Topics that ruffle your feathers?

[evenifigoalone]

If anyone is so depressed to the point that they are thinking of an wrongful exit, they should be admonished and exhorted to resist such behavior and the belief that is ok to then request from God by there trust in Him to help them deal with such suffering.

I'm dedicating tonight to learning how to manage a diabetic diet, so I'll get to your scripture references later....maybe tomorrow evening after work.
Someone who has suicidal ideation needs to be treated gently, as they're already hard on* themselves and attempting to guilt them out of suicide may just make their condition worse. Gentle encouragement and persuasion goes farther.

*In fact, suicidal people are often so guilt ridden that they believe everyone would be better off without them....so to them, they feel that suicide is the selfless action and will make the lives of others easier. Of course, they are wrong, and their thinking needs to be challenged. But again, beating them over the head is not the answer.

An example of gentle encouragement would be this image I shared on Facebook around New Years (artist is The Latest Kate):

 

[JosephBKuzara]

So telling them the truth that no Christian will succomb to suicide because God promises to sustain us but also how to over come such feelings through prayer and renewing of our mind in the word is a bad thing? They should already be convicted by the Spirit inwardly and at times outwardly by the discussions with other saints who hold to the truth, which brings upon them Godly sorrow that leads to repentance. which God promises escape from under sins hold on us to which if they are reborn from above they will listen to another saints stern warning knowing that we are trying to edify them. it is loving them by having them understand the severity of following through with such an action then directing them towards God for there strength instead of relying on themselves to overcome.

They are going through a trust issue and need to be reminded of God's promises and commands to endure and rejoice in such suffering to not give up and lose heart. God who works in us to will and act toward His good pleasure, will not allow us to be overcome by the patterns of the world to give up on our walk in Christ. Which requires participation in Christ's suffering in order to enter the Kingdom as spiritually mature.

you will not convince me nor are you teaching the truth concerning this matter. No where does God say that he will abandon us even amidst great tribulation but will always be with us and in us to endure without losing complete heart, hope and trust in God and His promises.

What embalances one may have, God is able to reverse, I know he has reversed my mental state after suffering from suicidal depression for over 16 years before I was saved and even my homicidal thoughts that followed my suicidal tendencies.

I have suffered great not only in God's discipline towards me but also through righteous obedience, finding myself alone and without a spiritual family member to confide in , in my region. But amidst such mental and physical anguish I have been reborn into, I do not desire suicide as I did in my spiritually dead position before God. and I will never, knowing the truth ever give up on God's promises towards me and stop relying on God for my strength to endure even when people have sought my harm and life for standing my ground in the truth. No a mount of persecution and oppression from professed Christian's and from the ungodly will ever drive me to give up. Because God wants His children to endure and ensures such a fate by His power and promises.

Those who sugar coat the truth will lead and aide others in being ok with suicide in making them think God will overlook such an action as being a possible born again behavior. Even though scripture promises such an action will not occur with His children because His children will never be overcomed with distrust and hopelessness but have peace, comfort, joy, hope and faithfulness amongst there privileged suffering in Christ.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Not trying to convince you m'dude, just trying to counteract any harm you might do to someone with a fragile mental state.

And yes, I believe trying to guilt someone into not committing suicide can be harmful. There are better ways

And yeah God CAN reverse diseases like clinical depression, but that doesn't mean He will. And no, I don't believe suicidal ideation is a trust issue so much as it is a measure of pain.

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[Particular]

So telling them the truth that no Christian will succomb to suicide because God promises to sustain us but also how to over come such feelings through prayer and renewing of our mind in the word is a bad thing? They should already be convicted by the Spirit inwardly and at times outwardly by the discussions with other saints who hold to the truth, which brings upon them Godly sorrow that leads to repentance. which God promises escape from under sins hold on us to which if they are reborn from above they will listen to another saints stern warning knowing that we are trying to edify them. it is loving them by having them understand the severity of following through with such an action then directing them towards God for there strength instead of relying on themselves to overcome.

They are going through a trust issue and need to be reminded of God's promises and commands to endure and rejoice in such suffering to not give up and lose heart. God who works in us to will and act toward His good pleasure, will not allow us to be overcome by the patterns of the world to give up on our walk in Christ. Which requires participation in Christ's suffering in order to enter the Kingdom as spiritually mature.

you will not convince me nor are you teaching the truth concerning this matter. No where does God say that he will abandon us even amidst great tribulation but will always be with us and in us to endure without losing complete heart, hope and trust in God and His promises.

What embalances one may have, God is able to reverse, I know he has reversed my mental state after suffering from suicidal depression for over 16 years before I was saved and even my homicidal thoughts that followed my suicidal tendencies.

I have suffered great not only in God's discipline towards me but also through righteous obedience, finding myself alone and without a spiritual family member to confide in , in my region. But amidst such mental and physical anguish I have been reborn into, I do not desire suicide as I did in my spiritually dead position before God. and I will never, knowing the truth ever give up on God's promises towards me and stop relying on God for my strength to endure even when people have sought my harm and life for standing my ground in the truth. No a mount of persecution and oppression from professed Christian's and from the ungodly will ever drive me to give up. Because God wants His children to endure and ensures such a fate by His power and promises.

Those who sugar coat the truth will lead and aide others in being ok with suicide in making them think God will overlook such an action as being a possible born again behavior. Even though scripture promises such an action will not occur with His children because His children will never be overcomed with distrust and hopelessness but have peace, comfort, joy, hope and faithfulness amongst there privileged suffering in Christ.

Joseph, is God's grace incapable of covering the death of a Christian by that person's own hand?

I agree that we counsel the downhearted to trust God in all things and to walk through the valley in faith.

I do not make a universal statement that God cannot have saved the man who committed suicide because, God does not make that statement.

My question is this: Is God's grace sufficient?

 

[JosephBKuzara]

Joseph, is God's grace incapable of covering the death of a Christian by that person's own hand?

I agree that we counsel the downhearted to trust God in all things and to walk through the valley in faith.

I do not make a universal statement that God cannot have saved the man who committed suicide because, God does not make that statement.

My question is this: Is God's grace sufficient?

God's grace is sufficient to strengthen physically, mentally and spiritually the born again Christian to endure and not give up on there walk in Christ even amidst the hardest of hardships and persecutions. Scripture records what the saints before us went through and did amidst such suffering along with the saints in the near future which can very well be of our generation of what they will go through yet are faithful unto being beheaded for the faith and or enduring to the end upon Jesus' return. GODS GRACE will not allow true saints to give up and throw in the towel in suicide. You all want to teach the possibilty of such actions as being a norm of our Christian walk but scripture does not agree with your theory as nothing is recorded of saints succumbing to suicide. but instead by God's Grace and purpose, He strengthens saints in there weaknesses to move forward and persevere unto either dieing by the hands of evil men or succumbing to our decaying health for the faith.

God's grace is not upon a person who succombs to suicide because they gave up and no true Christian will wholeheartedly give up. Thus such a person was not saved and deposited the Spirit in order to restrain such behavior.

 

[JosephBKuzara]

It is a trust issue, when someone follows through with suicide after with gentleness and patience trying to warn them without sugar coating, yet still refused to place trust in God to move forward to then instead wholeheartedly give up, they certainly did not trust God to help them overcome.


Such is a big sign that they were not partaking in Christ's suffering which is a priviledge of those who are saved, but were suffering under wrath. Because suffering for Christ although painful at times is for our good that brings with it comfort, joy, happiness, rejoicement, perseverance and endurance.

Those who follow through with suicide do not feel that way, otherwise why take matters into your own hands instead of waiting on the Lord? Because they did not believe God could remedy there suffering and help them persevere, seeking to exit in thinking they could end there own suffering apart from waiting on God.

Your being very destructive toward those who are thinking of ending themselves, by comforting them in the act of suicide as not being a behavior of the reprobate.

 

[evenifigoalone]

If suicide is a behavior of non-Christians only as you say, then it shouldn't matter whether one encourages them or not, amirite. So if one is truly saved, by your logic, how can I hurt them by my methods. They won't go through with it anyways, according to you. (Unless you believe salvation can be lost?)

At any rate, we are not going to come to any sort of agreement any time soon. I continue on for the sake of those who are silently reading this conversation.
And so far as that goes, I'll just say that your last few posts have been opinion only. I had responded to your scripture references, and will respond to the last post you made with scripture references this evening. You didn't respond to my counters to your use of scripture at all, maybe start there.

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[xlsdraw]

Jeremiah 32:27
"Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?"

Mark 9:23-24
23) Jesus said to the man, "If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." Desperate for any kind of help for his son, the man cried out with tears, "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."
24) Jesus then healed the boy.

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, "Because of your unbelief: For verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

1 John 4:4
"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

Philippians 4:13
"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

Matthew 28:17-18
17) And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Matthew 7:7-11
7) "Ask and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
9) Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"

John 16:33
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh, even our faith.

Revelation 3:21
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne. Even as I also overcame, and am sat down with my Father in his throne."

 

[Particular]

God's grace is sufficient to strengthen physically, mentally and spiritually the born again Christian to endure and not give up on there walk in Christ even amidst the hardest of hardships and persecutions. Scripture records what the saints before us went through and did amidst such suffering along with the saints in the near future which can very well be of our generation of what they will go through yet are faithful unto being beheaded for the faith and or enduring to the end upon Jesus' return. GODS GRACE will not allow true saints to give up and throw in the towel in suicide. You all want to teach the possibilty of such actions as being a norm of our Christian walk but scripture does not agree with your theory as nothing is recorded of saints succumbing to suicide. but instead by God's Grace and purpose, He strengthens saints in there weaknesses to move forward and persevere unto either dieing by the hands of evil men or succumbing to our decaying health for the faith.

God's grace is not upon a person who succombs to suicide because they gave up and no true Christian will wholeheartedly give up. Thus such a person was not saved and deposited the Spirit in order to restrain such behavior.

Joseph, you are making an unsubstantiated judgment upon those who die by suicide, saying that they can, in no way, have been chosen and adopted children of God. There is no substantial proof in scripture for your assertion. Therefore you are stating an opinion, which you are welcome to hold, that is not, nor can it be, fact.
I happen to hold a different opinion and view your opinion as a simplistic opinion not born out in experience.

 

[xlsdraw]

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Okay, heading home. Once I manage to pry my brother off my laptop, I'll get to debunking the misuse of scripture.

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[evenifigoalone]

If anyone is so depressed to the point that they are thinking of an wrongful exit, they should be admonished and exhorted to resist such behavior and the belief that is ok to then request from God by there trust in Him to help them deal with such suffering. Along with correcting our beliefs of why we suffer and how we should react and live in such suffering.
Hebrews 12:4-11
Romans 5:3-5
1 Peter 4:1;12-13
1 Peter 5:10
Colossians 1:24
James 1:2-4;12
John 16:33
Luke 14:27
Philipp 3:10
2 Corinthians 1:3-4
1 Peter 1:6-7
1 Peter 2:19-21
Philippians 1:29
2 Corinthians 4:8-10;16-18
Romans 8:28
John 16:33
2 Corinthians 1:3-4
1 Corinthians 10:13
2 Corinthians 1:5
Psalm 119:50
Romans 8:17-18
1 Peter 5:7
Revelation 2:10
Acts 14:22
Matthew 10:22(an authentic behavior of being genuinely saved by faith alone in the testimony of Jesus)
Jeremiah 29:11

*cracks knuckles*

Hebrews 12:4-11 is about discipline specifically, not suffering in general. I believe that God lets us face the consequences of our actions, but I wouldn't say that giving us a mental illness that affects our ability to cope and makes us long for release is an act of discipline.
I'm trying to look up the original greek word used for the word that is translated as "hardship", but this is what I found (screenshot from Biblehub):

So I'm not sure if the word hardship was added in order to make the verse read less confusingly in English, or what.

No issues with your use of Romans 5:3-5

I would put forth that 1 Peter 4:1 & 12-13 are about suffering persecution, not about suffering illness.

No issues with your use of 1 Peter 5:10

No issues with your use of Colossians 1:24

No issues with your use of James 1:2-4, 12

John chapter 16 appears to, again, be about persecution specifically

No issues with your use of 2 Corinthians 1:3-4

Nothing about 1 Peter 1 says that if we fail to stick out our trials by opting out, that we are not saved.

1 Peter 2 is about persecution

Philippians 1:29 is also about persecution

I would suggest that 2 Corinthians 4:8-20, 16-18 are also about enduring persecution.

No issues with your use of Romans 8:28

No issues with your use of 2 Corinthians 1:3-4

1 Corinthians 10:13....and yet, Christians give in to temptation all the time. Suicide is no different.

No issues with your use of 2 Corinthians 1:5

No issues with your use of Psalm 119:50

Romans 8:17-18 appears to also be about persection tbh, considering the phrase "share in His sufferings" .........you know, I never realized, before, how many of the Bible verses that talk about suffering are actually about the persecution that the early church endured.

No issues with your use of 1 Peter 5:7

Revelation 2:10 is about persecution, the verse even specifically says this

Acts 14:22 I would suggest, is also persecution. The verse we went over last time (it was in Revelation I think?) that says cowards would not make it to heaven, was, once you looked into the historical context and original Greek, specifically about self-proclaimed Christians who gave into Cesar and persecution in order to save themselves.

Matthew 10:22 is also about persecution....huh.

Jeremiah 29:11 is talking to the nation of Israel, not us.

In short, none of these verses suggest that suicide is a litmus test for one's salvation. Neither do they suggest that Christians cannot suffer from severe mental illness, like major depressive disorder, that impacts their quality of life.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Jeremiah 32:27
"Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?"

Not sure what you're trying to argue here tbh. Giving a string of verses with no commentary or argument is a little confusing. I'll assume this is about suicide being a salvational issue.
When people are in so much pain that they're beginning to consider or long for suicide, God can deliver and comfort them. That doesn't necessarily mean He takes that pain away, even though He certainly can.

Mark 9:23-24
23) Jesus said to the man, "If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." Desperate for any kind of help for his son, the man cried out with tears, "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."
24) Jesus then healed the boy.

Not sure what your point is here.

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, "Because of your unbelief: For verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Not sure what your point is here.

1 John 4:4
"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

1 John 4 is about testing the spirits, not about suffering

Philippians 4:13
"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

Not sure what your point is here.

Matthew 28:17-18
17) And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Nothing here that hasn't already been addressed.

Matthew 7:7-11
7) "Ask and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
9) Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"

God does comfort us during times of trouble. Doesn't mean it's not still overwhelming, and that we don't face the same things more than once sometimes. I believe someone can be in a suicidal state, and still lean on God. Actually, those people are sometimes the closest to God.

My issue with all of this is this: God isn't condemning the brokenhearted. God is near to them, and offers them encouragement and comfort even while they remain in that state. So why are we as Christians, wanting to hit them over the head with a chair, instead?

John 16:33
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Turns out, this one is also about persecution.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh, even our faith.

This is about keeping God's commands....which we all fall short of, even after salvation. The verse is about us overcoming our sin nature. It's not about suffering or about suicide.

Revelation 3:21
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne. Even as I also overcame, and am sat down with my Father in his throne."

This is about staying strong in the faith, not about suffering or suicide.

 

[Yeshua1]

Joseph, is God's grace incapable of covering the death of a Christian by that person's own hand?

I agree that we counsel the downhearted to trust God in all things and to walk through the valley in faith.

I do not make a universal statement that God cannot have saved the man who committed suicide because, God does not make that statement.

My question is this: Is God's grace sufficient?

the only sin that the blood of Jesus cannot overcome is that of unbelief, and while we must indeed encourage and exhort believers in Christ to trust on God, still we have things such as divorce and even suicide, but the grace of God is sufficient!

 

[Particular]

the only sin that the blood of Jesus cannot overcome is that of unbelief, and while we must indeed encourage and exhort believers in Christ to trust on God, still we have things such as divorce and even suicide, but the grace of God is sufficient!

Here we will disagree. Jesus atonement covers all sin. However, Jesus atonement is only for those God elects to save. Therefore anyone whom God does not elect to save has no atonement for any sin committed. Jesus does not atone for all sins, except the sin of unbelief when talking about those God chooses not to elect unto salvation. In that case no sin is atoned for at all. Every sin is as red as scarlet, unattoned for by Jesus. His sacrifice is not on their behalf.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here we will disagree. Jesus atonement covers all sin. However, Jesus atonement is only for those God elects to save. Therefore anyone whom God does not elect to save has no atonement for any sin committed. Jesus does not atone for all sins, except the sin of unbelief when talking about those God chooses not to elect unto salvation. In that case no sin is atoned for at all. Every sin is as red as scarlet, unattoned for by Jesus. His sacrifice is not on their behalf.

I also hold to particular /limited atonement view, same as you do, but unbelief is still the sin that lost sinners do to stay lost in their sins!

 

[Particular]

I also hold to particular /limited atonement view, same as you do, but unbelief is still the sin that lost sinners do to stay lost in their sins!

People are lost in sin because they are in rebellion against God's Sovereignty. Unbelief is just one of the many violations for which they are justly condemned.
Indeed, we would be equally condemned if it were not for God immersing us into Christ Jesus so that Jesus life is exchanged for ours.

To say that rebels aren't saved because only unbelief is not atoned for is incorrect. Nothing has been atoned for in the person whom God has not elected to save.

 

[Yeshua1]

People are lost in sin because they are in rebellion against God's Sovereignty. Unbelief is just one of the many violations for which they are justly condemned.
Indeed, we would be equally condemned if it were not for God immersing us into Christ Jesus so that Jesus life is exchanged for ours.

To say that rebels aren't saved because only unbelief is not atoned for is incorrect. Nothing has been atoned for in the person whom God has not elected to save.

I agree with you that the lost have not been purchased back by the blood of Christ, as that was not the intent of God via the Cross, but they still persist in unbelief towards Jesus saving them!

 

[Revmitchell]

God's grace is sufficient to strengthen physically, mentally and spiritually the born again Christian to endure and not give up on there walk in Christ even amidst the hardest of hardships and persecutions. Scripture records what the saints before us went through and did amidst such suffering along with the saints in the near future which can very well be of our generation of what they will go through yet are faithful unto being beheaded for the faith and or enduring to the end upon Jesus' return. GODS GRACE will not allow true saints to give up and throw in the towel in suicide. You all want to teach the possibilty of such actions as being a norm of our Christian walk but scripture does not agree with your theory as nothing is recorded of saints succumbing to suicide. but instead by God's Grace and purpose, He strengthens saints in there weaknesses to move forward and persevere unto either dieing by the hands of evil men or succumbing to our decaying health for the faith.

God's grace is not upon a person who succombs to suicide because they gave up and no true Christian will wholeheartedly give up. Thus such a person was not saved and deposited the Spirit in order to restrain such behavior.

This post is wrong, unscriptural, and dangerous. Therefore it is evil. You need to stop talking about things you know not of. Shame on you.

This fella is not to be paid attention to. His view is an outlier and unorthodox. Pay him no mind.

 

[Yeshua1]

This post is wrong, unscriptural, and dangerous. Therefore it is evil. You need to stop talking about things you know not of. Shame on you.

This fella is not to be paid attention to. His view is an outlier and unorthodox. Pay him no mind.

His "advise" could be very damaging to any among us who are experiencing such issues....