Tongues Cease of Themselves and Greek Middle?

[Link]

Briguy wrote

Here is the concept. When Isreal was scattered tongues did not instantly shut off. Those who had the gift kept it until they died but the gift was not given out anymore. Thus, the gift faded out (pauo-ceased) as the gifted people died. Tongues ended on their own in that sense. The judgement of God fell but that event did not instantly remove the gift from the face of the earth.

The problem with your argument is that it is not taught in scripture. The Bible does not teach that the gifts dwindled out or would dwindle out when the first generation of believers died. And, do you believe that this only occured with tongues and not with other gifts like prophecy, miracles, etc?

Remember the nature of a Spiritual Gift. They are/were given from God to be used at the will of the person with the gift. God fully gave the gifts, He did not hold back the power to use the Gifts. The power and the Gift were not seperate. Therefore, the gifted healer could heal whomever he wanted to. The gifted tongues speaker could speak any language he wanted to at any time. And the gifted interpreter could interpret any language at any time. God did not need to provide the power for each use of every gift. The power to use the gift came with the gift. That is a strange concept for some to hear but once understood it makes understanding the gifts much easier.

In the case of tongues, it is clear from I Corinthians 14 that it was possible for someone to use the real gift of tongues out of order. Even someone with the gift of prophecy could use it out of order. That doesn't mean his word was false. For example the prophet who did not have a handle on 'for the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets' might neglect to yield the floor when a revelation comes to 'another sitting by.' he may say the same word the other guy would have said, but even though his prophecy was true, he should have let the other guy take the floor and say it.

In the case of prophecy, do you think it was purely automatic? A prophet was very dependant to get his message from the Lord, and if the Lord wasn't saying anything to Him, how could He prophesy? The OT prophets often spoken when, as the Bible puts it, the word of the Lord came to them. They were dependent on recieving this word from the Lord. And it was not completely automatic every time. When asked to prophesy once, one of them called for a minstrel to play music. After the minstrel played, the Spirit of the Lord came on him and he prophesied.

And in Acts, it does not seem that doing miracles and healing was 100% at the will of the apostles. Jesus had already given the 12 authority to heal when He went them out as apostles to preach in the cities and towns of Israel. But then, in Acts 4, the apostles prayed for God to do signs and wonders for Jesus sake. If it were completely up to them, why did they have to pray as if it were not? God answered their prayer and they did signs and wonders. In Ephesus, Luke notes that God did unusual miracles through the hands of Paul. Notice how Luke attributes this to the Lord, and not just to Paul's own will.

Jesus also did not do many mighty miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief. Paul declared that the Lord Jesus healed one crippled man when he percieved that the man had the faith to be healed. So miracles of healing could be dependant on faith in the recipients. On one occasion, In Luke, it also specifies that the power of the Lord was present to heal the sick on one occasion. Christ healed according to God's soveriegn will, and the fact that the apostles prayed for power to do miracles implies that they were subject to God's will as well.

So while we can see from scripture that there are times that tongues can be used in a disorderly manner, according to the will of the speaker, it does not follow that all gifts can be used purely at the will of the speaker. And we cannot conclude from this that there are not some tongues speakers who cannot speak in tongues at will all the time, even if all can. There is a great variety in the gifts that God gives, and not all are the same.

 

[Briguy]

Link, only got a second. Tongues was the gift that Paul specifically said would fade away in the way I described.

Thegift of Prophecy is different then being a Prophet, especially and OT Prophet. Prophecy means "to speak before" not before something happens but "in front of" as in speaking to others. It is/was a speaking gift that was to comfort and exhort believers and convict unbelievers. Now someone with this gift, before there was a new testament, may have spoken things new revelations. Though that was probably rare. Mostly the gift was used to build others up by what you said and how you said it. Telling the future was done by OT Prophets before the Holy Spirit indwelt people as He does today. It was a different dispensation. The future predictions in the NT were revelations of a few Apostles basically. Depends on what you define as a future prediction. Anyway, what were thought of as prophets in the early church would not be as they are now, if that gift exists today. A person with the gift of prophecy now would be one with a God-given ability to lift up his brothers by how he uses his words. That ability would indwell him and always be at his disposel.

More to come......

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Link]

Briguy

There is no reason to redefine prophecy between the old and the New Testaments. Prophets spoke as moved by the Holy Ghost. It wasn't always prediction in the Old Testament.

Prophecies could be predictive in New Testament as well. In fact, the two examples we have of someone giving a prophecy in Acts were predictive. Remember Agabus? Also, remember the book of Revelation.

 

[Briguy]

Link, even by the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians we see how he describes prophecy. The greek word for prophecy is what I had described. It means "to speak in front of". That does leave things wide open and so we look to what Paul said in 1 Cor. 14 to understand the gift better. In the early church new revelations were still needed as there was no NT to teach from. The gift was never to tell a person that He would be a preacher some day or warn individuals of car accidents and that type of thing that happens in some churches today. In terms of future predicting or revealing everything God wanted to reveal is in the Bible and so that part of the gift is no longer needed.

I still basically believe that gifts of preaching and teaching and the service gifts are here today. Do you know any Preaher who got up in front of his congregation and said that the lord has not powered his preaching gift so he can't use it today? No, it doesn't happen because that ability is just in that person. Some people can just stand up and speak for an hour on a Bible verse witout thinking twice. I can hardly speak 10 words together and I lose my train of thought.
Take any of the service gifts, like helps. Can the person not use this gift without God doing something first. No the desire and ability are just there. I have used this example before. If i give you a car but no keys would you feel like you got a real gift from me? If i only gave you the keys when I wanted to give them to you would you feel like you own the gift? No, God gives His gifts fully, the car and keys all for us to use. If He did not the Bible would not use the word gift. think about paul, his gift of healing was so powerful that the sweat from his brow could heal people. Now that is the car and the keys for sure.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

Bump - Maybe this post was so good no one wants to challange it. Yea that must be it!!!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Bump - Maybe this post was so good no one wants to challange it. Yea that must be it!!!

Amen, Brother -- Preach it!

I have a reoccuring dream:
I've made the last spelling correction to
the perfect post: it defines the subject material,
is full of grace to all parties to the
discussion/debate, it is well worded, Biblical,
and Holy. I can't read in my dreams and
I'm frustrated cause i can't read this wonderful
post for use when I'm awake

 

[tamborine lady]

Briguy said:I have used this example before. If i give you a car but no keys would you feel like you got a real gift from me? If i only gave you the keys when I wanted to give them to you would you feel like you own the gift? No, God gives His gifts fully, the car and keys all for us to use. If He did not the Bible would not use the word gift. think about paul, his gift of healing was so powerful that the sweat from his brow could heal people. Now that is the car and the keys for sure.

Tam says:

The analogy was great, but just not quite complete. The car needs more than keys to make it go. It needs gas. In the case of the gifts of the Spirit, the Spirit is the fuel, and He puts it in free of charge whenever He wants the gift to work!

There's one thing you keep doing, and that is comparing earthly gifts with heavenly gifts. God doesn't do things the way we do.

Think of it this way. If you had the gift of prophecy, where would they come from? Would you be all knowing, about all subjects? No? Then when you received a prophecy to give to someone, God would have given it to you.

You wouldn't just make it up. The same works with the other gifts. God tells you when to use them

Selah,

Tam

 

[Ray Berrian]

How about Christians who have the car in their driveway because of the free gift, but refuse to drive it. There is something wrong in their computer/mind and life/heart if they do not serve the Lord after having been saved by His precious promises. A lay Elder or a pastor needs to help them through this barren place in the Christian life.

The gifts that the Lord sovereignly gives to each Christian function better with time. I am sure my first sermon was not as refined as some that I preached many years down the line--in time.

Everyone helps teach us; we learn from the least to the greatest saints in His church.

 

[DHK]

The Charismatic has the free car in the driveway. But under the hood is a cardboard engine. The driver just utters nonsense syllables to make the sounds of the car and thinks that he/she is going somewhere. In reality the Christian life is stalled in the driveway and is going nowhere. In many cases the car is in neutral and is sliding backward down the driveway into oncoming traffic headed for destruction. So is he that speaks in modern day tongues--gibberish. (a cheap imitation of the real thing.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

Well, let's say that the gift the person has is NOT speaking in tongues.

Whatever gift it is, you are led by God as to when to use it.

You probably don't go set up your podium at the car wash every sunday. Because that's not where you are supposed to.

You do it at the church. IF you had the gift of prophecy, and wee given a message for George, you wouldn't run over to Sallies house and tell her, you would go tell George.

Peace,

Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Well, let's say that the gift the person has is NOT speaking in tongues.

Whatever gift it is, you are led by God as to when to use it.

You probably don't go set up your podium at the car wash every sunday. Because that's not where you are supposed to.

You do it at the church. IF you had the gift of prophecy, and wee given a message for George, you wouldn't run over to Sallies house and tell her, you would go tell George.

Peace,

Tam

God "called" me to preach. He enables me to do so. He never gave me any of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit which have now ceased. Anyone who thinks so is deluded. The gifts have ceased. They were the marks of the Apostles and their message.

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

[tamborine lady]

You have ceased to hold my interest.

Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

You have ceased to hold my interest.

Tam

My object was not to hold your attention, nor anyone elses, but rather to show from the Scripture that the tongues that are spoken today are not the tongues spoken in the first century, and therefore not Biblical tongues. I believe my position has been proved. It certainly has not been refuted in the various threads where this topic is being discussed.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

Tamborine Lady,

We should not expect that God would move among His people, when people refuse to hold up the things of the Spirit, but rather trash them. Some people like cut and dried orthodoxy without the mighty and fiery Presence and miracles coming from the Lord. If people do not expect them, the Spirit of God, is not going to knock down doors to portray Himself among Christians. And often even some Christian pastors think they are orthodox in faith when in fact they might not be apostolic

.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
We should not expect that God would move among His people, when people refuse to hold up the things of the Spirit, but rather trash them. Some people like cut and dried orthodoxy without the mighty and fiery Presence and miracles coming from the Lord. If people do not expect them, the Spirit of God, is not going to knock down doors to portray Himself among Christians. And often even some Christian pastors think they are orthodox in faith when in fact they might not be apostolic.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

The Christian life does not rely on mystical experiences. It relies on obedience to the Word of God, and a sacrificial life of denying oneself the things of the flesh. Christ said that if you are going to follow him you will have to deny yourself. Deny yourself of your desires, your wants, the desires of the world, of the flesh, all sinful desires whatsoever and all worldly desires--for whosoever shall be a firend of the world is the enemy of God (James 4:4.

Secondly He said you must take up your cross. A cross is an instrument of execution, of death. There were two thieves crucified on crosses: one on each side of Jesus. They were criminals. The mode of execution was the cross. It is an instrument of death. Christ was saying that you must put yourself to death every day.
Paul said (1Cor.15:31), "I die daily." Every day I put my body to death. Every day I say no to my own desires and yes to the things that Christ wants me to do. He puts it more plainly in Gal.2:20--I am crucified (put to death) with Christ, nevertheless I live. Yet not I but Christ liveth in me. And the life which I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God..."
It is not I that lives. It is Christ that lives in me. The old self has been put to death. I live only for the desires of Christ. I don't live for my experiences wether or not I may think they are the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That is wrong, and it is selfish. That is not living for Christ. My life needs to be put to death. I must be in complete submission to Christ through the Word of God. I must be dead to self. I must deny self. I must reckon myself indeed dead to sin, and alive unto Christ. That is the only way that Christ will accept my service for him. This has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit. It is a daily Christian walk with Christ. You can believe the Scriptures on this or not. The gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased, but God's commands concerning Godly Christian llving have not. Which way will you choose. Will you choose to be ruled by your experiences, or ruled by the Word of God. No man can serve two masters. Is your foundation your experiences or is it the Word of God. No man can serve two masters. How long do ye halt between two opinions?
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

atstring,

The Prophet Daniel said in the last chapter that just before Jesus comes, 'Knowledge will be on the increase.' In our life time we have seen knowledge multiply anywhere your mind can take you. Medicine, history, psychology, technology and computers, etc.

Moreover the Apostle John speaks to a future time to us when two prophets will prophesy. Revelation 11:3 & 6 during the Great Tribulation.

Here is definite and diffinative proof that knowledge and prophecy did not end in 70 A.D. as foolish and unspiritual people think.

And then on top of the stack--the quasi-Biblical interpreters demand that we believe that 'the gift of tongues' and the 'interpretation of tongues' also has ceased [I Corinthians 13:8].

The silly one is that falling under the power of Almighty God the Holy Spirit is said to be psychological and even more dangerously suggested as being 'demon possessed.' I sure would not want to stand before the Lord in their 'boots.'

 

[BobRyan]

Joel 2 also comes to mind about God pouring out His spirit on His people at the end of time.

 

[Briguy]

Ray, why the name calling? That seems below you to do. You have called DHK foolish but you did not represent what he has said acurately. You say that DHK and have "trashed" the Holy Spirit and you know nothing of our spiritual life or our love for the Holy Spirit, who is God. Anyway, you are better then that kind of talk. I really believe that. DHK and I have only said that Tongues and Int. of Tongues have faded away right away God's judgement of Isreal about 70AD. At this time I believe Prophecy and knowledge still exist as gifts. DHK believes that those gifts ceased when the Bible was complete, well after the 70AD date. He believes that the "perfect" is the Bible and so believes when the bible was complete those gifts and any other gifts ended. He has a very good and well thought out argument for that. I am still praying and learning on this and have not decided where I fall. My heart has been burdened lately to love others more and not spend too much time trying to figure out this one issue. The movie, "End of the Spear" has helped me see that I need to love and share Jesus more then I have been.

more to come....

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

I did like your message above and it needs to be heard by all we Christians. Your message was well stated and we need to die to the old life and live consecrated lives for the Lord.

I do take exception to the fact that you said that the gifts of God have ceased. To me this means if they have ceased--the are dead.

I am trying to do exactly as you said in your post. I strive to live by the Word of God.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Briguy,

No, on the contrary I believe the idea that 'gifts have ceased' makes whoever believes this to have a foolish explanation of this passage of the Word, just as any other Bible commentator would write down how he or she exegetes a passage. I am sure DHK is a nice guy and I would have breakfast with him or you once a week just to talk about our spiritual lives. Again, in Christ you are loved.

Ray