"Torah Observant"

[Dr. Walter]

Here are your comments:

Originally Posted by Chowmah
In fact the book of Galatians is a book containing 6 very short chapters. In these 6 chapters circumcision is mentioned 16 times. The commandments are not mentioned at all. Not once. Yet, people like you Doc, that wish to do away with GODS commandments use scriptures from Galatians to try and do so.

However, this statement is not accurate. Paul on more than one occassion in the book of Galations uses the plural "WORKS of the law"

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

and defines "the law" to be representative of the "covenant" given at Mount "Sinai" where the ten commandments were given and included in "the law" under consideration in the book of Galatians:

21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Indeed, Paul makes it clear he is talking about "ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK of the law and not merely circumcison as you wrongly suggest:

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law [Mount Sinai law], are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


Indeed, previous to the above statment he affirms that "the law" he is speaking about was given 430 years after Abraham lived - meaning the law at Mount Sinai:

Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

It is this contrast between the Law covenant which included the Ten commandments that Paul contrasts with justification by faith and denies repeatedly that no flesh is justified by keeping the Mosaic law with the ten commandments or the "covenant" at "Mount Sinai"

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law [Mount Sinai law], but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law[Mount Sinai law], : for by the works of the law [Mount Sinai law], shall no flesh be justified.

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law [Mount Sinai law], are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law [Mount Sinai law],to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law [Mount Sinai law],in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law [Mount Sinai law],is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law[Mount Sinai law],, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Again your comments:

The law of circumcism is one of the carnal ordinances of the law that were nailed to the cross. The “many” will also try and tell you that the ordinances and the ten commandments are simply parts of the law and are not separate from one another.


Paul explicitly contradicts your commentary above and includes ALL THINGS in the Covenant Law given at Mount Sinai and not just circumcision:

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law [Mount Sinai law], are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law [Mount Sinai law],to do them.

Note that "the law" in Galatians 3:10 is the same "the law" previously addressed from chapter two and immediately defined as "the law" given 430 years after Abraham lived in Galations 3:17:

Gal. 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

When and to whom was circumcision given? To Abraham. However, "the law" Paul speaks about is 430 years after Abraham at Mount Sinai and is the "covenant" law which includes the ten commandments. Just a couple verses later he defines it again as the law that was "added" after Abraham

Gal. 2:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


Moreover he contines to not only deny anyone can be justified by keeping the Mosaic law and "all things which are written in the book of the law" but that it was not "added" for people to obtain eternal life by keeping it.

Gal. 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

But it was given to be a schoolmaster to LEAD them to faith in Christ to find eternal life:

Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



Therefore EVERYTHING you stated was false. The book of Galatians was written by Paul to expose and condemn the very thing you embrace and teach - justification by THE WORKS of the law - the covenant law given at Mount Sinai and not merely PART but "ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW" which includes the Ten commandments.

 

[Chowmah]

1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And although the law of circumcision was nailed to the cross, Gods law (the 10 commandments) are to be kept.

 

[Chowmah]

Dont know why the Song of Moses came to mind while reading what you said about Gods law

REVELATION 15 [2] And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and THEM THAT HAD GOTTEN THE VICTORY OVER THE BEAST, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.[3] And they SING THE SONG OF MOSES the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.[4] Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

The above new testament scripture says that those who do get victory over the beast will “sing the song of Moses”. Hows your voice Doc

DEUT.31[21] And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.[22] MOSES THEREFORE WROTE THIS SONG THE SAME DAY, and taught it the children of Israel.[23] And he gave Joshua the son of Nun a charge, and said, Be strong and of a good courage: for thou shalt bring the children of Israel into the land which I sware unto them: and I will be with thee.[24] And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,[25] That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,[26] TAKE THIS BOOK OF THE LAW, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.[27] For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?[28] Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.[29] For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; AND EVIL WILL BEFALL YOU IN THE LATTER DAYS; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.[30] And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.

This is the only song of Moses i could find (verse 22). It shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness and evil will befall you in the latter days. Take this book of the law, that it may be there for a witness against thee. A witness against thee Doc. Whys that?

 

[Chowmah]

Speakin of the beast

REV.14 [9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

above scripture sign – hand - forehead (between the eyes) - cup of indignation – the bad guys
below scriptures sign – hand - between thine eyes (forehead) - the LORDS LAW – the good guys

EXOD.13 [9] And it shall be for a SIGN unto thee UPON THINE HAND, and for A MEMORIAL BETWEEN THINE EYES, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

DEUT.6 [2] That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and HIS COMMANDMENTS, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.[8] And thou shalt bind them for A SIGN UPON THINE HAND, and they shall be AS

 

[Chowmah]

Again your comments:

The law of circumcism is one of the carnal ordinances of the law that were nailed to the cross. The “many” will also try and tell you that the ordinances and the ten commandments are simply parts of the law and are not separate from one another.


Paul explicitly contradicts your commentary above and includes ALL THINGS in the Covenant Law given at Mount Sinai and not just circumcision:

EXODUS 24 [12] And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, AND a law, AND commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

Is means is and and means and. Right Billy C. We can see that the law AND the ten commandments are separate. They are not lumped into 600 plus commandments called the law as the "many" claim. The reason they make this claim is to point to one liners which are usually talking about the law of circumcision and apply that one liner to the ten commandments. This is done to extreme with the book of Galatians like i said before

1 COR.7 [18] Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.[19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

In above scripture we find that even though circumcision was nailed to the cross, we are still to be keeping Gods ten commandments. Mr walters has yet to interpret his way out of above scripture

JOHN 7 [21] Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.[22] Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.[23] If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

If what the "many" claim were true John 7 wouldnt be saying what it says. It clearly separates the sabbath day on which no work is to be done and the law of circumcision being done on the sabbath so as the law of Moses be not broken.

 

[Chowmah]

However, "the law" Paul speaks about is 430 years after Abraham at Mount Sinai and is the "covenant" law which includes the ten commandments.

DEUT.4
[13] And he declared unto you HIS COVENANT, which he commanded you to perform, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

I really shouldnt need to comment on this scripture but somehow i know the Doc will find the covenant of circumcision in there somewhere

 

[Chowmah]

Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

You still dont get it, do ya Doc?

We could never be justified by the works of the law but...

ROMANS 3 [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

You wish to make Gods law void. Why?

PSALM 119 [126] It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law

And not lookin good for you and yours

 

[Dr. Walter]

You still dont get it, do ya Doc?

We could never be justified by the works of the law but...

ROMANS 3 [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

You wish to make Gods law void. Why?

PSALM 119 [126] It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law

And not lookin good for you and yours

What I don't get is what happened to our discussion on Galatians????????? What happened to your claim that Galatians did not deal with anything other than the law of circumcision but does not deal with the law established at Mount Sinai?????

You seem to talk about whatever pops into your head and then go off in hundred different directions.

You are demonstrating exactly why it is useless to talk to you about anything.

 

[Dr. Walter]

1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And although the law of circumcision was nailed to the cross, Gods law (the 10 commandments) are to be kept.

What has this got to do with your discussion about the book of Galatians???? Do you think you can reinterpret the book of Galatians by inserting 1 Cor. 7:19 into it so as to magically remove the ten commandments involved in "the law" in Galatians?????

Galatians is talking about being justified by the ten commandment keeping plus all other Mosaic laws whereas Corinthians is talking about christian living not justification!

 

[Dr. Walter]

DEUT.4
[13] And he declared unto you HIS COVENANT, which he commanded you to perform, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

I really shouldnt need to comment on this scripture but somehow i know the Doc will find the covenant of circumcision in there somewhere

:thumbsup: You are condemning your own interpretation of Galatians and don't even realize it!!! You think you are responding to my verse when you are confirming what I said.

 

[Dr. Walter]

EXODUS 24 [12] And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, AND a law, AND commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

Is means is and and means and. Right Billy C. We can see that the law AND the ten commandments are separate. They are not lumped into 600 plus commandments called the law as the "many" claim. The reason they make this claim is to point to one liners which are usually talking about the law of circumcision and apply that one liner to the ten commandments. This is done to extreme with the book of Galatians like i said before

1 COR.7 [18] Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.[19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

In above scripture we find that even though circumcision was nailed to the cross, we are still to be keeping Gods ten commandments. Mr walters has yet to interpret his way out of above scripture

JOHN 7 [21] Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.[22] Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.[23] If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

If what the "many" claim were true John 7 wouldnt be saying what it says. It clearly separates the sabbath day on which no work is to be done and the law of circumcision being done on the sabbath so as the law of Moses be not broken.

Are you serious? Sure the ten commandments can be distinguished from the ceremonial laws in the sense they are the foundation for ceremonial and civils laws but the ten commandments cannot be separated from the Mosaic Covenant any more than the ceremonial and civil laws can be separated from the Mosaic covenant. Paul is including ALL THESE LAWS when he uses the word "covenant" and denying ALL or ANY can justify anyone.

Or do you really believe the Covenant at Mount Sinai omitted the ten commandments? Paul is denying "the law" in its most COMPREHENSIVE sense (Moral, civil, ceremonial) can justify anyone!! Look at the comprehensive langauge used by Paul in Galatians, not merely "covenant" but

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

He is talking about all 600 plus commandments found in the book of Moses from Genesis to Deuteronomy. - "ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN"!! Can you find the ten commandments written in Exodus and Deteronomy??????????

 

[Dr. Walter]

Are you serious? Sure the ten commandments can be distinguished from the ceremonial laws in the sense they are the foundation for ceremonial and civils laws but the ten commandments cannot be separated from the Mosaic Covenant any more than the ceremonial and civil laws can be separated from the Mosaic covenant. Paul is including ALL THESE LAWS when he uses the word "covenant" and denying ALL or ANY can justify anyone.

Or do you really believe the Covenant at Mount Sinai omitted the ten commandments? Paul is denying "the law" in its most COMPREHENSIVE sense (Moral, civil, ceremonial) can justify anyone!! Look at the comprehensive langauge used by Paul in Galatians, not merely "covenant" but

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

He is talking about all 600 plus commandments found in the book of Moses from Genesis to Deuteronomy. - "ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN"!! Can you find the ten commandments written in Exodus and Deteronomy??????????

Your problem is that you cannot distinguish contexts that deal with the proper use of the law versus contexts that condemn the improper use of the law. The improper use of the law is justification by law keeping. The proper use of the law is for defining that which is good from that which is evil.

The law is done away with as a basis for justification. However, the law is NEVER done away with for the purpose it was given - to reveal right and wrong.

 

[Chowmah]

Ya know what Doc, ive been reading the book again, its only 6 short chapters. I see wording that helps me see some of the things you see and alls i wanna do is get it right. I still believe the discussion is mainly about circumcision as it is mentioned 16 times and the greek word "entole" which is the word used for the 10 commandments cannot be found once. Would it be OK if we look at this 1 chapter at a time and go slowly?

 

[Chowmah]

If your answer is yes i think the only 2 verses in chapter 0ne that need to be looked into are verses 8 & 9. If you can find others im all ears.

Galatians 1:8-9 (KJV)
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Whats it mean to be accursed? Does it have to do with the blessing and the curse? Why in the footnotes does it direct me to Deut.4{2}? Went there and did not find the word accursed.

 

[Dr. Walter]

If your answer is yes i think the only 2 verses in chapter 0ne that need to be looked into are verses 8 & 9. If you can find others im all ears.

Galatians 1:8-9 (KJV)
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Whats it mean to be accursed? Does it have to do with the blessing and the curse? Why in the footnotes does it direct me to Deut.4{2}? Went there and did not find the word accursed.

Notice the langauge "let him be". Paul nor any other human being can make a person accursed. However, it is the protection of the churches from those teaching this doctrine that Paul is concerned about. He directs them to "let him be accursed" or regard and treat them as accursed. In the Old Testament, those things regarded as accursed were to be separated from Israel. Paul is directing them to separate such persons from their company. Hence, his directions are similar to those given to the Thessalonican's (2 Thes. 3:6,14) and to the Romans (Rom. 16:17-18) and to Titus (Tit. 3:10) or the instructions given to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:6-7).

The Old Testament Jewish method for regarding and dealing with things accursed is spelled out in Deuteronomy 7:26.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Ya know what Doc, ive been reading the book again, its only 6 short chapters. I see wording that helps me see some of the things you see and alls i wanna do is get it right. I still believe the discussion is mainly about circumcision as it is mentioned 16 times and the greek word "entole" which is the word used for the 10 commandments cannot be found once. Would it be OK if we look at this 1 chapter at a time and go slowly?

Ok. But what you fail to see is that circumcision is like marijana. Marijana is a pathway drug. It is the starting place for drug addiction that merely opens the door to stronger drugs. Likewise circumcision is the starting place for law keeping. It is where you begin a life committed to the "works of the law." For a child it begins at eight days old. For an adult proselyte it is the door to Judiasm as a lifestyle of keeping the commandments.

Another thing you fail to see is that Paul not only uses the PLURAL rather than the SINGULAR "works" of the Law but defines "the law" to be inclusive of "ALL THINGS THAT ARE WRITTEN in the book of THE LAW" (Gal. 3:10).

Furthermore, Paul makes it clear that circumcision is merely the door to keeping the "covenant" that was given at Mount Sinai which includes not merely the Ten Commandments but the civil and ceremonial laws as well.

However, the reason that circumcision is the focus is because like marijana it is the DOORWAY and Paul does not want these Gentile Christians to enter that DOORWAY because it is a doorway that commits that person to THE WHOLE COVENANT OF LAW KEEPING.

If you will read these chapters with this idea of a DOORWAY concept of circumcision then everything will open up to you that is being said by Paul in chapters 1-4. Chapter five turns to the life of the Spirit versus the life of the flesh.

 

[Chowmah]

The Old Testament Jewish method for regarding and dealing with things accursed is spelled out in Deuteronomy 7:26.

Deuteronomy 7:25-26 (KJV)
25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the Lord thy God.
26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

This is speaking of graven images which 90% or more christians have in their homes today.

Hebrew Strong's Number: 2764
Hebrew Word: ‏חֵרֶם‎
Transliteration: ḥērem
Phonetic Pronunciation:khay'-rem

Hebrew Word: ‏חֶרֶם‎
Transliteration: cherem
Phonetic Pronunciation: kheh'-rem

Root: from <H2763>
Cross Reference: TWOT - 744a, 745a
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: None


Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
net 9
accursed thing 9
accursed 4
curse 4
cursed thing 3
devoted 3
destruction 2
devoted thing 2
dedicated thing 1
destroyed 1
[Total Count: 38]

or (Zech. 14:11) cherem, kheh'-rem; from <H2763> (charam); physically (as shutting in) a net (either literal or figurative); usually a doomed object; abstract extermination :- (ac-) curse (-d, -d thing), dedicated thing, things which should have been utterly destroyed, (appointed to) utter destruction, devoted (thing), net.Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Your Deut.7 doesnt seem to have a connection of whats being spoken of in Gal.1

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

He is talking about all 600 plus commandments found in the book of Moses from Genesis to Deuteronomy. - "ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN""
...
"ON THESE TWO Commandments hang the WHOLE Law"

Which Two?

"Love God above all ... you neighbour as yourself".

Therefore, Paul is talking of NONE OTHER than THESE two Laws where he wrote, ""Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

It is possible the ceremonial laws can be kept; it is possible none of the Ten Commandments are transgressed so that it can be seen and no one could deny.

BUT NNE KEEPS OR CAN KEEP THE TWO LAWS which are the one and only Law of God's Kingdom.

But most Christians make their obedience to God's IMPOSSIBLE-to-keep-Law their pride and own righteousness of works.

 

[Chowmah]

Why in the footnotes does it direct me to Deut.4{2}?

This is still buggin me

Deuteronomy 4:2 (KJV)
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Why direct me here

 

[Chowmah]

"Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

So your saying the "accursed" of Gal.1 is the same as the "cursed" of Gal.3


But Gal.3 says you are cursed if you do not continue in all the things which are written in the law to do them