Tongues

[Singer]

Spitfire:

I, for one, read every word of your most amazing life's experiences.
You've held back nothing in sharing your testimony and impressions
as God gave them to you. It's always impressionable to see how it
takes a totally beaten down spirit to finally succumb to God.

Similar (though not as traumatic) experiences also is what led me to
give my thoughts to God, to read the bible, pray and finally accept
my saviour at a nondenominational function.

"Much forgiven - much loved" is what comes to mind.

You are now serving God in the way that YOU have been led.
Your particular service to God will no doubt be attacked on this forum
much as mine is. Your long post left us with the task of filling in
some blanks. I'll give you credit for overcoming much.

Yes, it is awesome to be confronted with a Living God isn't it ?
We're reminded to not compare and not judge......Let God be God.
I can only do that in my case and experience. We've both received
blessings and abilities from our experiences.

God Bless
Singer

 

[Singer]

(Briguy)
As for tongues and spiritual gifts, no one has shown from scripture
that the gifts were not IN the person and they chose when to use
them, not God.

(Singer)
This is the case where we don't all agree on what "Praying in the spirit"
is. I didn't choose to use it because I didn't know how. I was a skeptic
until I experienced it. I just wanted an answer from God and I sought God.
Others should be no more critical of this testimony than of a testimony
of seeking God's advice on financial matters, doctors advice, choice of
church, marriage and divorce, etc. Why doesn't anyone attack those
testimonies?

(Briguy)

The tongues speaker used His gift to
share in a different language and the interpreter, then interpreted
the message for ALL to hear and be edified. The point is both
chose when to use their gift they did not wait on God to "power"
their gift.

(Singer)
Yes, but I'm not talking about the gift of tongues here.
I'm talking about something that happened to me during a time
of prayer and praise.

You should try deep prayer over this issue. Some denominations
call it ..."Praying Through". Don't limit God's choice in the outcome.
Don't quench the Spirit. Open your mind to God. Set aside your
prejudices and let happen what will happen. To distrust God's
Keeping you on the straight and narrow during prayer would
seem to me to be a form of blasphemy. If we cannot trust God to
be the stronger of the two spiritual forces, then I have to ask again...
"Do you maybe have a false sense of salvation.?? Have you not
relied on prayer and the bible and faith in God and His promises to
achieve such....? So did I !!!!

And if that's possible, then I have to warn you to be careful not to:

Pray in the privacy of your own home, ask clarification from God on
spiritual matters, say "Praise God", raise your hands to God, etc.

Can someone point out from the bible; the dangers associated with
praying to God, saying praises to Him, raising humble hands,
seeking with a humble heart and crying out to God for answers.

 

[Singer]

(DK)
People today speak in tongues for various reasons: one is
demonic possession, but I don’t believe that is the case
with Singer.

(Singer) Thanks, you're making improvements in your
acceptance of this.

(DK)
Even though he may have been praying, and reading the
Word, desiring God to speak to him, he may have unwittingly
surrendered his subconscious mind to his conscious mind
because inwardly he very much desired that gift of tongues
even though he may not have outwardly expressed it.

(Singer)
Again, we're not talking about the gift of tongues. I do not
have that gift and have not spoken in tongues in 24 years.
You're getting too deep when you say things like "unwittingly
surrendered his subconscious mind to his conscious mind".
I surrendered it to God if at all. Or I should say.."He took it".
Is there scripture warning us not to submit our hearts and
minds to God ?
I think not.

(DK)
The Bible teaches emphatically that the believer is never to yield
control of his mind to an outside power, and yet that is precisely
what speaking in tongues is. When a person speaks in tongues
he does not know what he is saying.

(Singer)
This case is no different than yielding to the Holy Spirit during
conversion/salvation. We are not dealing with gifts of the spirit
here. We're dealing with answers to prayer.
Have you not seen people cry during conversion.?

(DK)
Actively think! Don’t allow your mind to be passive. Don’t allow
your mind to speak in tongues, to be controlled by an outside
influence. Be thinking all the time, and be thinking about certain
specific things: true, hones, just, pure, lovely, good
report. How can you be sure that what you speak in tongues
measure up to these standards. Some people blaspheme
God when speaking in tongues.

(Singer)
That's wrong.. The bible doesn't warn us of that. It says
to "Forbid not to speak with tongues" and Paul said he
thanked God that he spoke with tongues more than anyone.
You're saying the opposite of scripture DK.

(DK)
This is a modern phenomena that began at the beginning
of the twentieth century. It was unknown previously.

(Singer)
It was mentioned at Pentecost and the multitude thought they
were drunk. Bad influence? It was said then that Joel had
foretold of this event and he was not talking about gifts of the
spirit.

What was it then...?

 

[Briguy]

Hi 3angelsmom,
You wrote:
"It is a gift! I prayed for that one!" Could you explain what you mean here? I try to make it a point not to try and convince someone of a Biblical error in a belief until I have all the facts so I won't comment until I know what you mean.

Also, Thanks for the heart felt post. You are very emotional about your love for God and that is great. You have made it through many struggles and came out loving God and not resenting Him as many do in this world. You turned to God for comfort when many would have run further from God. Remember one very important rule, correct doctrine preceeds emotions, doctrine should never be accepted based on emotions. Why you ask? because as a social worker I see all the time how our emotions make us unstable. By unstable I simply mean that our ability to distinguish things gets muddied. We tend to justify things to ourselves as well. The point is that clarity of right thinking is compromised. I hope that did not sound harsh as it was meant in love.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[hrhema]

I have heard many errors being said on this thread. For one thing Charismatics do not believe a person has to be filled with the Holy GHost with evidence of speaking of tongues to be saved. The only group that does are the oneness churches. The other thing is that Mormons do not speak in tongues. I don't know where anyone got that idea.

Every church denomination have churches with excesses. 3Angelsmom. One group of people doing things that are wrong does not do away with the gifts. We are told not to use our personal experiences on threads supporting our beliefs then others should not use their personal experiences to take a stand against tongues.
3 Angels mom I would be careful being a 7th day Adventist and speaking out against these things when it is historically proven that SAD's came from the Millerites who spoke in tongues and shouted and danced. Their worship was so wild that many times they were arrested for disturbing the peace and Ellen G. White was in the midst of these things and even testified many times in a court of law. She even testified once that the glory of God held a police officer down on the floor.

I think everyone needs to quit using the name it claim it bunch as being the example of Pentecostals because they are just a drop in the bucket. THere are preachers even in the Baptist church that are extremists and fanatics. There are people in the Baptist church which are fanatics. They are in the Catholic church. The methodist church. Etc.

 

[Briguy]

Hrhema, please address my comments made to you on the last page, thanks

-Brian

 

[ONENESS]

WOW...that was intresting.

Look I can attest for a lot of churches that it's all about hype and numbers. Wouldent you agree?

But let me ask you this. Those churches you went to and where you saw all the Demons. Was anyone there that was speaking in tongues close to God?

 

[Singer]

Briguy,

I responded as such to your post and left you (or anyone) with
these questions. I haven't heard from you.

Re:

1. Can someone point out from the bible; the dangers
associated with praying to God, saying praises to Him,
raising humble hands, seeking with a humble heart
and crying out to God for answers.

2. This is the case where we don't all agree on what "Praying
in the spirit" is. I didn't choose to use it because I didn't
know how. I was a skeptic until I experienced it. I just
wanted an answer from God and I sought God.
Others should be no more critical of this testimony than
of a testimony of seeking God's advice on financial matters,
doctors advice, choice of church, marriage and divorce, etc.
Why doesn't anyone attack those testimonies?

 

[Briguy]

Singer asks:

""1. Can someone point out from the bible; the dangers
associated with praying to God, saying praises to Him,
raising humble hands, seeking with a humble heart
and crying out to God for answers. ""

Singer, you obviously know there is nothing wrong with those things. I even raise hands during worship time (singing) in church. I have often cried out to God as many people in the Bible have.

I know I have taken your bait but I really don't see how this question fits into a discussion of the Spiritual Gift of Speaking in Tongues.

Now, your turn. Show me an example of a person in the Bible using their spiritual gift and not being the one who controlled the use of it.


In Christ,
Brian

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by hrhema:
The other thing is that Mormons do not speak in tongues. I don't know where anyone got that idea.

Mormons do speak in tongues. Bigham Young himself called it the Adamic language and that it was the language of Heaven. They repeat a certain set of syllables in order to get them going. See this website for some good information. It also gives you a link to the official Mormon website which will also tell you the same:

Adamic Dictionary

DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:
Again, we're not talking about the gift of tongues. I do not
have that gift and have not spoken in tongues in 24 years.
You're getting too deep when you say things like "unwittingly
surrendered his subconscious mind to his conscious mind".
I surrendered it to God if at all. Or I should say.."He took it".
Is there scripture warning us not to submit our hearts and
minds to God ?
I think not.

1. When in Scripture is the "gift of tongues" not a gift? Could you please demonstrate this through Scripture. If you cannnot, then what you had was definitely unbiblical.

2. Surrendering something unbiblical to God is again unscriptural. "God I surrender my cocaine to you; use me as you will, as I now use this "holy" cocaine for your purpose in making me high." Do you get the idea?

3. "God took it." Where did He take it? How do you know He took it?

4. Is there a Scriptural warning for us not to submit our hearts and minds to God."
No, but I wish you would. The plain fact of the matter is: you are not submitting your mind to Christ as long as you are speaking in tongues. You are submitting your mind to another influence, possibly even a demonic influence such as 3AM described. You have no control over the things that you are saying and do not even know what is being said. How can you say that your mind is submitted to God, when you don't know what you are saying?

(DHK)
The Bible teaches emphatically that the believer is never to yield control of his mind to an outside power, and yet that is precisely what speaking in tongues is. When a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying.

(Singer)

This case is no different than yielding to the Holy Spirit during conversion/salvation. We are not dealing with gifts of the spirit here. We're dealing with answers to prayer. Have you not seen people cry during conversion.?

No, you are mistaken. A person speaking in tongues has no control. He doesn't know what is being said. A person weeping under the conviction of the Holy Spirit is in entire control of his/her faculties. One of the ministries of the Holy Spirit in this present age is to convict the world of sin.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
--Something unsciptural (tongues) is not an answer to prayer.

(DK)
Actively think! Don’t allow your mind to be passive. Don’t allow your mind to speak in tongues, to be controlled by an outside
influence. Be thinking all the time, and be thinking about certain specific things: true, hones, just, pure, lovely, good report. How can you be sure that what you speak in tongues
measure up to these standards. Some people blaspheme God when speaking in tongues.

(Singer)

That's wrong.. The bible doesn't warn us of that. It says to "Forbid not to speak with tongues" and Paul said he thanked God that he spoke with tongues more than anyone.
You're saying the opposite of scripture DK.

I am not saying the opposite of Scripture at all. Scripture needs to be harmonized. "That which is perfect (the Word of God) is come; that which is part (tongues, etc.) has been done away. Paul said, "Forbid not to speak in tongues," to the Corinthian church, to the first century church, not to us. Even at that time, the gift was fading out.
Paul said that he thanked God that he had spoken in tongues more than them all. That was a rebuke. He followed that statement up immediately saying: "I would rather speak 5 words with understanding than 10,000 words in an unknown language." It was a rebuke. He would rather say, for example, "Hi, my name is Paul," --5 simple words that people could understand, than 10,000 words in a tongue that no one could understand. What a rebuke that was for speaking in tongues.

(DK)
This is a modern phenomena that began at the beginning of the twentieth century. It was unknown previously.

(Singer)

It was mentioned at Pentecost and the multitude thought they were drunk. Bad influence? It was said then that Joel had foretold of this event and he was not talking about gifts of the spirit.
What was it then...?

It was a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy on the Day of Pentecost, a one-time event. After that the gift of tongues was given to the early churches for a sign to the unbelieving Jews (1Cor.14:21,22) up until the end of the first century when they ceased. That is when the canon of Scripture was completed. After that there is no known record of people speaking in tongues either, except in very sporadic groups of heretical sects.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi 3angelsmom,
You wrote:
"It is a gift! I prayed for that one!" Could you explain what you mean here? I try to make it a point not to try and convince someone of a Biblical error in a belief until I have all the facts so I won't comment until I know what you mean.

Also, Thanks for the heart felt post. You are very emotional about your love for God and that is great. You have made it through many struggles and came out loving God and not resenting Him as many do in this world. You turned to God for comfort when many would have run further from God. Remember one very important rule, correct doctrine preceeds emotions, doctrine should never be accepted based on emotions. Why you ask? because as a social worker I see all the time how our emotions make us unstable. By unstable I simply mean that our ability to distinguish things gets muddied. We tend to justify things to ourselves as well. The point is that clarity of right thinking is compromised. I hope that did not sound harsh as it was meant in love.

In Christ,
Brian

I don't take it as harsh, you are asking a sincere question.

What I mean by "It is a gift, I prayed for" is that, I sought for God to use me, to reach others for Him. Paul admonishes us to "desire to prophecy", and that is what I did. I asked God to make me a vessel of message for Him. To give me the gift of reaching others with His message.

Some may see this as a 'word of wisdom' but I don't see it that way. It is different from that. I know someone who has that gift. She is impressed with specific words for a specific person. That is not what happens with me.

I am impressed to just talk to someone, and it is in THAT moment that the words come. It is a simple conversation, where we are discussing a certain topic, and words come to me that are moving and profoundly personal to the person I am speaking to. I have been told that God answered a question that they had asked in silent prayer through my words to them.

Does that make sense?

Like I said before, this gift is for the edification of someone else, it isn't for me. This gift is exactly what I asked God to do. Use me to reach others.

When I have shared my testimony before (the whole thing) there have been conversions. THAT is what I want to see. I want God to use MY experience, coupled with HIS Spirit to reach people.

My pain and suffering in this life should be worth more than just my own conversion. I want God to use me to reach others with what He did for me.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
WOW...that was intresting.

Look I can attest for a lot of churches that it's all about hype and numbers. Wouldent you agree?

But let me ask you this. Those churches you went to and where you saw all the Demons. Was anyone there that was speaking in tongues close to God?

I don't think that matters. Trying to be close to God at your morning prayer time, by using something that isn't of God doesn't really mesh.

It would be like using premarital sex as a springboard to witness to single guys.

There is NO indication in the Bible that speaking in tongues as it is done today is what was going on in the 1st century church. NONE.

What we are seeing today is a manefestation of demons. ANOTHER counterfiet.

What makes you think that being close to God would keep someone from being manipulated by demons?

Seriously. Think about that for a minute.

Think of Peter. Who lived with Jesus. The very Son of God, God with us, the Word made flesh, and Jesus had to tell HIM 'Get thee behind me SATAN'.

He denied Jesus 3 times. He had a problem with obeying the command to send the Gospel to the Gentiles. He was rebuked by God and Paul.

Yet HE walked with God.

I am certain that the people there at that church were as sincere as can be in what they were doing. But they weren't trying the spirits the way God tells us to. They were living in the moment, basing their judgment on a feeling.

I have no doubt that what I saw was not of God. I know this because I felt familiar there. I was scared. I felt the same presence there that I felt when with my wiccan friends. The same presence that would come into the circle during cerimonies.

They were not glorifying God in their bodies. They were sensual. What does the Bible say about that? That they HAVE NOT the Spirit. I am not judging what EVERY person feels. This is what I saw in those churches.

I have been to an AoG church since then. They were there then as well. My husband and my 3 kids were with me. My kids could see the demons too. They were scared. We left. This was before I joined the SDA church. We were shopping around. I figured that this church would be different because there were so many people there every week. WRONG. That is WHY there were so many there. Loud music, dancing, the 'conga' line. The screaming. It was all the same as before, and the SAME sensual spirits were there.

TRY the spirits to see if they are of God or not.

COMPARE them to the BIBLE.

Do they agree?

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by hrhema:
I have heard many errors being said on this thread. For one thing Charismatics do not believe a person has to be filled with the Holy GHost with evidence of speaking of tongues to be saved. The only group that does are the oneness churches. The other thing is that Mormons do not speak in tongues. I don't know where anyone got that idea.

Every church denomination have churches with excesses. 3Angelsmom. One group of people doing things that are wrong does not do away with the gifts. We are told not to use our personal experiences on threads supporting our beliefs then others should not use their personal experiences to take a stand against tongues.
3 Angels mom I would be careful being a 7th day Adventist and speaking out against these things when it is historically proven that SAD's came from the Millerites who spoke in tongues and shouted and danced. Their worship was so wild that many times they were arrested for disturbing the peace and Ellen G. White was in the midst of these things and even testified many times in a court of law. She even testified once that the glory of God held a police officer down on the floor.

I think everyone needs to quit using the name it claim it bunch as being the example of Pentecostals because they are just a drop in the bucket. THere are preachers even in the Baptist church that are extremists and fanatics. There are people in the Baptist church which are fanatics. They are in the Catholic church. The methodist church. Etc.

What are you getting at? That because there was error in the Millerites (which I am not a millerite and neither is any SDA member), that we should KEEP that error?

(Could you show me your source about the speaking in tongues.)

Keep in mind that it was also the MILLERITES that said Jesus was going to come back in 1844 and caused the Great Disappointment.

What they did has no bearing on what I or any other SDA member believes. WHAT EGW did has no bearing either!

You need to understand something, that you just don't seem to get for some reason. WE ( a collective whole in the SDA) are not followers of Ellen White. We are followers of Christ.

God sent us messages through a HUMAN. She was mortal, and she sinned. I bet she even told LIES *gasp* Who hasn't?

No one claims that she was a perfect being born without sin and was a perpetual vegetarian. All we claim is that God used HER mouth, and HER hands to get a message to GOD'S people.

What she did outside of that could very well have been reproachable, but none the less, we know that God used a MORTAL, human, fallible, but DEDICATED and SINCERE, moral, Christian woman to give us His message.

I challenge you to show just ONE person in the Bible that God used to send messages through that were without sin. Just one.

Peter. I could write a book. Yet we don't discount his writings as anything other than the very inspired Word of God.

Paul. The CHIEF of sinners. Yet, again he is the 'Apostle to the Gentiles' and revered.

John. There is no doubt that Pride got to him, being the 'one who Jesus loved'. Yet, HE is one of the most important NT writers!

You see, there is no promise anywhere in Scripture that God's prophets will be granted perfection. They are flesh, and they fail.

Why add to the failure by not correcting our mistakes?

God Bless

 

[Singer]

Brian,

Consider your (or others) crying when enveloped in
prayer. You surely don't mean that you were in control
of your crying....like...can you turn it on and shut it off
at will ? There's emotion involved and there are involuntary
responses that is directed by the Holy Spirit. Critics say
it's a demonic spirit as God doesn't work that way and
that it's not scriptural to think otherwise.

Then I would ask the same of a person's crying during
worship or greeting or parting with a loved one. Look
at the tears shed at a funeral....can you
really control that?

My mother passed away from cancer 5 years ago
and during her hospitalization I was being strong. However,
seeing her in a weakened state and knowing she was
terminal, and thinking of her previous vigor and sharp mind;
I could not help myself and broke down and cried while
driving home. I felt afterwards that I had just turned
my fears and regrets over to God and it left me feeling
much better. I was the happiest person at her funeral
as I was aware that she had reached her goal. I also used
that time to witness for Christ. "Whosoever lives and believes
in me shall never die" St John 11:26...etc." was the topic
for the day and is yet my favorite verse. That state of
contentment has lasted over the years. A fake from the
pit of hell....No, not hardly !!

Love itself brings tears more readily than anything else.
Some people say they can feel the Holy Spirit.. We are not
able to control the outburst of tears nor the joy that follows
it in most cases. That's where the term "fighting back tears"
originated. We can also quench the Holy Spirit and we are
told not to. Let the tears flow .... Let the Spirit flow !!
As with the similarity of that incident with the Holy Ghost
and the prayer language that was given to me......it's in the
same realm with crying out of love or grief. If love / grief
can cause unleashed emotions with a resultant feeling of
well being when no prayer is involved, why should we fear
what love / worship / praise can bring upon us when
dedicated to God Himself ? It's not the devil that intervenes
in those cases.

I doubt if anyone would claim that the demons made them cry
at their loved one's funeral. Or the term "I laughed so hard
I cried".........is that from satan ?

(Brian - Quote)

I know I have taken your bait but I really don't see how this
question fits into a discussion of the Spiritual Gift of Speaking
in Tongues.

(Singer)

Brian, this debate never was on the Spiritual Gift of
Speaking in Tongues.

It was a welcome addition to this thread, but my original
intent was to verify the experiences that are so biblical
concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

(Brian - Quote)

Now, your turn. Show me an example of a person in the
Bible using their spiritual gift and not being the one who
controlled the use of it.

(Singer)

Same answer, Brian. We're not talking spiritual gifts here and the
rules that apply to them do not apply to this. Acts 2:38 referred
to it as the Gift of the Holy Ghost. That was not the setting for
the dispensation of the gifts. It was Pentecost . John referred
to it as "baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire".....and it is
offered to us.

Worked for me.

 

[Singer]

(DHK)
When in Scripture is the "gift of tongues" not a gift? Could you please
demonstrate this through Scripture. If you cannnot, then what you
had was definitely unbiblical.

(Singer)
You put some heavy restrictions on my incident. More than what
the bible does no less. For the umpteenth time...I did not use the
gift of tongues. I was baptized by the Holy Ghost evidenced by
speaking in tongues.

(DHK)
. Surrendering something unbiblical to God is again unscriptural
"God I surrender my cocaine to you; use me as you will, as I now
use this "holy" cocaine for your purpose in making me high." Do
you get the idea?

(Singer)
First you say that tongues was for a sign at Pentecost (Biblical).
Now you say the whole thing is even Unbiblical
Baptism of the Holy Ghost was referred to (biblical). Reactions
of speaking in tongues was recorded (biblical). Joel prophesied
of it in the O.T. (biblical). Peter proclaimed Joel's prophesy
(biblical). DHK denies this account (Unbiblical)

(DHK)
"God took it." Where did He take it? How do you know He took it?

(Singer)
"If our son asks for a fish, will we give him a stone. How much
more will our heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask."
Do you follow?

(DHK)
The Bible teaches emphatically that the believer is never
to yield control of his mind to an outside power, and yet that
is precisely what speaking in tongues is. When a person
speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying.

(Singer)
I yielded my being to God that night. Is that wrong ?
You're right, I didn't know what I was saying. That
is not wrong either. The Spirit interceded when we
know not what to pray for with groanings that cannot
be uttered. I couldn't utter them...but He knew how.

(DHK)
How can you say that your mind is submitted to
God, when you don't know what you are saying?

(Singer)
How can you say you're going to heaven when you don't
know where it is ? You trust God to know, don't you ?
Same here. You shouldn't fear that satan will intercept
your journey at the time of death and direct you elsewhere.
We give God credit for fulfilling things for us. Results of
prayer is one of those things. Salvation is another. The
journey to heaven yet another. Many more. We
consecrate ourselves to Thee.......totally...or shall we give
all but our tongue...?

(DHK)
A person weeping under the conviction of the Holy Spirit
is in entire control of his/her faculties

(Singer)
Look at my previous thread to Briguy. Talked on this.
A weeping person is not in control of his eyes (tears). A person
baptized by the Holy Ghost is not in control of his mouth (words).

(DHK)
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the
world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
-Something unsciptural (tongues) is not an answer to prayer.

(Singer)
You've got a deepseated and unfounded fear of tongues.
I suggest you let prayer and an unbridled Holy Spirit settle
that issue for you. Don't let booklearning or internal
denominational influence get in your way.

Tongues is not unscriptural.

(DHK)
"That which is perfect (the Word of God) is come; that
which is part (tongues, etc.) has been done away.

(Singer)
And if "that which is perfect" is Jesus, your whole theory is
wrong. I'll make another post on that issue..This one is way
too long already .

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:

You put some heavy restrictions on my incident. More than what the bible does no less. For the umpteenth time...I did not use the gift of tongues. I was baptized by the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues.

The Bible places many restrictions on speaking in tongues, not me. I didn't write the Bible. Now you are saying you were baptized by the Holy Spirit, and the evidence of that was tongues. How do you know it was a baptism of the Holy Spirit, if such a thing even exists today. The only baptism of the Holy Spirit that I know of is when a person is saved, he is baptized into the family of God, or what some call the body of Christ. This is not evidenced by speaking in tongues. Tongues has nothing to do with it. I am assuming the experience that you had was post-salvation, what most charismatics refer to as a second blessing. Whatever you call it, the Bible doesn't teach it. My challenge to you is: show me through the epistles where this is taught. The epistles are books of doctrine. The Acts of the Apostles is a history book. Show me where this doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by tongues is explained as a Scriptural doctrine for us today in the epistles. In Acts 1, the Apostles are commanded by Jesus to wait until the Holy Spirit comes. When the Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost, that "baptism" which took place was not only a fulfillment of the words of Christ, but a fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel. It was a one-time event. Penetecost will never happen again. Neither will God ever speak to Moses through a burning bush. Some things happen only one time in history. This was one of them.

First you say that tongues was for a sign at Pentecost (Biblical). Now you say the whole thing is even Unbiblical Baptism of the Holy Ghost was referred to (biblical). Reactions
of speaking in tongues was recorded (biblical). Joel prophesied of it in the O.T. (biblical). Peter proclaimed Joel's prophesy (biblical). DHK denies this account(Unbiblical).

As explained above the one-time account of the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel was indeed Biblical. The prophecy has been fulfilled. Why do you think it should go on repeating itself. The Day of Pentecost was over 2,000 years ago. Today is not a continuation of it. I have never denied that account of Pentecost. I do deny the accounts of those who falsify or imitate what happened on that very unique and special day.

"If our son asks for a fish, will we give him a stone. How much more will our heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask."
Do you follow?

Do I follow your logic? No. This verse says nothing about asking for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In general it speaks of answer to prayer. The last part referring to the Holy Spirit, the Father will give the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to those who ask. (John 1:12,13). How do you people get baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues out of this passage?? Must have a good imagination I guess.

I yielded my being to God that night. Is that wrong? You're right, I didn't know what I was saying. That is not wrong either.

When the Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, says that we are to "bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2Cor.10:5), then to speak in an unknown tongue and not have any idea of what you are saying is totally wrong! For all you know you may be cursing Christ and praising Satan. How can you know for sure?

The Spirit interceded when we know not what to pray for with groanings that cannot be uttered. I couldn't utter them...but He knew how.

Biblically it is the Holy Spirit. You are not describing a Biblical situation. In a Biblical situation the Holy Spirit intercedes (not the person). The Holy Spirit intercedes with groanings that cannot be uttered! If they cannot be uttered, they CANNOT be uttered! This one verse in itself, if used in defense of tongues shows one to be a fraud. You are claiming to utter (speak in tongues) what the Bible expressly says cannot be uttered by a human tongue. As politely as I can, You're a fraud. Or at least anyone who dares to use this verse in defence of speaking of tongues is a fraud. "With groanings which cannot be uttered," refers to the Holy Spirit only, never to the person involved.

How can you say you're going to heaven when you don't know where it is ? You trust God to know, don't you ? Same here. You shouldn't fear that satan will intercept your journey at the time of death and direct you elsewhere. We give God credit for fulfilling things for us. Results of prayer is one of those things. Salvation is another. The journey to heaven yet another. Many more. We consecrate ourselves to Thee.......totally...or shall we give all but our tongue...?

I know for absolutely sure that I am going to Heaven. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Heaven is God's abode. When Christ's Millennial reign is over, God will make a new earth and a new heaven. In that new heaven God describes the place called the New Jerusalem, the abode of God, in Revelation 21 and 22. I am told that I shall see Him on His throne. The basis of my faith rests solely on the Word of God, and His promises. I do not have blind faith, nor faith that is based on unscriptural experiences. I don't fear Satan, because I am standing on the solid rock. My faith is firm. On the other hand, from what you have written, much of your theology, much of your faith is based on that one little experience that you had 24 years ago. You can't soundly back it up with Scripture. The entirety of your Christian life seems to hinge on that one experience. One experience, one time, one theology forever changed. What if you were wrong? What if you were deceived? You will no doubt throw back the same question at me, but there is no need. I don't base any of my life on experiences. It is all based on the Word of God. The foundation of our lives needs to be the Word of God.

Look at my previous thread to Briguy. Talked on this. A weeping person is not in control of his eyes (tears). A person baptized by the Holy Ghost is not in control of his mouth (words).

A weeping person still has control of his or her mind--tears or no tears, they have control of the mind.

You've got a deepseated and unfounded fear of tongues. I suggest you let prayer and an unbridled Holy Spirit settle that issue for you. Don't let booklearning or internal denominational influence get in your way. Tongues is not unscriptural.

You are entitled to your unscriptural and unfounded biased opinion.

Here is a personal testimony: I was introduced to Charismatic by an acquaintance once. I was with my wife in a Christian book store, and when he found out that I was a Baptist that did not believe in tongues, he first tried to prove it from the Bible. Unable to find his key verses in the Bible, he became frustrated with me. In the end he resorted to an attempt to "casting out the demon" that was in me. He had tongues, therefore he was saved; I did not have tongues, therefore I was not saved. Because I spoke against tongues I must have been demon-possessed and in a very public and crowded place he was going to do something about it. Rebuking Satan in the name of the Lord he put on quite a show for himself, until we quietly left--somewhat amused--but saddened at such people that are deceived into thinking they are saved because they have had an experience, but don't know two cents about the Bible, including what it says about Biblical salvation.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

(Singer)
How can you say you're going to heaven when you don't know where it is ?

The first time we see heaven through immortal eyes will be HERE on earth. THE HEAVENS WILL OPEN.

You trust God to know, don't you ? Same here.

Absolutely! And I also trust His Word that tells me that we shall not all sleep, but some of us will be changed, in THAT moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST trump, the TRUMP will sound, and the DEAD will be raised INCORRUPTABLE, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.

You shouldn't fear that satan will intercept your journey at the time of death and direct you elsewhere.

Not unless he is in the habit of robbing graves! Do not fear those who can kill your body. It will only put you into the death of sleep (the first death), but RATHER fear HIM Who can destroy BOTH your body, (the body that is dead) AND your SOUL (what you are while you are alive) IN HELL. (the second death)

We give God credit for fulfilling things for us. Results of prayer is one of those things. Salvation is another. The journey to heaven yet another. Many more.

Could you expound for us this journey to heaven? How long will it take to get there? How will we know the way? My Bible tells me that Jesus is coming to get us to go to heaven. What does yours say?

We consecrate ourselves to thee.......totally...or shall we give all but our tongue...?

Does the Bible say that consecration of the tongue results in mumbling in an incoherent way to God and to man? Does it mean that we will speak in words that no one can understand? Therein lies the problem. DO NOT SPEAK if there is not an interpreter. Who is interpreting if you are doing 'this' while praying? Is it the Holy Spirit? Does HE need you to speak to Him in an unknown language for YOUR thoughts to get to God? Does HE need YOU to translate YOUR thoughts that CANNOT be uttered, in order for them to get to God? I think you need to give God a little more credit than that. Who confounded the languages at Babel? GOD. So HE knows ALL the languages of the world. What ever your heart thinks to say, say it. What ever your heart cannot put into words, the Holy Spirit will pass on to God. YOU cannot UTTER THEM. That is WHY you need the Holy Spirit to DISCERN those thoughts for YOU. IF you COULD utter them, YOU wouldn't need HIM to do ANYTHING other than pass it along. You see, YOU are not ABLE to utter those things. So by you 'uttering' things that you didn't say in English, you are doing something that the Bible says you CANNOT.

Do we REALLY consecrate our WHOLE lives to Him? What about the Seventh day of every week for your whole life? How old are you? About 40 or so? That would mean that you have ALREADY had almost 300 opportunities to 'consecrate' yourself to Him on His day. If you live to be 85 you will have had over 600 chances to consecrate your self to Him on His day. If you never keep a single Sabbath in your whole life, you will have spent 600+ days in rebellion to Him.

You consecrate your self to Him, totally, but yet you willfully disobey.

Do you see a contradiction there?

There is only ONE mention of Consecration in the New Testament, and it is in the HEART of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 10:15. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21. And having an high priest over the house of God;
22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

There is so much that I could say about this passage, but I will leave the Holy Spirit to work in your heart and mind.

God Bless

 

[ONENESS]

QUOTE]Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Originally posted by ONENESS:
WOW...that was intresting.

Look I can attest for a lot of churches that it's all about hype and numbers. Wouldent you agree?

But let me ask you this. Those churches you went to and where you saw all the Demons. Was anyone there that was speaking in tongues close to God?

I don't think that matters. Trying to be close to God at your morning prayer time, by using something that isn't of God doesn't really mesh.

It would be like using premarital sex as a springboard to witness to single guys.

There is NO indication in the Bible that speaking in tongues as it is done today is what was going on in the 1st century church. NONE.

What we are seeing today is a manefestation of demons. ANOTHER counterfiet.

What makes you think that being close to God would keep someone from being manipulated by demons?

Seriously. Think about that for a minute.

Think of Peter. Who lived with Jesus. The very Son of God, God with us, the Word made flesh, and Jesus had to tell HIM 'Get thee behind me SATAN'.

He denied Jesus 3 times. He had a problem with obeying the command to send the Gospel to the Gentiles. He was rebuked by God and Paul.

Yet HE walked with God.

I am certain that the people there at that church were as sincere as can be in what they were doing. But they weren't trying the spirits the way God tells us to. They were living in the moment, basing their judgment on a feeling.

I have no doubt that what I saw was not of God. I know this because I felt familiar there. I was scared. I felt the same presence there that I felt when with my wiccan friends. The same presence that would come into the circle during cerimonies.

They were not glorifying God in their bodies. They were sensual. What does the Bible say about that? That they HAVE NOT the Spirit. I am not judging what EVERY person feels. This is what I saw in those churches.

I have been to an AoG church since then. They were there then as well. My husband and my 3 kids were with me. My kids could see the demons too. They were scared. We left. This was before I joined the SDA church. We were shopping around. I figured that this church would be different because there were so many people there every week. WRONG. That is WHY there were so many there. Loud music, dancing, the 'conga' line. The screaming. It was all the same as before, and the SAME sensual spirits were there.

TRY the spirits to see if they are of God or not.

COMPARE them to the BIBLE.

Do they agree?

God Bless [/QUOTE]

What makes you think that being close to God would keep someone from being manipulated by demons?

That’s not where I was going at all. What I was trying to say is: Satan is not going to cause us to do something that causes us to grow closer to God.

Threeandgelsmom, here’s the problem.

I know for a while after the first time I spoke in tongues I doubted and wondered if it was really something God did or if it was something I did my self.

I started getting real confused about that and the only thing I could do was pray. Some things you just cant take other people’s words on. And you have to know for your self.

But a few weeks went by and I was seeking God and just talking to him about the whole tongues thing. So I asked him to show me and let me know if it was something he caused or was something that I was trying to do. A couple of Sundays passed and at our Alter Call I lifted my hands and began to speak a Language I had never spoke before. You said you know when the Holy Ghost came in your life b/c you felt so renewed. Well, me likewise. That morning I had never felt so whole in all of my life. I remember it like it was yesterday. There is no doubt in my mind that God confirmed what I was praying about, and as a result it made me want to get as close to God as I could.

Now saying all that to say this. You say that its demons that causes people to do those things. But ma’am, let me remind the seriousness of making accusations like that. Jesus let us know that Satan will not cause us to get closer to God. He told us “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand (John 12:27). The devil would never do anything to get us closer to God if he did he could not stand.

I have no doubt that what I saw was not of God. I know this because I felt familiar there. I was scared. I felt the same presence there that I felt when with my wiccan friends. The same presence that would come into the circle during cerimonies.

Look I don’t know anything about where you visited. Maybe you were scared, maybe you felt a feeling like you felt with your wiccan friends. But where was that mysterious feeling at when your youth pastor took you up to his room. If you can “SEE” demons as good as you say you can, where was his at? Now please don’t take that the wrong way. I don’t mean it in a harsh way b/c that was a traumatic experience for you I’m sure. Are you telling me that there was not a spirit on him?

I felt REALLY uncomfortable

This is all the demonic presence you felt? Come on.

I have been diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I was 9 when they first discovered this. I still live with it today, but through the power of the Holy Spirit (the fruit of self control) I am able to live without drugs.

I don’t know you ma’am so please don’t take this as a insult. But have you ever thought that you were a little Obsessive and a little Compulsive about all the Demons you “SEE”?

. Loud music, dancing, the 'conga' line. The screaming. It was all the same as before, and the SAME sensual spirits were there.

Let me ask you this what kind of Demon was on David when he took off his garments, danced and praised God? Even rebuked his wife. He must have really of had something bad.

It all goes back to what Paul said. Every thing should be decent and in order (1 Corth 14:40). And that does not mean that everyone has to come in sit in the exact same seat, rehearse the exact same creeds, finger a cross in front of you, Sing the exact same hymns and do them all in that exact same order. That’s not what “in order” is signifying.

 

[Glorious]

Just gotta say it.

This last post on ONENESS is the best one yet.

OK... "best" as in, he raised all I have had in my mind, plus his thoughts were mine (referring to 3AM's experience).

Thanks Oneness.

Glorious
who has never spoken in tongues and does not desire to, but will not discount them as rubbish.