Tongues

[DHK]

Posted by Glorious:

Just gotta say it.
This last post on ONENESS is the best one yet.
OK... "best" as in, he raised all I have had in my mind, plus his thoughts were mine (referring to 3AM's experience).

Yes it is a good post. It is good to point out how tongues is not for today, and not of God.

Posted by Oneness

I know for a while after the first time I spoke in tongues I doubted and wondered if it was really something God did or if it was something I did my self.
I started getting real confused about that and the only thing I could do was pray. Some things you just cant take other people’s words on. And you have to know for your self.

Those who spoke on the Day of Pentecost spoke without hesitation, and knew right away that it was a gift of God. Peter explained that immediately that this was a fulfillment of the prophecy given by the prophet Joel. They didn’t have to wonder and doubt if their experience was from God. They knew it was from God.
Oneness demonstrates that his experience was not from God. Just as Muhammed doubted if his visions were of God, Oneness doubted if his experience was from God. It was Khadija, Muhammed’s wife that convinced him that his visions were from God. He originally thought that they were from demons. He had doubts. Oneness had doubts too. He did not know for sure, that the tongues that he was speaking, was from God or not. The ones that spoke in tongues in the Bible knew immediately that the tongues were from God.

But a few weeks went by and I was seeking God and just talking to him about the whole tongues thing. So I asked him to show me and let me know if it was something he caused or was something that I was trying to do. A couple of Sundays passed and at our Alter Call I lifted my hands and began to speak a Language I had never spoke before. You said you know when the Holy Ghost came in your life b/c you felt so renewed. Well, me likewise. That morning I had never felt so whole in all of my life. I remember it like it was yesterday. There is no doubt in my mind that God confirmed what I was praying about, and as a result it made me want to get as close to God as I could.

Oneness asked God to show him “about the whole tongues thing.” Then after a couple of Sundays he spoke in tongues again. How does Oneness know this was God answering his prayer. It seems to me if it were an answer to prayer God would have done it immediately. But more importantly than that, the facts don’t match up with Scripture. If he really wanted to know God’s will in the matter he would have prayed to show me the answer through Scripture, and would have done a thorough Bible study on the subject, not being influenced by the group (cult) of people that he was surrounded by.
He spoke a language he never spoke before. What was the language? To this day do you know what the language was? Who interpreted the language? Does he know what language it was? If not this was not of God. The tongues or languages spoken in the New Testament were not gibberish but actual languages.
He said that God confirmed it? How? It was an emotional experience. Emotions don’t confirm the will of God. Satan works on our emotions too. He also can give you a sense of peace. You better have a better ground to stand upon than your emotions and experiences.

Now saying all that to say this. You say that its demons that causes people to do those things. But ma’am, let me remind the seriousness of making accusations like that. Jesus let us know that Satan will not cause us to get closer to God. He told us “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand (John 12:27). The devil would never do anything to get us closer to God if he did he could not stand.

I have no doubt that demons cause people to do things like that. They do. Maybe not in every case, but in many cases. That is precisely what Paul was pointing out in the first few verses of 1Cor.12. Some people had been calling Jesus “accursed” by another spirit, other than the Holy Spirit. Paul was rebuking this. You are very naïve concerning Satan and his power. Jesus looked straight at Peter and said: “Get thee behind me Satan.” The Bible says to “Resist the devil.” “Be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil walks about seeking whom he may devour, whom resist steadfast in the faith.” We are in a battle with Satan. And with some people on this board, Satan seems to be winning. The devil will do everything in his power to keep one getting closer to God, including speaking in tongues, perhaps especially speaking in tongues. It is not of God.

Look I don’t know anything about where you visited. Maybe you were scared, maybe you felt a feeling like you felt with your wiccan friends. But where was that mysterious feeling at when your youth pastor took you up to his room. If you can “SEE” demons as good as you say you can, where was his at? Now please don’t take that the wrong way. I don’t mean it in a harsh way b/c that was a traumatic experience for you I’m sure. Are you telling me that there was not a spirit on him?

Many people who have been involved in the occult and religions like Wicca, have the ability to see demons. This is not unusual. The scary thing about this is that people who go on practicing tongues leave their minds open to the possibility of demon oppression, or demon-possession (if they are not saved), and may end up in the same sorry state of affairs.
quote:
I felt REALLY uncomfortable

This is all the demonic presence you felt? Come on.

All demonic presence feels very uncomfortable and is hard to explain for those who have never experienced it.

Let me ask you this what kind of Demon was on David when he took off his garments, danced and praised God? Even rebuked his wife. He must have really of had something bad.
It all goes back to what Paul said. Every thing should be decent and in order (1 Corth 14:40). And that does not mean that everyone has to come in sit in the exact same seat, rehearse the exact same creeds, finger a cross in front of you, Sing the exact same hymns and do them all in that exact same order. That’s not what “in order” is signifying.

You have got to be kidding. David was a man after God’s own heart. There is no suggestion that he was demonized at all. Your example is totally unwarranted and shows your lack of Biblical knowledge.
“Let everything be done decently and in order. I have never seen a Charismatic church who has followed that verse yet. It as if they have ripped chapter 14 of 1Corinthians out of their Bibles. Do you ignore these verses? Do you have unsaved Jews in your congregations? Tongues are for a sign to the unbelieving Jew. Do women speak in tongues? They are commanded to keep quiet. Do more than two or three speak in tongues? It is not allowed if there are. Do they all have an interpreter. Tongues is not allowed without an interpreter. Are the tongues an actual language? Biblical tongues were. Does the church seek after the “best” gifts (1Cor.12:28). Tongues is put on the bottom of that list, as the least important of all the gifts. Do everything decently and in order. I wish you (charismatic churches) would. If that were true, no speaking in tongues would ever be practiced.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
That’s not where I was going at all. What I was trying to say is: Satan is not going to cause us to do something that causes us to grow closer to God.

What makes you think that doing something that is not scriptural is bringing you closer to God? God is THE WORD. What does HE say about this 'prayer language'? NOTHING.

The silence speaks volumes. Try the spirits. Have you even tried to?

Threeangelsmom, here’s the problem.

I know for a while after the first time I spoke in tongues I doubted and wondered if it was really something God did or if it was something I did my self.

If it was something from God, you should have immediatly been able to discern if it was. Did you test it against scripture?

I started getting real confused about that and the only thing I could do was pray.

Confusion is from the devil. All you DID was pray, that is not ALL you could have done. You could have compared it to scripture and you would have found it to be false.

Some things you just cant take other people’s words on. And you have to know for your self.

And herein lies YOUR problem. You based your belief solely on your experience without weighing it against scripture. This is a very dangerous thing.

But a few weeks went by and I was seeking God and just talking to him about the whole tongues thing. So I asked him to show me and let me know if it was something he caused or was something that I was trying to do.

Did you at any point in this prayer read what the Bible says about tongues? Did you ask anyone about it? Please answer these questions.

A couple of Sundays passed and at our Alter Call I lifted my hands and began to speak a Language I had never spoke before.

Who were you talking to? Was there an interpreter? What were you saying? This is all Biblical. If you are speaking in REAL tongues, from the Holy Spirit, then you will have an interpreter. If you don't believe that, you are denying the Bible. Paul warned us not to speak in tongues unless there was someone there interpreting. That rules out 'praying' in an unknown tongue.

You said you know when the Holy Ghost came in your life b/c you felt so renewed. Well, me likewise.

And that experience was because I had confessed my sin, and was humbled before God. I put the weight of all my guilt and shame at His feet, and was 'renewed' by THAT. I didn't 'feel' anything in my flesh. I felt it in my heart. I felt peace because my sins were forgiven.

That morning I had never felt so whole in all of my life.

Did you not feel whole when you first gave your heart to Jesus? Did you not feel whole when you confessed all your sins and was humble before God?

I remember it like it was yesterday.

Me too, and the strength that I draw from my conversion experience is based on the Scriptural experience of the New Birth. I PUT OFF the old man, and PUT ON Christ! There is no bells and whistles to it. There is no 'sensational' feeling in your body. It is ALL spiritual. It is a Biblical renewal. It is not biblical to pray in an unknown tongue. Paul warned us that if we do this, we are not using the gifts the way that God gave them. He gave them for the edification of the Body of Christ. For the furtherance of the Gospel. These people were speaking REAL languages. They weren't just jibberish. They were speaking languages of REAL peoples.

There is no doubt in my mind that God confirmed what I was praying about, and as a result it made me want to get as close to God as I could.

There is no doubt that you were given an unbiblical experience in answer to your doubts about an unbiblical experience? Have you not ever wondered why God didn't make you speak in this unknown language when you were actually ASKING Him to show it to you? Why did He 'wait' 3 Sundays to do it? If it was Him, why didn't He show you RIGHT WHEN YOU ASKED.

Now saying all that to say this. You say that its demons that causes people to do those things. But ma’am, let me remind the seriousness of making accusations like that. Jesus let us know that Satan will not cause us to get closer to God.

Jesus said to be aware of false prophets. HE SAID to try every spirit. HE said there would be FALSE Christs. I make those accusations based on the Bible evidence, and my own experiences. Now, you have yet to show from Scripture that this is of God, but are basing it solely on experience. I have shown you how I went from darkness INTO God's Light. When I was in darkness I SAW darkness. I SAW demons. When I came into the LIGHT of God's Word, and He gave me the gift of discernment, I was able to see these dark things for what they were. Defeated, angry, rebellious, vengful, angels, that KNOW what their fate is. They are roaming around SEEKING those who are doubtful. Seeking those who do not study, but rather base their decisions on experience and popular opinion.

He told us “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand (John 12:27). The devil would never do anything to get us closer to God if he did he could not stand.

Do you think that going to church on Sunday gets you closer to God? Why? Is it because you are going on Sunday, or because you are going with a heart that is wanting to get closer to God? Know this: Sunday is not the day that God made for worship. The Holy Sabbath is the Seventh Day of the week, your 'saturday'. NOW, we see people going to church all over the world on sunday, with every intention, and a sincere heart, to please God, yet in their ignorance, they do something that displeases Him. Your ignorance on this issue, is an excuse. In times past God winked at mans ignorance, but is NOW calling all men to repent. The means in which we are drawn closer to God are through effectual fervent prayer *real* prayer, Bible study, worship, fellowship, and sanctified living. There is no room in the sanctified life for something that God did not establish. God did not establish a 'prayer' language. He established a gift for the sake of furthering the Gospel, so that OTHERS could come to Christ. It is not for YOU to get CLOSER to Christ.

Look I don’t know anything about where you visited. Maybe you were scared, maybe you felt a feeling like you felt with your wiccan friends. But where was that mysterious feeling at when your youth pastor took you up to his room. If you can “SEE” demons as good as you say you can, where was his at? Now please don’t take that the wrong way. I don’t mean it in a harsh way b/c that was a traumatic experience for you I’m sure. Are you telling me that there was not a spirit on him?

There were, and in my own foolishness I ignored them. I was blinded. You forget something: demons can come in as angels of light. They can appear the same way that REAL angels do. GOOD. This man had a seducing spirit on him, and I didn't see it because I was seduced by him. I will not get angry at you for this assumption, because I know you don't mean it cruely, but you are trying to prove your point by invalidating my experience.
Do you not think that discernment of Spirits is a real gift?
Do you think that if someone is not obeying the Spirit, or has succombed to lust (which I was), that the Spirit will continue to be in control?

I was in control in this situation, so I was not allowing the Spirit to be in control. If you are led by the flesh, we all know what happens. You see, I was following my flesh. I was WANTING this man to like me (I think I mentioned that). I ignored the warning signs without even thinking about them first because I was blinded by my own desire and lust.

This is all the demonic presence you felt? Come on.

NO! I felt really uncomfortable because I was in his bedroom alone with him! I was a VIRGIN. I had only been kissed 2 times before that. I was uncomfortable because I felt vulnerable. I didn't see any of his demons until after the fact, and my eyes were opened by my repentance for allowing my lust to open me up to be seduced.

I don’t know you ma’am so please don’t take this as a insult. But have you ever thought that you were a little Obsessive and a little Compulsive about all the Demons you “SEE”?

Do you have any idea what OCD is? Seriously. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain that causes a person to apply excessive importance to things that are trivial. Like checking to see if the silverware drawer is straight 25 times a day. Like making sure that the clothes in the drawers didn't move back when you closed them. It is annoying. I am not a schitzophrenic. That is what you are referring to. You need to read up on the two disorders, they are very different from one another. If you are allowed to watch movies, watch 'As good as it get's' to see a glimps of what a person with OCD is like, and watch 'a beautiful mind' to get a glimps of what someone with paranoid schitzophrenia is like.

I don't have hallucinations. I see life quite clearly. Sometimes too clearly. I over analyze things at times (read into peoples actions), but I have never had any hallucinations. I know this because I have seen these demons with others, who were seeing them too.

Let me ask you this what kind of Demon was on David when he took off his garments, danced and praised God? Even rebuked his wife. He must have really of had something bad.

Don't mock me. You have a serious issue here, that you are trying to make humerous. David danced before the Lord. He was humble. He was ALREADY close to God when he did this. This was also a REALLY long time before the Holy Spirit was sent. So this comparison is moot.

It all goes back to what Paul said. Every thing should be decent and in order (1 Corth 14:40). And that does not mean that everyone has to come in sit in the exact same seat, rehearse the exact same creeds, finger a cross in front of you, Sing the exact same hymns and do them all in that exact same order. That’s not what “in order” is signifying.

I didn't say it was. Are you trying to excuse this behavior by comparing it to formal liturgy? Do you think that just because there are REALLY ordered services in certain churches that THEY are not what Paul was talking about? The NT Church wasn't anything like what we see in most churches today. People asked questions, more than one person preached, people would sing special songs, and give testimony, people would prophecy, and there would be ORDER, because each person would GO in order. What I have seen, and you probably see it too, is people ALL AT ONCE speaking in the church. THIS IS NOT ORDER.

I provided my testimony as a means to reach people with an open heart to the Spirit of Truth.

Do not use my testimony as a means to prove what ever it is that you think you should be doing.

If you disagree with me, prove me wrong from the Bible.

Please leave my personal experiences out of this debate.

We aren't here to argue the validity of the traumas that happened to me.

By all means question the things that pertain to the debate, but I would appreciate if you would have more tact, and not focus in on something that you know is a painful thing.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

oops

[ February 27, 2003, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

oops

[ February 27, 2003, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

oops

[ February 27, 2003, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

I didn't get a post confirmation screen so I didn't think it was posting.

IT WAS!

Moderators, you can delete these oops posts.

Thanks

[ February 27, 2003, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

[Singer]

(DK to Singer)
As politely as I can, You're a fraud.

(Singer)
I've enjoyed your approach to issues of salvation and can gladly
say that I comply with the Apostle's Creed. You gave a complete
view of how to be saved on a recent post. I accept my own
salvation by grace through faith and have enjoyed the presence of
the Holy Spirit since my conversion 26 yrs. ago. Concern for my
fellow man's salvation is constantly on my mind and in my practice.
The simplicity of the Gospel should be an overriding factor in a
program of witnessing. We see abuses on this board as well as in
public when witnessing leaves the confines of Jesus and the Holy
Spirit and leans on denominationalism or one of several controversial
practices. Amongst them is the issue of tongues. Two wrongs can
occur here: Denial of tongues or Dependance on tongues.

Salvation is not dependent on either approach. Baptism is another.
Submersion, sprinking, baby baptism etc. will not condemn a person
saved by grace through faith.

(DK)
"With groanings which cannot be uttered," refers to the Holy Spirit only,
never to the person involved.

(Singer)
Cannot be uttered (Without the Holy Spirit's intervention ? maybe)
You're saying we are oblivious to all of the Holy Spirit's dealing in our lives.
I disagree. We can't even say Jesus is Lord without the Spirit.

(DK)
I know for absolutely sure that I am going to Heaven. "Believe on
the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

(Singer)
Been there done that. Grateful for it. Praise God for it everyday. Tell
everyone who will listen....etc. Thanks.

(DK)
My faith is firm. On the other hand, from what you have written, much
of your theology, much of your faith is based on that one little experience
that you had 24 years ago. You can't soundly back it up with Scripture.
The entirety of your Christian life seems to hinge on that one experience.
One experience, one time, one theology forever changed. What if you
were wrong? What if you were deceived? You will no doubt throw back
the same question at me, but there is no need. I don't base any of my life
on experiences. It is all based on the Word of God. The
foundation of our lives needs to be the Word of God.

(Singer)
You might use that reasoning in your attack on those who've had the
experience, but it won't work on me and is wrong within itself. You
are assuming that I put faith in my experience with the Holy Ghost that
replaces my faith in the Word of God. You also assume that the
entirety of my Christian life hinges on it. It doesn't, but it has been a
big assurance of proof of the Living God in my walk. It has enhanced
my belief in the "simplicity of the Gospel" and has more than once kept
me in His service. I simply can never deny our Living God due to this
experience (in part). It has increased my faith. I will never blaspheme
the Holy Ghost. Does that sound demonic to you ? What more can
I say...?

(DK - testimony)
Rebuking Satan in the name of the Lord he put on quite a show for
himself, until we quietly left--somewhat amused--but saddened at such
people that are deceived into thinking they are saved because they
have had an experience, but don't know two cents about the Bible,
including what it says about Biblical salvation.

(Singer)
You ran in to an immature and overzealous recipient. An experience is
never a requirement to salvation; much for the same reason that belonging
to a certain church or worshipping on a certain day isn't either.

So if I'm a fraud, then you can condemn me for believing the plan of
salvation as you believe it. You can also condemn me for praying for
wisdom in private and for referring to the bible for help, for relying on
God in praise and expectation........for I asked of God to reveal things
to me in accordance to the following verse:

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all
men liberally, an upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


(Singer)
For who am I that I can withstand God ?
Has prayer and results of prayer also ceased, DHK ??

Acts 11:17
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did
unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was
I, that I could withstand God?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:
(DK to Singer)
As politely as I can, You're a fraud.

original quote:

As politely as I can, You're a fraud. Or at least anyone who dares to use this verse in defence of speaking of tongues is a fraud. "With groanings which cannot be uttered," refers to the Holy Spirit only, never to the person involved.

My intent was not to call you a name or deliberatley offend you in any way but to demonstrate that any one using this verse as a proof text for speaking in tongues is doing so for the wrong reasons. It simply has nothing to do with tongues.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

HotHead,

Don't forget me, I responded to ya too.

Spitfire

 

[Singer]

Spitfire:

How COULD I forget you, sister ........your mugshot is
plastered everywhere I look.

Actually, responses to you take special preparation.
You should be honored !!!

Hothead

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:

(DK)
"With groanings which cannot be uttered," refers to the Holy Spirit only, never to the person involved.

(Singer)
Cannot be uttered (Without the Holy Spirit's intervention ? maybe) You're saying we are oblivious to all of the Holy Spirit's dealing in our lives. I disagree. We can't even say Jesus is Lord without the Spirit.

We are not oblivious to the Holy Spirit. He leads and guides in our lives. We are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
But when the Bible explicitly says that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us with groanings which cannot be uttered, who am I to question God, or contradict what He says?? If the groanings cannot be uttered, that is a no-brainer, as they would say. You cannot utter them. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, and has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.

Now look carefully at this verse that you took out of context:
1Cor.12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Is the meaning that you attached to it true--that no man can say that Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit?? Is that what this is teaching? If so, the Bible contradicts itself. Look here:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
--Jesus here says that many will call Him Lord, that do not have the Holy Spirit. He will tell them plainly that He never knew them. They will depart (into everlasting fire).
It is interesting to look at the characteristics of these "false" believers--calling Jesus Lord, prophesying in His name, in His name casting out devils, in His name doing wonderful works (tongues, healing, etc.). And Jesus will say: "I never knew you; Depart from me." You experiences obviously don't mean a great deal to the Lord. Maybe that is why the Holy Spirit never inspired a single writer in the epistles to instruct one how to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit, how to seek for the gift of tongues, how to speak in tongues, etc. It just was not important.

What 1Cor.12:3 really means (if you read the context) is: The Corinthian church was primarily composed of Gentile believers. Paul, in verse two reminds them of this fact, and how in the past they worshipped "dumb idols." Behind every idol is a demon. Many of the Corinthians speaking in tongues with no interpretation, were actually cursing Christ, and not praising Him or calling Him Lord. Paul says that the only spirit in you that is going to call Jesus Lord is the Holy Spirit. A demonic spirit won't do that, but there are some of you under the influence of another spirit (not the Holy Spirit) that are cursing Jesus. This is what Paul was saying in these verses. Look around you. Anyone, saved or unsaved, can call Jesus Lord. That is not a difficult thing to do. The context was tongues, the gifts of the Spirit.

(Singer)

You might use that reasoning in your attack on those who've had the experience, but it won't work on me and is wrong within itself. You
are assuming that I put faith in my experience with the Holy Ghost that replaces my faith in the Word of God. You also assume that the entirety of my Christian life hinges on it. It doesn't, but it has been a big assurance of proof of the Living God in my walk. It has enhanced my belief in the "simplicity of the Gospel" and has more than once kept me in His service. I simply can never deny our Living God due to this experience (in part). It has increased my faith. I will never blaspheme the Holy Ghost. Does that sound demonic to you ? What more can I say...?

I am not saying that your experience has replaced your faith, but has greatly affected the way that you believe. If you had not had that experience 24 years ago, would you believe the same way you do now about the Holy Spirit and tongues (assuming you have never spoken in tongues since)? I don't know for sure, but probably not. The question I keep asking, and never get a clear answer is this: How do you know that your experience (speaking in tongues) will never blaspheme God or the Holy Spirit, if you do not know what you are saying? Are you better than the Corinthians? That is apparently what they were doing according to 1Cor.12:1-4.

You ran in to an immature and overzealous recipient. An experience is never a requirement to salvation; much for the same reason that belonging to a certain church or worshipping on a certain day isn't either.

I know this. I agree with you here.

So if I'm a fraud, then you can condemn me for believing the plan of salvation as you believe it.

Don't mean to call you a fraud; only to say that it is wrong to use Rom.8:26 in support of tongues.

You can also condemn me for praying for wisdom in private and for referring to the bible for help, for relying on God in praise and expectation........for I asked of God to reveal things to me in accordance to the following verse:

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, an upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

No, I can't condemn anyone for praying and asking wisdom, as long as it is not for the wrong thing as James 4:1-4 teaches, and as long as it is according to his will (1John 5:14). But all of these things have to do with prayer and not tongues.

For who am I that I can withstand God ?
Has prayer and results of prayer also ceased, DHK ??

Prayer and answer to prayer--God is still in control and He still answers prayer.

Acts 11:17
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

--This was a verse that Peter quoted in the context of giving the gospel to the Gentiles. The gentiles received the gospel and were saved. Previously Peter would never go to the Gentiles. Now, who was he to withstand God. Salvation was granted to the Gentiles also. This is not specifically talking of tongues, but rather that salvation is granted to the Gentiles.
DHK

 

[Singer]

(Spitfire)
The first time we see heaven through immortal eyes will be HERE
on earth. THE HEAVENS WILL OPEN.

(Hothead)
Well...........ya.....kinda .......maybe..........ok.

(Spitrire)
Could you expound for us this journey to heaven? How
long will it take to get there? How will we know the way?
My Bible tells me that Jesus is coming to get us to go to heaven.
What does yours say?

(Hothead)
Says there's two possibilities. Physical death and then those who
are alive at His coming. In the first case, we become absent from the
body (die) and then become present with the Lord .(immediately.)
"To be absent from the body IS to present with the Lord." I don't
think the Lord wants to be surrounded by dead people, so we must
be alive with Him at the time of physical death.

In the second case, we would raise in the rapture to forever be with Him.
Either way.....we're alive after leaving this earth.

(Spitfire)
Does the Bible say that consecration of the tongue results
in mumbling in an incoherent way to God and to man? Does
it mean that we will speak in words that no one can
understand? Therein lies the problem. DO NOT SPEAK if
there is not an interpreter. Who is interpreting if you are doing
'this' while praying? Is it the Holy Spirit? Does HE need you to
speak to Him in an unknown language for YOUR thoughts to
get to God? Does HE need YOU to translate YOUR thoughts that
CANNOT be uttered, in order for them to get to God?
I think you need to give God a little more credit than that. Who
confounded the languages at Babel? GOD. So HE knows ALL the
languages of the world. What ever your heart thinks to say, say
it. What ever your heart cannot put into words, the Holy Spirit
will pass on to God. YOU cannot UTTER THEM. That is WHY you
need the Holy Spirit to DISCERN those thoughts for YOU. IF
you COULD utter them, YOU wouldn't need HIM to do ANYTHING
other than pass it along. You see, YOU are not ABLE to utter
those things. So by you 'uttering' things that you didn't say in
English, you are doing something that the Bible says you
CANNOT.

(Hothead)
We each have our God given impressions as to what the
"Bible says to you ". One thing that really amazes / confounds
me is that hoards of intelligent people can read the same bible
and get totally different opinions. As I told your buddy, DK,
and sited the verse about asking for wisdom................
that is exactly what I did and got the answer that I've shared.
I needent back down and deny what God has given me. We don't
all get the same answers from the bible. .....and just because my
answer differs from someone else's beliefs, doesn't mean it's
not from God.

Prayer may have led you to the SDA Church. Prayer has kept
me out of any church membership. Yet we both pray to the
same God. Can you explain that without saying that I am
not following God..?

Consider that maybe your prayers for employment and direction
have led you to California. My directives from God have never
included California and I'd probably argue with Him if he told me

.
Doesn't mean it's wrong for you though.

(Spitfire)
Do we REALLY consecrate our WHOLE lives to Him? What about
the Seventh day of every week for your whole life? You consecrate your
self to Him, totally, but yet you willfully disobey.

Do you see a contradiction there?

(Hothead)
There must be some merit in the saying..........
"What's right for you isn't necessarily right for me".

Same goes for tongues experiences.
I'm sure the topic of fleeces would bring near the same
responses here.
If ALL gifts have ceased, then fleeces would definitely be
taboo also as they are highly controversial too.

 

[3AngelsMom]

(Hothead)
Says there's two possibilities. Physical death and then those who are alive at His coming. In the first case, we become absent from the
body (die) and then become present with the Lord .(immediately.)"To be absent from the body IS to present with the Lord." I don't
think the Lord wants to be surrounded by dead people, so we must be alive with Him at the time of physical death. In the second case, we would raise in the rapture to forever be with Him.
Either way.....we're alive after leaving this earth.

(Spitfire)
Ok, first I am gonna jump on you for a sec! That verse DOES NOT SAY THAT! (DHK did the SAME THING)

It doesn't say "to be absent IS to be present"

You are MISinterpreting it, and CHANGING it.

I am certain that you don't mean to. So I will give you the benifit of the doubt and just show you what it ACTUALLY says.

2 Cor 5: 8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Conjunction NOT verb.

AND

This passage is not talking about the state of the dead. It is talking about how Paul feels about having to carry on. It would be better for HIM, if he were absent from THIS body, AND present with the Lord.

I cannot help but mention that YOU cannot be absent from your body and still be you. You are a combination of dust and breath. God's breath. When you die, that breath leaves you, and the dust returns to the earth, and the breath returns to God who gave it. YOU 'sleep' in the grave awaiting the resurrection.

The only time that we will be 'absent' from THIS body, is when we are in fact IN the presence of God! For we will ALL be changed.

*DHK stay out of this. We already went there. And back*

(Hothead)
We each have our God given impressions as to what the "Bible says to you ". One thing that really amazes / confounds me is that hoards of intelligent people can read the same bible
and get totally different opinions. As I told your buddy, DK, and sited the verse about asking for wisdom.....that is exactly what I did and got the answer that I've shared. I needent back down and deny what God has given me. We don't
all get the same answers from the bible. .....and just because my answer differs from someone else's beliefs, doesn't mean it's
not from God.

(Spitfire)
Ok, I am not trying to judge you, or your experience, I am only pointing out WHAT the Bible says. There is no private interpretation of Scripture. The Bible says what it says. If it says don't speak in tongues without an interpreter, then it means DON'T SPEAK in tongues without an interpreter! What happened to Solomon when HE prayed for wisdom? Did HE speak in tongues or did he get WISDOM??? DHK isn't my buddy, we just happen to agree on this topic. It is probably the only one.

The hoards of intelligent people who read the Bible and come up with false doctrines do so because they are leaning on their own understanding instead of allowing God to control their understanding.

(Hothead)
Prayer may have led you to the SDA Church.

(Spitfire)
Sort of. I studied on my own for quite some time, and then showed my husband what I had discovered. When we realized that we both had the same concerns we decided to seek God to show us where He wanted us to go. He showed us the truth that is believed by the SDA before we ever stepped foot in an SDA Church. We joined the SDA Church because it was the church that was MOST in line with what the Bible teaches.

(Hothead)
Prayer has kept me out of any church membership. Yet we both pray to the same God. Can you explain that without saying that I am
not following God..?

(Spitfire)
I wouldn't say that. All I can tell you is what God said. He told us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together for worship. He said to do it more when we see the end is near. I can't imagine why God would impress your heart to disobey His Word.

(Hothead)
Consider that maybe your prayers for employment and direction have led you to California. My directives from God have never included California and I'd probably argue with Him if he told me

.

(Spitfire)
Actually California was a suprise! We were praying for God to put us in a Church family where we could grow spiritually and the kids would have lots of friends. It just so happens that the church that God led us to (really cool LONG story) has LOTS of little kids, and we LOVE the family there!

(Hothead)
There must be some merit in the saying..........
"What's right for you isn't necessarily right for me".

(Spitfire)
I cannot agree with that. There is absolute morality, given to us by God. What is right for me, is exactly what is right for you, since GOD gave it to BOTH of us. His WORD is for YOU just as much as it is for me. There is no reason why you should live in wilful defiance of God's Law! Being under Grace, doesn't mean that you can sin as much as you want, and nothing will happen. That just isn't Gospel Truth! Read Galatians.

(Hothead)
I'm sure the topic of fleeces would bring near the same responses here.
If ALL gifts have ceased, then fleeces would definitely be taboo also as they are highly controversial too.

(Spitfire)
I don't think that the gifts have ceased. I just don't think that the manefestations that we are seeing rampant in churches today is one of them. Neither does the Bible.

What are fleeces?

-Spitfire feels honored

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Glorious:
Just gotta say it.

This last post on ONENESS is the best one yet.

OK... "best" as in, he raised all I have had in my mind, plus his thoughts were mine (referring to 3AM's experience).

Thanks Oneness.

Glorious
who has never spoken in tongues and does not desire to, but will not discount them as rubbish.

Glorious, thanks! I have to agree with you, about Brian's (ONENESS) post.

MEE...Still in love with Jesus!!!!

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

The silence speaks volumes. Try the spirits. Have you even tried to?

Yes, through the word of God, By prayer and by fasting.

If it was something from God, you should have immediatly been able to discern if it was. Did you test it against scripture?

What did you do, cut and paste from DHK’s post?

Show me in the bible where it says “If it is from God you will know immediately”. What kind of man made doctrine are you trying to teach? It sounds good, but that’s not the case.

There was a man in the bible by the name of Thomas. You probably know who he is, you’re a smart lady it seems. After Jesus was crucified and risen other disciples came to tell Thomas that they had seen Jesus. What did Thomas say? “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe” (John 20:25).

Just b/c Thomas did not know right away that his Lord had been raised from the dead makes it untrue? Does his doubt make the resurrection not from God just b/c he did not believe his fellow disciples immediately after?

Oh yea and lets not forget what happened to Naaman (II Kings 5:1-15). Do you remember how Elisha told him to go and dip seven times in the Jordan and he would be healed of his leprosy (II Kings 5:10)? Do you remember how Naaman was angered and did not believe it was from God b/c Elisha did not come out and call on the Name of the Lord, strike his hand over him and recover the leprosy (II Kings 5:11).

Just b/c Naaman did not believe that dipping himself in the Jordan 7 times would heal him, did that mean that it was not from God?

Oh…I almost forgot, What about Gideon? Do you remember how God was going to save Israel by Gideon’s hand and Gideon was unsure and needed proof (Judges 6:36-37)? Do you remember how God confirmed it by letting the dew fall on the fleece only and not on the ground surrounding it just like Gideon had asked (Judges 6:38)? Do you remember when Gideon needed just a little bit more from God to believe that God wanted to use him (Judges 6:39)?

Now just b/c Gideon was unsure after the first time that God proved to him that God wanted to use him; did that mean that it was not from God?

So pleas once more show me in the bible where it says that “You will believe without a doubt that God has done it, if “HE” done it.

Confusion is from the devil

Yea confusion is from the devil. Now doesn’t that sound just like to devil? Doesn’t it seem like the devil to come up to someone the moment God touches them and try to convince them it was not from God?

All you DID was pray, that is not ALL you could have done. You could have compared it to scripture and you would have found it to be false.

All I did was pray? So do I have to write a descriptive paper now letting you know what I did every hour of those days when I was praying? Of course I read the bible, of course I compared scripture, but never once did I find it to be false.

And herein lies YOUR problem. You based your belief solely on your experience without weighing it against scripture. This is a very dangerous thing.

No this is what you wished I did so it would support your unbiblical case.

Did you at any point in this prayer read what the Bible says about tongues? Did you ask anyone about it? Please answer these questions.

Yes, the bible says “For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries”(1 Corth 14:2). Don’t worry, I know what the verses right after that say as well. They go to support what I am saying. I will post them later on a separate post. This one is going to be long enough. We don’t need to add 40 verses yet.

Who were you talking to? Was there an interpreter? What were you saying?. If you don't believe that, you are denying the Bible. Paul warned us not to speak in tongues unless there was someone there interpreting. That rules out 'praying' in an unknown tongue.

Who was I talking to? The bible say “he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God” (1 Corth 14:2). I was talking to God.

Was there an interpreter? No I don’t think so. I was not yelling at the top of my lungs speaking in tongues.

What was I saying? Paul said “In the Spirit one speaks mysteries” (1 Corth 14:2). So I don’t know what I was saying.

This is all Biblical. If you are speaking in REAL tongues, from the Holy Spirit, then you will have an interpreter. If you don't believe that, you are denying the Bible. Paul warned us not to speak in tongues unless there was someone there interpreting. That rules out 'praying' in an unknown tongue

Paul said “Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.” (1 Corth 14:13). What happens if you don’t interpret? Does that mean that the tongue was not from God. Every time I speak in tongues or hear someone I pray that I can interpret.

3AM, Do you believe that tongues are spoken to break down a language barrier? Please answer this, no one else has.

If tongues were only to be spoken when there was an interpreter present, Paul would never have said “He that speaketh in an unknown tongue SPEAKS NOT UNTO MAN BUT UNTO GOD (1 Corth 14:2). So NO, that does not rule out “praying in an unknown tongue”.

Paul also said “What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also” (1 Corth 14:15).

So sometimes Paul is going to pray without the understanding and sometimes he will pray with the understanding. Sometimes Paul will sing without the understanding and sometimes he will sing with the understanding.

And that experience was because I had confessed my sin, and was humbled before God. I put the weight of all my guilt and shame at His feet, and was 'renewed' by THAT. I didn't 'feel' anything in my flesh. I felt it in my heart. I felt peace because my sins were forgiven.

That’s a wonderful feeling isn’t it? And like I said before, I felt the same way when God filled me with his Spirit. I didn’t feel anything my flesh. I felt it in my heart. I felt peace because my sins were already forgiven.

Did you not feel whole when you first gave your heart to Jesus? Did you not feel whole when you confessed all your sins and was humble before God?

Honestly? NO! b/c the first time I did that was when I was attending a Baptist Church. All I did was walk to the front when the preacher called me, asked me to say a prayer, I did, and then he said “Jesus is now in your heart”. (No offence), I still go sometimes when we aren’t having services. I enjoy listening to different ministers of different faiths.

It is a Biblical renewal. It is not biblical to pray in an unknown tongue. Paul warned us that if we do this, we are not using the gifts the way that God gave them. He gave them for the edification of the Body of Christ.

Yes he did give the “Gift” of tongues to the edification of the church. But before you can have the “Gift of Tongues”, You have to have the “Gift of the Holy Ghost” FIRST

These people were speaking REAL languages. They weren't just jibberish. They were speaking languages of REAL peoples

Again, Were tongues spoken just to break a language barrier? Yes or a No will suffice me on this.

There is no doubt that you were given an unbiblical experience in answer to your doubts about an unbiblical experience? Have you not ever wondered why God didn't make you speak in this unknown language when you were actually ASKING Him to show it to you? Why did He 'wait' 3 Sundays to do it? If it was Him, why didn't He show you RIGHT WHEN YOU ASKED.

Have you ever wondered why John’s disciples had to be rebaptized in order to receive the Holy Ghost (Acts 19:1-8)?

Have you ever wondered why God did not do something you asked him to do the first time? Of course I wondered that. I wonder that about everything I ask him.

</font>

• God why has my dad not given his heart to you yet</font>
• God where did you come from?</font>
• God how high is up?</font>
• God will you give me 20/20 vision?</font>

Never got an answer on those yet, and I ask him those questions every day, save the one about “How high is up” LOL. And the list could go on and on and on. So, If I was really praying to God don’t you think he would have saved my dad the first time I asked him, don’t you think he would have told me where he came from and how he as always been.

I’m sorry but I don’t have to have God to give me something the moment I ask for it to know that he is God and if what I’m asking for is coming from God.

He gave me the gift of discernment

How easy would it be able for me to say “No he did not” just b/c you don’t believe the exact same thing I believe. I could very easily argue that fact. But here is where I stand on an issue like that. I’m not going to judge you . But so far you have not discerned [/b]anything for me on speaking in tongues.


More on next reply:

God bless

 

[ONENESS]

QUOTE]Do you think that going to church on Sunday gets you closer to God? Why? Is it because you are going on Sunday, or because you are going with a heart that is wanting to get closer to God? Know this: Sunday is not the day that God made for worship. The Holy Sabbath is the Seventh Day of the week, your 'saturday'. NOW, we see people going to church all over the world on sunday, with every intention, and a sincere heart, to please God, yet in their ignorance, they do something that displeases Him. Your ignorance on this issue, is an excuse. In times past God winked at mans ignorance, but is NOW calling all men to repent. The means in which we are drawn closer to God are through effectual fervent prayer *real* prayer, Bible study, worship, fellowship, and sanctified living. There is no room in the sanctified life for something that God did not establish. God did not establish a 'prayer' language. He established a gift for the sake of furthering the Gospel, so that OTHERS could come to Christ. It is not for YOU to get CLOSER to Christ.

? Know this: Sunday is not the day that God made for worship. The Holy Sabbath is the Seventh Day of the week, your 'saturday'. NOW, we see people going to church all over the world on sunday, with every intention, and a sincere heart, to please God, yet in their ignorance, they do something that displeases Him

This shows your ignorance on the word of God. You think that going to church on Sunday displease God? So far all I have heard from you is what you want to say. Where’s the verses, where are the scriptures? I have not seen one yet. You have not supplied me with anything other than what you are trying to say.

The BIBLE SAYS: Roman 14:1-23. I want you to look at verse 4-6 but the whole chapter might edify you.


1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. {not…: or, not to judge his doubtful thoughts}
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. {unclean: Gr. common}
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin

I know this is off subject, but I wanted to bring up a point since I was being accused of being ignorant on a mattter.

4Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks

Paul just told us that some are going to worship God on this day and some will worship God on this day and others on this day. In not so many words Paul said “Shut up, if you going to worship God just do it. It does not matter when just do it”.

You forget something: demons can come in as angels of light. They can appear the same way that REAL angels do. GOOD. This man had a seducing spirit on him, and I didn't see it because I was seduced by him. I will not get angry at you for this assumption, because I know you don't mean it cruely, but you are trying to prove your point by invalidating my experience.

And here is my point. I’m not saying that you don’t have the gift of discernment so don’t take it like that. I will question it however just as you are doing to me.

The real gift of discernment if given just for that, to discern spirits. Whether they appear as angels of light or not true discernment would be able to depict those dark angels who are appearing as light.

Do you not think that discernment of Spirits is a real gift?

Yes!

Do you think that if someone is not obeying the Spirit, or has succombed to lust (which I was), that the Spirit will continue to be in control?

Only if you allow it.

NO! I felt really uncomfortable because I was in his bedroom alone with him! I was a VIRGIN. I had only been kissed 2 times before that. I was uncomfortable because I felt vulnerable. I didn't see any of his demons until after the fact, and my eyes were opened by my repentance for allowing my lust to open me up to be seduced.

You said earlier that gifts are given to us and can be used whenever we want to use them. Why did you have to repent to be able to see them? If you have the gift it is there to use whenever you want.

Do you have any idea what OCD is? Seriously. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain that causes a person to apply excessive importance to things that are trivial. Like checking to see if the silverware drawer is straight 25 times a day. Like making sure that the clothes in the drawers didn't move back when you closed them. It is annoying. I am not a schitzophrenic. That is what you are referring to. You need to read up on the two disorders, they are very different from one another. If you are allowed to watch movies, watch 'As good as it get's' to see a glimps of what a person with OCD is like, and watch 'a beautiful mind' to get a glimps of what someone with paranoid schitzophrenia is like.

I am very much studied up on OCD. There are different types of this as well. Some people like you said apply excessive importance to things that are trivial, like checking to see if their silverware drawer is straight over and over, People washing their hands over and over, checking their doors to make sure they are locked over and over.

But people can become obsessive in their thoughts as well. Not just in their actions. I know this b/c my mother has been diagnosed with it.

Now let me say this with a humble manner. I know how hard and frightening it is to live with stuff like this. I have often laid in bed at night and had a fear of becoming like that. So let me say now that I’m not picking on you or trying to make your difficulties any worse. So please, I’m not trying to JUST blow this off as OCD. And I will pray for you b/c at one point in time I suffered from OCD as well. I thought that I blasphemed the Holy Ghost. But I’m not going into all of that. I just want to let you know that your not alone in your struggles. I know to some extent what you face.

Don't mock me. You have a serious issue here, that you are trying to make humerous. David danced before the Lord. He was humble. He was ALREADY close to God when he did this. This was also a REALLY long time before the Holy Spirit was sent. So this comparison is moot

My intent was not to mock you. Yea the matter is serious, but being humorous is not a bad thing. If we can all laugh we might be able to survive this discussion together.

No the comparison is not “moot”. David danced in the same Holy Spirit that we dance in today. People of his time thought he was crazy. But David had a relationship with God, he had a walk with God. You are doing the same thing people in that day did. You are trying to devour ones relationship with God by saying that tongues, outward worship, music and the way that we praise God is unbiblical and demonic and it’s not for people today.

Your wrong.

I didn't say it was. Are you trying to excuse this behavior by comparing it to formal liturgy? Do you think that just because there are REALLY ordered services in certain churches that THEY are not what Paul was talking about? The NT Church wasn't anything like what we see in most churches today. People asked questions, more than one person preached, people would sing special songs, and give testimony, people would prophecy, and there would be ORDER, because each person would GO in order. What I have seen, and you probably see it too, is people ALL AT ONCE speaking in the church. THIS IS NOT ORDER.

Yes your are right, and yes I have been in those kinds of services. As far as order goes Everyone should be sensitive to the Spirit and move in the direction that His Spirit is moving in. If everyone in the church is praising God than I would say that it is out of order to not praise him. On the other hand if everyone in the church is silence it would be out of order for someone to start yelling and screaming at the top of their lungs.

If we can have a concert for the spotted Owls and the Hump Back Well, we should be able to have one for Jesus.

If you disagree with me, prove me wrong from the Bible.

I have.

God bless

 

[Singer]

(DHK)
Now look carefully at this verse that you took out of context:
1Cor.12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man
speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that
no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy
Ghost. Is the meaning that you attached to it true--that no
man can say that Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit?? Is
that what this is teaching? If so, the Bible contradicts itself.

(Singer)
From your first post on pg 19, you quoted the above.
I disagree that the references was only to the gifts of the
Spirit with emphasis on tongues. My KJV bible gives references
from 1 Cor 12:3 to include Mark 9:40 "For he that is not
against us is on our part" and 1 John 4: 2 "Hereby know ye the
spirits of God: Every spirit that confesseth that
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God"

(DHK)
-Jesus here says that many will call Him Lord, that do
not have the Holy Spirit.

(Singer)
Yes true, but they are only saying "Lord Lord" with no apparent
indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It did not say there are those
who will say that Jesus Christ came in the flesh .....that do
not have the Holy Spirit. That is impossible to do.

It says the opposite.....that those quoting that DO have
the Holy Spirit. You have not proven my statement "We
can't even say Jesus is Lord without the Spirit" to be wrong
or out of context, and it is surely not only used with the
application to tongues. I do not stand corrected. You have
only shown that people do say "Lord Lord" without any heart
committments which we hear all the time from people who use
those words in blasphemy.

 

[Singer]

(DHK)
I am not saying that your experience has replaced your faith,
but has greatly affected the way that you believe. If you had
not had that experience 24 years ago, would you believe
the same way you do now about the Holy Spirit and tongues
(assuming you have never spoken in tongues since)? I don't
know for sure, but probably not. The question I keep
asking, and never get a clear answer is this: How do you
know that your experience (speaking in tongues) will never
blaspheme God or the Holy Spirit, if you do not know what
you are saying? Are you better than the Corinthians? That is
apparently what they were doing according to 1Cor.12:1-4.

(Singer)
My experience is hardly detrimental to me, my faith or my
witnessing. It is a daily reminder to me that God is alive and
only one prayer away. How could something be evil that
happened one time (24 yrs ago) and never been repeated,
but has prompted me to serve the Lord in a greater way
and has been a constant reminder of the power of prayer
and the availability of God ? I can only say that if I had not
"prayed through" that night, I would still have those
questions in my mind. I asked God to meet me and answer
them and this is what happened. I won't go back and call
God a liar and I won't distrust Him in the future; as your
advice would suggest.

(DHK)
The question I keep asking, and never get a clear answer
is this: How do you know that your experience (speaking in tongues)
will never blaspheme God or the Holy Spirit, if you do not know what
you are saying? Are you better than the Corinthians? That is
apparently what they were doing according to 1Cor.12:1-4.

(Singer)
First, I don't agree that your analysis of 1Cor 12 is pertaining to
tongues as the evil that separates believers. Chapter 12 rather
teaches that all the gifts and manifestations are given to every
man to profit withal. It mentions one spirit, working that selfsame
Spirit, one body, many members etc.

I can see how you would miss the whole point when you believe that
all gifts and manifestations have ceased. If you are correct, then every
person that 1 Cor 12 appeals to and instructs is previous history. And
that would mean that these terms do not apply to us today:

1. Same God which worketh all in all (vs 6)
2. To another faith (vs 9)
3. To another the gift of healing (vs 9)
4. For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body (vs 13)
5. Have been all made to drink in to one Spirit (vs 13)
6. Now ye are the body of Christ and members in particular (vs 27)

Please consider what you're promoting DHK. You're putting God out
of commission in favor of your preferences not to believe that the gifts
and manifestations are still in force today.

Do you really mean to discount the we are the "Body of Christ" on the
basis that Paul was only speaking to those present in that ancient church
at Corinth?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:
Yes true, but they are only saying "Lord Lord" with no apparent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It did not say there are those who will say that Jesus Christ came in the flesh .....that do not have the Holy Spirit. That is impossible to do.

It says the opposite.....that those quoting that DO have the Holy Spirit. You have not proven my statement "We can't even say Jesus is Lord without the Spirit" to be wrong or out of context, and it is surely not only used with the
application to tongues. I do not stand corrected. You have only shown that people do say "Lord Lord" without any heart committments which we hear all the time from people who use
those words in blasphemy.

CONTEXT: 1Cor.12:1-3
12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The context of "spiritual gifts" includes the misuse of the gift of tongues which Paul was referring to here. They were "speaking by the Spirit of God," that is "speaking in tongues."
Is it possible for one to call Jesus Lord NOT by the Holy Spirit, but by another spirit? Look at Scripture:

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation.

Mat.8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Mark 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Mark 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
12 And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.

Mark 5:2-8
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

Luke 4:33 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,
34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Luke 8:27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

Demon after demon confessed that Christ was the Holy One of Israel, the Christ, Jesus, the Son of God. They knew who He was and they confessed it. It was Christ that had all authority, and authority over them. He was their authority. He cast them out, authoritatively. He sent them into the herd of swines. Christ has ALL authority, and even the demons confessed to this fact.

"No man calls Jesus Christ Lord, but by the Holy Spirit." The problem was that some of these Corinthians were carnal (1Cor.3:1-3), and had not submitted themselves to the authority of Christ. In fact they had allowed Satan and his demons to have some control over their lives.
"No man speaking by the Spirit of God, calls Jesus accursed." That was the problem. Some of them, empowered by another spirit, a demonic spirit, were calling Jesus accursed. It was not of the Holy Spirit; it was of another spirit. This is the meaning of the verse. It is speaking of tongues and spiritual gifts as the context clearly shows.

This happens quite frequently in Charismatic churches today. A couple of years ago two pastors, visiting a town that they were unfamiliar with decided to go into the nearest evangelical church on a Sunday evening which happened to be a Charismatic church. They were appalled at what they saw. At the time of opening prayer, several stood up and spoke in tongues. One of these men (visiting) was from Greece, and feeling very agitated, said to his friend, "We must leave this place immediately. When out of the church, the other man said, "Why, what is wrong."
He said, "Do you remember the man standing just in front of me, speaking in tongues?
"Yes."
He replied, "He was speaking in perfect Greek, "I love the devil, I love the devil." over and over again.

Now does this bring to mind the teaching given in 1Cor.12:3? It is exactly what was happening in the church in Corinth, and is happening today as well. I ask again, how do you know what you are saying, if you are praising God or Satan, when you don't know what you are saying? You only assume it is the Holy Spirit speaking from within. You are not even sure of that.
DHK

 

[Singer]

(Spitfire)
2 Cor 5: 8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to
be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Ok, first I am gonna jump on you for a sec! That verse DOES
NOT SAY THAT! (DHK did the SAME THING)

(Hothead)
It says that to me and I reference the verse just before it
in II Cor 5:6: "While we are at home in the body, we are
absent from the Lord"

It's either absent or present. We don't go into limbo, purgatory or
sleep in the grave....in my book. That chapter deals with a state of
death and even has the bold print on the top of the KJV bible that
says "Hope of immortal glory" Its the next chapter (6) that deals
with Paul's ministry.

Other bible verses that support this theory includes the thief on the
cross "Today ye shall be with me in paradise" (no deep sleeping),
those grieving over Lazarus had said to Jesus: John 11:24 Martha
saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at
the last day. 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the
life, he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?

So I ask you...........
How could we counter Jesus when he said a living (believing) person
shall never die.? How could I ever accept being DEAD in the grave,
SLEEPING in the grave or worse yet ......ALIVE IN THE GRAVE ?

No....He said "Shall never die" and He said "To be absent from
this body
and present with the Lord" which means the same as absent
from [IS}present with. Only other option is that He is surrounding
himself with dead souls and I don't think that's even biblical.

Another reference to ongoing life:
2 Samuel 12:23
But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back
again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

David did not expect to go to him (sleeping in a grave) or go to him
at some future date. He expected at his own death to reunite with
his son ...immediately. Does it give you peace to look forward to a
few hundred years lying at sleep in a grave? There isn't even a place
for limbo souls in the bible. Bodies lay in graves...souls do not. They
were created as eternal...why would they go dormant for a few years
like the bears in winter.....?

(Spitfire)
What are fleeces?

(Hothead)
Hmmmmm.....the SDA must not believe in them or you'd have been
instructed as such. Type that into your online bible or refer to your
concordance and you'll find it. If all else fails....ask Hothead again.