Oh by the way i was just thinkin. "by the works of the law" could easily be refering to just circumsicion or any other single law. Now if it said "by the work of the laws" that would be more than 1 of the laws.
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"Torah Observant"
- Thread starter annsni
- Start date
Oh by the way i was just thinkin. "by the works of the law" could easily be refering to just circumsicion or any other single law. Now if it said "by the work of the laws" that would be more than 1 of the laws.
Do you know that most of the "saved" do not live in the city and do not have the right to the tree of life which is in the city and yet they are still called "the saved"?????
In Revelation 21:24 there are "nations" of "THE SAVED" who live on the earth and do not live in the city but merely walk "in the light of" the city. Outside the city is more than the lake of fire. There is a whole new earth outside the city and their are inhabitants that live on this new earth who are "saved" but who do not live inside the city. There are those who are "saved" who do live inside the city (Rev. 22:1).
In Revelation 22:2 these nations who are "SAVED" do not have access to the tree of life and are not permitted to eat of its fruit but rather their part is the "leaves." Do you know why their part is the "leaves" and not the "fruit"????
Well Doc, never heard this before. Is it all taken from revelation? Do any other books back up your story?
Dr. Walter
New Member
Oh by the way i was just thinkin. "by the works of the law" could easily be refering to just circumsicion or any other single law. Now if it said "by the work of the laws" that would be more than 1 of the laws.
Sorry, but that is simply not true. The whole Sinai Covenant is consistently called "the Law" and the individual aspects of that covenant are its "works" which cover over 600 plus commandments.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Well Doc, never heard this before. Is it all taken from revelation? Do any other books back up your story?
As a matter of fact, there are other books in the New Testament that back this up (I Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Tim. 2:1-8; etc.).
Dr. Walter
New Member
Chowmah,
You understand that you must keep God's commandments to be justified "under the law." You go the general directions down pat.
However, you do not understand how God defines "keep" and therefore you do not understand the BAD news and there is no GOOD news for you until you grasp what is the BAD news.
As long as you are attempting to "keep" the commandments in order to be justified "under the law" then you have no need of Jesus Christ - This is the bottom line message behind the whole book of Galatians.
Circumcision is merely the door way where one begins "under the law" to attempt to "keep" God's commandments. It is the door way to keeping the commandments of God because this is where a person starts in life to come "under the law". The baby is circumcised at eight days old. The gentile proselyte begins with circumcision - it is the doorway to "the works of the law" as a "covenant" of works.
You want to ignore it but Galatians 3-4 define "the works of the law" as the "covenant" given at MOUNT SINAI and is called "the law."
You want to ignore it, but what was given in the covenant at Mount Sinai was the TEN COMMANDMENTS and therefore the "works of the law" Paul is speaking about includes the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
There is no possible way you can deny this and be truthful and honest with Galatians 3:10-4:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
The "cursed" does not refer merely to those who do not submit to circumcision but "to all things written in the book of the law to do THEM"
This text alone proves that your interpretation of "the works of the law" merely refers to circumcision is wrong.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years AFTER, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was ADDED because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
4:21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
No one can honestly read these scriptures and come to the conclusion that Paul is talking ONLY about circumcision. He is talking about "the covenant" that was given at "Mount Sinai" and all "the works" of that covenant or "all things written in the book of the law" not merely one thing written in the book of the law.
You rightly have emphasized the term "circumcision" or "circumcised" in the book of Galatians but you have placed a wrong interpretation or wrong reason that Paul emphasizes it. He does not emphasize it because it is the ONLY commandment he is talking about. He emphasizes it because it is the DOORWAY to keeping all the commandments in the covenant. A person who is going to be justified under the law covenant at Mount Sinai BEGINS with circumsion but does not end with circumcsion but has committed himself to LIVE HIS LIFE BY COMMANDMENT KEEPING in order to be justified "under the law."
This is exactly what you are teaching and how you are using the scriptures. You are teaching people to reject Jesus Christ's substitutionary satisfaction of the law for justification. You are teaching people that they themselves must obey the law for justification. The only problem is not the law but you! You can't follow the directions as defined by the law and never will. You are condemned now as a sinner, a violater of the Laws directions and you will be so on the day of judgement because YOU are the one trying to satisfy the Law's demands by YOUR own life - thus rejecting God's provision born "under the law" in your behalf! This is the essence, the bottom line message of Paul to the Galatians. They were rejecting God's provision in the life of Jesus Christ in their behalf. They have fallen from the DOCTRINE of justification by grace and embraced the DOCTRINE of justification by works of the law.
You understand that you must keep God's commandments to be justified "under the law." You go the general directions down pat.
However, you do not understand how God defines "keep" and therefore you do not understand the BAD news and there is no GOOD news for you until you grasp what is the BAD news.
As long as you are attempting to "keep" the commandments in order to be justified "under the law" then you have no need of Jesus Christ - This is the bottom line message behind the whole book of Galatians.
Circumcision is merely the door way where one begins "under the law" to attempt to "keep" God's commandments. It is the door way to keeping the commandments of God because this is where a person starts in life to come "under the law". The baby is circumcised at eight days old. The gentile proselyte begins with circumcision - it is the doorway to "the works of the law" as a "covenant" of works.
You want to ignore it but Galatians 3-4 define "the works of the law" as the "covenant" given at MOUNT SINAI and is called "the law."
You want to ignore it, but what was given in the covenant at Mount Sinai was the TEN COMMANDMENTS and therefore the "works of the law" Paul is speaking about includes the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
There is no possible way you can deny this and be truthful and honest with Galatians 3:10-4:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
The "cursed" does not refer merely to those who do not submit to circumcision but "to all things written in the book of the law to do THEM"
This text alone proves that your interpretation of "the works of the law" merely refers to circumcision is wrong.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years AFTER, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was ADDED because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
4:21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
No one can honestly read these scriptures and come to the conclusion that Paul is talking ONLY about circumcision. He is talking about "the covenant" that was given at "Mount Sinai" and all "the works" of that covenant or "all things written in the book of the law" not merely one thing written in the book of the law.
You rightly have emphasized the term "circumcision" or "circumcised" in the book of Galatians but you have placed a wrong interpretation or wrong reason that Paul emphasizes it. He does not emphasize it because it is the ONLY commandment he is talking about. He emphasizes it because it is the DOORWAY to keeping all the commandments in the covenant. A person who is going to be justified under the law covenant at Mount Sinai BEGINS with circumsion but does not end with circumcsion but has committed himself to LIVE HIS LIFE BY COMMANDMENT KEEPING in order to be justified "under the law."
This is exactly what you are teaching and how you are using the scriptures. You are teaching people to reject Jesus Christ's substitutionary satisfaction of the law for justification. You are teaching people that they themselves must obey the law for justification. The only problem is not the law but you! You can't follow the directions as defined by the law and never will. You are condemned now as a sinner, a violater of the Laws directions and you will be so on the day of judgement because YOU are the one trying to satisfy the Law's demands by YOUR own life - thus rejecting God's provision born "under the law" in your behalf! This is the essence, the bottom line message of Paul to the Galatians. They were rejecting God's provision in the life of Jesus Christ in their behalf. They have fallen from the DOCTRINE of justification by grace and embraced the DOCTRINE of justification by works of the law.
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Chowmah,
You understand that you must keep God's commandments to be justified "under the law." You go the general directions down pat.
As long as you are attempting to "keep" the commandments in order to be justified "under the law" then you have no need of Jesus Christ.
For the hundreth time i will say you cannot be justified by observing to keep Gods 10 commandments.
Its just the opposite Doc, i will continue to fall and fail to keep the commandments as i am supposed to. Hense, i need the blood of Christ to forgive those sins. You on the other hand think you cannot sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. You believe there is no law. Hense, you need not the shed blood of Christ to forgive you.
Dr. Walter
New Member
For the hundreth time i will say you cannot be justified by observing to keep Gods 10 commandments.
You can't have it both ways! You cannot deny that your personal observance of the commandments justifies you before God and at the same time deny that one cannot be justified before God without personally observing the commandments.
Neither can you assert that Christ enables you to personally observe the commandments in order to be justified before God. If that were the case, then Christ did not need to even leave heaven as his power can sufficiently enable you to observe God's commandments as easily before the incarnation as after the ascension into heaven.
You are denying the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Its just the opposite Doc, i will continue to fall and fail to keep the commandments as i am supposed to. Hense, i need the blood of Christ to forgive those sins. You on the other hand think you cannot sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. You believe there is no law. Hense, you need not the shed blood of Christ to forgive you.
There are three things you do not understand.
1. The relationship of the sinner to God and to His law has changed. Before he was an "enemy" now he is a "child." As an enemy violation of the law results only in wrath. As a child violation of the law results merely in chastening. Sin by a child does not change his relationship to God as Father and son, it only changes his "fellowship."
2. The purpose of the law is fulfilled in God's children. The purpose is to reveal the knowledge of right versus wrong. The child of God is NEVER without sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10 - not present tense verb). Hence, sin does not damn the child of God or else he would be CONTINUALLY damned along with the enemies of God. The law simply provides childhood EDUCTION and DIRECTION for sinful children of God in their never ending pursuit of righteousness but never attaining of perfection in this life (Philip. 3:10-12). Confession of sin does not resave the child of God from sin. Confession of sin does not resave a "child" relationship from an "enemy" relationship. Confession simply restores "FELLOWSHIP" between Father and child and provides an open door for EXPERIENTIAL blessings of eternal life now and here.
3. The difference between true children of God (not mere professors) and the lost is not sin. The difference is their attitude toward sin due to the new creation of an inward man and the inability to get away with sin due to the inward new nature, indwelling Person of the Holy Spirit and the chastening love of God. All of these things are characteristic of those already justified once and for all by the personal obedience of Jesus Christ in their behalf.
Therefore, there is not a moment that goes by that a child of God is without sin. However, a child of God's testimony of his present state of indwelling sin is "O wretched man that I AM, who shall deliver me from this BODY OF DEATH." The child of God sins more than he wants to (Rom. 7:15-21). Only as a child of God puts on the new man and puts off the old man through faith in Christ can he say, "I thank God through Jesus Christ." Nevertheless, in this present state the child of God continues to sin with the flesh while with the mind delights in the law of God after the inward man (Rom. 7:25). Christian maturity is progressing in walking after the Spirit more than after the flesh but this battle has nothing to do with entance into heaven but to do with present joy, victory, blessings, growth and eventually rewards in heaven. The War has already been won by Christ FOR US but we are fighting many battles and skirmishes that we often lose in this present life of experiencing life and death here and now.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
Hey Doc
Do you like football? Im a closet Jet fan. Ill come out when they get rid of Sanchez and get a new offensive coordinator
Yeah, I am sort of a football fan. I sort of bounce around depending upon individual superstars that I like and want to see succeed.