cast out demons or performed a miracle! Jesus seems to want something different - not necessarily "more".
Luke 18:9-14 NLT
Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: [10] “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. [11] The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! [12] I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’ [13] “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ [14] I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
One of the things Jesus wants is humility and the basic idea one is not good enough. This is one of the reasons why I believe God's disciples called themselves slaves.
I don't think it is the "work" that God wants. Which did better "work"? The tax collector or the Pharisee?
God only wants one work.
John 6:29 NLT
Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”
Let's be honest and realize that I did not just quote "one verse". I count six verses in the second part you object to. I provided additional verses because I think that the surrounding verses can be beneficial. I could vaguely say the Bible says so and quote the entire thing.
https://www.tyndale.com/p/catholic-holy-bible-readers-edition/9781496414014
But by pointing out the specific passages I hope to give someone not knowledgable about my faith the opportunity to understand.
It is important that you understand what Paul is talking about here.
Romans 10:9 NLT
If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
This is not an empty declaration like the required saying of the pledge that goes on in so many schools. And this is not an empty belief like when almost every politician says they believe in Jesus.
Romans 1:1 NLT
This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.
1 John 1:1 NLT
We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning, whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life.
2 Peter 1:1 NLT
This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.
Jude 1:1 NLT
This letter is from Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and a brother of James. I am writing to all who have been called by God the Father, who loves you and keeps you safe in the care of Jesus Christ.
James 1:1 NLT
This letter is from James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am writing to the “twelve tribes”—Jewish believers scattered abroad. Greetings!
If one reads Paul's letter to the Romans and the rest of the Bible, one can easily understand that this declaration is more than empty. This declaration really means that one has decided to serve Jesus as freed slave doing one's best to follow him. This declaration is not meant to include declarations which are lies. So yes, if you're lying when you make the declaration, it doesn't count.
The belief is not shallow nor is it the simple understanding of facts. It is a life changing-belief that brings one in right standing with God. It goes hand in hand with the declaration of faith.
John 3:36 NLT
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”
Notice that the belief implies that one obeys and a lack of belief implies disobedience.
This passage was introduced to me when I was a child. Near the end of Sunday School, one of the helpers read it in a way to make sure we really heard it. And then did not give any explanation. As a Baptist growing up, I learned to wrestle with God. I wasn't just told what to believe. But look at this passage in full. Because this is really 3 verses long.
Matthew 7:21-23 NLT
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. [22] On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ [23] But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’
Notice that in verse 22, you have people doing many things in Jesus' name and some of these sound pretty awesome. I've never cast out demons or performed a miracle! Jesus seems to want something different - not necessarily "more".
Luke 18:9-14 NLT
Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: [10] “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. [11] The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! [12] I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’ [13] “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ [14] I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
One of the things Jesus wants is humility and the basic idea one is not good enough. This is one of the reasons why I believe God's disciples called themselves slaves.
I don't think it is the "work" that God wants. Which did better "work"? The tax collector or the Pharisee?
God only wants one work.
John 6:29 NLT
Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Please forgive my apparent rudeness, but I get passionate about doctrine.
I intended no insult.
If you don't like the way I'm emphasizing my points, simply say so.
I bold text the things I want the reader to focus on.
As for misunderstanding the Catholic position,
I'm very familiar with "Wesleyan Arminianism", and I don't see Roman Catholic "Molinism" deviating all that much from it.
Both teach that man cooperates with God in gaining eternal life.
I don't believe I am misunderstanding any of it.
In "Wesleyanism" / "Traditionalism" what you have described is called "Prevenient Grace".
I do not see it taught anywhere in Scripture.
Perhaps you could point out to me where you see it taught.
I disagree.
Faith is a gift from God ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by Jesus Christ Himself ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of the believer's gift of grace, not the means by which they gain eternal life.
May God bless you.
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JoeT
Member
If you are not a Protestant and do not believe in reform theology, what do you believe in, you and your powers to read and comprehend?
JoeT
Yep. One might run around like a banshee saying "I'm saved, I'm saved" at first and then the newness wears off and reality sets in. Like you said t's a lifelong journey and I might add that has it's up and downs and it's times of belief and disbelief. But God patiently waits for us with His love and His mercy.
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But there are seven and were accepted by all of Christendom for like 16 or 17 centuries - and then your leaders came along and said that they had no validity. Sorry, but I am not going to follow the human founders of your sect.
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