Too free or not too free, that is the question.

[gb93433]

If one believes in irresistable grace then Jesus was not God because Judas rebelled.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by gb93433:
If one believes in irresistable grace then Jesus was not God because Judas rebelled.

Only if you don't understand what "irresistable grace" means.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Larry;

Greek Interlinear
Act 13:48

akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon
And hearing the nations rejoiced and gloriifed


ton logon tou kuriou, kai episteusan
the word of the Lord, and believed


osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion:
as many as were having been disposed to life eternal.

As I read this above it would seem to me that your interpretation of the Greek is lacking.
It very clearly states we are disposed to eternal life after we believe

My guess is that you can't read the above. You don't konw Greek, as I recall. And the English "were having been" is a perfect tense, meaning that the "disposition" (an unfortunate translation) happened before the believing.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry;
If these gentiles were glad then they believed before.
This verse does not stand on anything but the fact they were saved to. This is the subject and obviously they weren't sure, so when they heard, they were glad they weren't left out. As far as support for being Ordained first it doesn't say if they were or not That's just your input. You first claimed the chronology of the verse because the word ordained appeared first That this shows that we are ordained first.
This is what you originally claimed;

Larry's response;
But that's not what the verse says. It says that those who "were ordained ... believed." The ordaining to eternal life preceded the belief in the verse.

The chornology has nothing to do with it and I walked right through Act 13:48.
Cassidy;
It's funny You don't have anything I'm affraid of, or avoid.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[King James Bond]

ILUVLIGHT,

Do you have trouble reading?

When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were appointed to eternal life became believers. (NLT)

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (NIV)

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NASB)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). (AMP)

This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord. (CEV)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (ESV)

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NKJV)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (K21)

And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (ASV)

And the Gentiles, hearing this, were glad and gave glory to the word of God: and those marked out by God for eternal life had faith. (BBE)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (KJV) (WBS)

The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who were pre-destined to the Life of the Ages believed. (WEY)

And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during; (YLT)

Are you really going to tell Larry that is not clear?

KJB

 

[jarhed]

Jarhed, Learn to format your posts properly.

You did not read my post.

Yes I did.

In your world I did not believe before the foundation of the world...but your world is not Gods'.

That wasn't the issue.

He exists on a different plane. GOD IS THERE and was there where I believed.

Yes, and you believed in time after the foundation of the world, and God chose you before the foundation of the world. This is a matter fo the text of Scripture, what it says. I don't understand why you are not letting the text say what it says.

Please continue to read now, this is the crux of the matter: GOD IS EQUALLY PRESENT EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES ACROSS THE ENTIRE TIME SPACE CONTINUIM!

That is totally irrelevant to this discussion however. We all agree on that.

This is profound yet simple, and also makes Calvinism illogical.

I have not problem being illogical in favor of Scripture. It shows that we are not the system driven by logic; you are.

Wrong about II Peter as well. Scripture is of no private interpretation because it all came from God, through holy men of old, therefore it is in concert and must be interpreted by itself. This is an accepted and well founded law of herm.

Both assertions are correct: It all came from God and must be interpreted by itself. But only one comes from 2 Peter. The second does not.

ALLOW GOD TO INTERPRET GOD, for man cannot, and if he is allowed to grab and jerk VERSES one at a time out of context (i.e. Eph 1:4 and Acts 13:48) then heresy will result...and it has.

You are correct on this. And this is precisely why we must reject your position. It does not take into account all of Scripture in its context.
_________________________________

On this post, i was trying to respond to jarhed and apparently hit edit instead. His post is found in the quotes. Sorry Jarhed.

[ November 03, 2005, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

As far as support for being Ordained first it doesn't say if they were or not That's just your input.

No, it does say that ordained came first. Read teh verse, study the tenses, and it becomes very clear.

[qutoe]You first claimed the chronology of the verse because the word ordained appeared first That this shows that we are ordained first.
This is what you originally claimed;[/quote]Where did I claim anything about word order?

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry;

Where did I claim anything about word order?

Page 1,11th post down. Which was your original claim. Do you deny that now.

But that's not what the verse says. It says that those who "were ordained ... believed." The ordaining to eternal life preceded the belief in the verse.

In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[timothy27]

Come on guys you are fishing for reasons to prove LArry wrong, if you continue to read he clarifies the greek wording, by saying it is the tense that decides what comes first, quit ignoring the stuff that makes your argument incorrect. Larry did not say what you are atrributing to him.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Timothy27;

Come on guys you are fishing for reasons to prove LArry wrong,

Only because he is wrong.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[timothy27]

Only if you ignore what he is saying in his posts.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Larry;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Where did I claim anything about word order?

Page 1,11th post down. Which was your original claim. Do you deny that now.

But that's not what the verse says. It says that those who "were ordained ... believed." The ordaining to eternal life preceded the belief in the verse.

In The Light Of Christ;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]This appears to be an honest mistake on your part due to unclear wording on my part. However, the subsequent posts about grammer did clear this up and apparently you missed it.

Go back and think about what was said. The point I made had nothing to do with word order. You misread it. I wasn't wrong. In the verse, the ordaining precedes the belief in terms of grammar, not word order.

Sorry you misunderstood. But you should have learned from seeing it clarified in subsequent posts.

You can't argue word order from Greek (or any language for that matter). Verb tense determine priority of action.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry;
It cracks me up that you find it necessary to blame me for your mistake.
Your subsequent post.

My only point, Mike, was to point out that Acts 13:38 says one thing, and you say another. You can say it is only one verse, and that is fine. But it is still one verse with the words that God inspired. If God had wanted to say what you said, he certainly could have. He decided not to.

First we weren't talking about Act 13:38 but 13:48. And the verse doesn't say what you and Cassidy says it does at all. It says they believed and as many that did were ordained to eternal life.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[King James Bond]

ILUVLIGHT,

You may really have a problem of reading things backwards. I would have yourself checked out real soon.

I forgot what the name of the disorder is.

Try again;

When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were appointed to eternal life became believers. (NLT)

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (NIV)

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NASB)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). (AMP)

This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord. (CEV)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (ESV)

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NKJV)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (K21)

And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (ASV)

And the Gentiles, hearing this, were glad and gave glory to the word of God: and those marked out by God for eternal life had faith. (BBE)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (KJV) (WBS)

The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who were pre-destined to the Life of the Ages believed. (WEY)

And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during; (YLT)

My wife is Pilipina and in Tagalog it says the same thing. I will check with my Mexican friend and see if it is saying the same thing in Spanish.

I have provided a few English versions for you.

It is clearly saying people that were ordained by God to be believers, believed! It would be very fair to conclude that all the other people did not believe.

Which people did not believe?

All those not appointed by God to eternal life did not believe.

Hope that helps you out!

KJB

 

[2BHizown]

How does that compute with coming to Christ with the trust of a little child? They dont have to read the original manuscripts or to know Greek to be able to place their trust in Christ do they? If Christ causes one to hunger and thirst for Him and they submit to Him as a bondslave its a pretty sure thing that person was chosen before the foundation of the world to be one of Christ's own!!
Now, according to your " those who belive were appointed" that surely gets the cart before the horse as we who are appointed to eternal life will at the given time believe!!

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Dr. A.T. Robertson, a Baptist Greek scholar, says in his Word Study in Acts Volume III p. 200,

"The subject of this verb is the relative clause. By no manner of legerdemain can it be made to mean "those who believe were appointed."

That is exactly what we are saying. The anti-calvinists are saying it should read "those who believe were appointed." We believe it should read "those who were appointed, believed."

Another Greek scholar was Dean Alford who agrees with Robertson--also says, the Greek rendering is 'as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed.'

Exactly! Alford agrees with us that it should read "as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed" instead of "those who believed were disposed to eternal life." Once again you have shown that the best Greek scholars agree with the Calvinists here and disagree with the anti-calvinists.

I have snipped the insulting personal attack regarding rings in noses and Catholic nonsense as it is beneath notice.

 

[Ray Berrian]

TCassidy,

Your presupposition leads you to believe that the words, 'as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed,' suggesting that they only believed in Jesus because He ordained them for this lot in life.

No, what the scholars mean is that the Holy Spirit disposed people to either reject or to received Christ. Those, obviously, who believed in Acts 13:48 welcomed His grace and were saved having become the elect ones and worthy, through Christ, as receiving eternal life.

A disposition to believe comes from the ministry of the Holy Spirit and in finality by the movement of the human will to receive Him. Every sinner has a free will and has a human volition. When sinners hear the Gospel they are called on by God to decide where they want to spend eternity.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Your presupposition leads you to believe that the words, 'as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed,' suggesting that they only believed in Jesus because He ordained them for this lot in life.

No, what the scholars mean is that the Holy Spirit disposed people to either reject or to received Christ.

Sorry, but you have completely misunderstood and misrepresented both Robertson and Alford. Read again what they say. They say that first they were ordained, they they believed.

 

[King James Bond]

Ray,

Another Greek scholar was Dean Alford who agrees with Robertson--also says, the Greek rendering is 'as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed.'

Exactly! All of those that were disposed to eternal life believed.

Without the use of human volition no sinner can receive Jesus as Savior. He knocks at the door rather than knocking down the heart's door. The persuasive ministry of the Holy Spirit leads people to see their need of Jesus Christ. The Bible does not speak of any 'absolutum decretum.'

I do not agree at all with your theory.

I think I have asked you before and I will ask you again;

Can God save babies that are from one day to lets say 4 years old? Yes or no?

What do the babies have to do to be saved?

Yes, I do have a ring in my nose...and I thank God it is His ring in my nose.

2BHizown,

As usual you make a great post.

TCassidy,

Amen!

KJB

 

[Ray Berrian]

You said, 'Can God save babies that are from one day to lets say 4 years old? Yes or no?'

God saved King David's illegitimate baby.

Scripture says, 'He cannot come to me, but I will go to be with him,' with reference to his baby. Yes, God saves minors in cases like this.[End Quote].