Total Inability

[Ray Berrian]

Australian Student,

I read your post with interest and liked not only what you said, and noticed that you apparently are immersed in the study of the Word. If you stay in the Word you will not go too far astray theologically.

I liked how you picked out the fact that even an evil parent can give 'good gifts.' Sinners do have an intellect that is not lost even though we are all the sons and daughter of the Fall. Sinner point out when a Christian does not act like he is one.

I believe sinners are depraved by the 'image of God' has not been totally defaced. They have intellect, conscience and an unfettered will if they respond to the convicting and convincing ministry of the Spirit. Yes, sinners are bound in sins but the prayer of faith brakes that awful bondage.

I read Acts ten and thought that I read that Cornelius was ' . . . a devout man and one who feared God' from all that we ever heard about him. And as you said, God heard his prayers also as noted in Acts chapter 10.

I have always been under the impression that God only hears the prayer of repentance and/or faith. [John 9:31] 'Now we know that God heareth not sinners; but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth His will, him He heareth.'

If I may suggest something. Forget Calvins views as well as Arminius and think the thoughts of God by studying your Bible.

A brother in Christ.

Ray

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Australian Baptist Student:
Hi Chappie,
Thanks for your comments. Can I run another idea past you?
Election is a contentious topic, does God only want some saved? Does He want others in hell?

When I look at Scripture, I see God clearly calling special people. Abraham is called, David is chosen rather than his brothers, Paul is lightning bolted, etc.
My question however is, why are they called?
They are all called (elected?) to reach out to others! Abraham, "through you all the nations of the earth will be blessed", David is chosen, not to commune with God on a hilltop, but to be a shepherd to all Israel, Paul is chosen to be an apostle to the Gentiles.
Election is not God's way of abandoning the rest ("I choose you, you and you"), but God's way of reaching the rest.
We are called, yes, we are called to be witnesses.

What do you think?
God bless, Colin

Very interesting.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Australian Baptist Student:Hi Chappie,
Thanks for your comments. Can I run another idea past you? Election is a contentious topic, does God only want some saved? Does He want others in hell?

God did not create any man for the sole purpose of stoking the fires of hell. Men are not privy to the will and intent of an eternal God. All that we have is his word, and thank God that they reveal his nature which is immutable.

Shall we say that the God that we know has the capacity to create beings for the sole purpose of torturing them. Let's say that we today call ourselves the elect of God. If God has demonstrated a propensity for such actions, who's to say that God will never, never; throughout the pages of eternity future decide to burn a few of his elect.

It is against the nature of God to do such a thing. Trust me, those that glory in such an act, do so only believing that they themselves have escaped the judgement of God. Their comfort and ability to glorify God rests solely on that most fatal of human thought, bad things always happen to the other guy....

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Just as the Jews that depended on their Abrahamic ancestery for salvation found out differently, many that think that they are the elect of God will find themselves in the same quandry.

When I look at Scripture, I see God clearly calling special people. Abraham is called, David is chosen rather than his brothers, Paul is lightning bolted, etc.

My question however is, why are they called?
They are all called (elected?) to reach out to others! Abraham, "through you all the nations of the earth will be blessed", David is chosen, not to commune with God on a hilltop, but to be a shepherd to all Israel, Paul is chosen to be an apostle to the Gentiles.

Election is not God's way of abandoning the rest ("I choose you, you and you"), but God's way of reaching the rest.
We are called, yes, we are called to be witnesses.

What do you think?
God bless, Colin

You have an insightful and healthy understanding of scripture. Your thoughts Glorify God. Any attempt to glorify God that is not founded in love is not appropriate to God... GOD IS LOVE..

[ November 06, 2002, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
God did not create any man for the sole purpose of stoking the fires of hell.

Amen, Chappie. You agree with Calvinism on that point.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
God did not create any man for the sole purpose of stoking the fires of hell.

Amen, Chappie. You agree with Calvinism on that point.

Ken
A Spurgeonite </font>[/QUOTE]El gusto es mio.
muchas gracias mi' amigo
ah sus ordines...

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Chappie:
El gusto es mio.
muchas gracias mi' amigo
ah sus ordines...

If I understand your question, the answer is only once, and I was forced to do it by circus midgets.

Now I have some questions for you:
Qui a coupe le fromage?
Ix-nay on the oreign-fay anguages-lay?

Hasty banana.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
El gusto es mio.
muchas gracias mi' amigo
ah sus ordines...

If I understand your question, the answer is only once, and I was forced to do it by circus midgets.

Now I have some questions for you:
Qui a coupe le fromage?
Ix-nay on the oreign-fay anguages-lay?

Hasty banana.</font>[/QUOTE]

Ok, Ok, I'll knock off the foolishness..

 

[BobRyan]

npetreley
BobRyan: So according to you, we start each of our lives slaves to sin. At some point, God gives us the gift of free will and offers us the choice of salvation. We then use our free will to either accept or decline on the offer of salvation.

That is almost it. My statement is that mankind "apart from God's drawing" is "unnable" to comply - unnable to choose.

BUT GOD never claims to have "LEFT MAN APART From His Drawing".

We live IN The context of BOTH the sinful nature AND the ever-present DRAWING of God - who DRAWS all mankind to himself - Who CONVICTS the WORLD of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment.

Although you say you have never found this in scripture I would recommend John chapter 12 and chapter 16 for a start.

npetreley
Pardon me if I get the next part wrong, since I've never encountered this idea in the Bible and the whole concept is brand new to me.

It would seem to me that a split second after we make this "free-will choice" we would lose our free will again. Why? Paul says in Romans that we were once slaves to sin, but now we are slaves to righteousness.

Again - your error is in trying to dice god-out.

IT is not possible. SINCE God was enabling your free will - as you CHOSE sin and were by that CHOICE enslaved to sin, EVEN SO God's enabling your free will ALSO allows you to CHOOSE life and the New Birth then ENAbLES obedience "CREATED for God Works that God determined we should walk IN them".

But in that ENABLING - there is Constant CHOICE such that "I BUFFET My body and MAKE it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to OTHERS I MYSELF should be DISQUALFIED" 1Cor 9 - end of chapter.

Npetreley

Another reason I'd have to assume we lost our free will again after making the decision is that, if we still had free will, we'd be able to apply that permanently acquired free will to do things like follow the law, or (if we chose salvation) to get "saved" or "unsaved" again anytime we like.

You must be thinking of Matt 18's scenario of "Forgiveness Revoked" or are you seeing it in Ezekiel 18, or is it Hebrews 6 or is it Galations 5 and "Falling from Grace" or are you simply refering to the "Lest I should be disqualfied" statement in 1 Cor 9 above.

I am not sure which you are referencing - but if you are supposing that the Arminian POV requires arguing against those positions - you are missing the Arminian point. Nothing about the Arminian view requires digressing from the full and apparent statements of those scriptures. Free will even IN Salvation.

In fact that Free Will view of the Arminian POV - sorta requires acceptance of those texts without reservation.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Australian Baptist Student:Hi Chappie,
Thanks for your comments. Can I run another idea past you? Election is a contentious topic, does God only want some saved? Does He want others in hell?

Not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance (2Peter 3)

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Australian Baptist Student:
does God only want some saved? Does He want others in hell?

God did not create man to end up in hell. God does want to save those whom He gave to His Son, Jesus Christ, before the foundation of the world. Anyone who ends up being damned will be in hell because of his sin and then his failure to repent and believe the gospel.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Ray Berrian]

If God ordained the elect for Heaven, He was no less involved in sending the rest to Hell. By saying that sinners go to Hell because of their sins is a cop out. The Calvinist real honest answer is not found in the sentence before this one. Their honest answer is in the first sentence. Like I said before, no born in the 'image of God' human would believe the first sentence but might be lured into accepting the second one.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If God ordained the elect for Heaven, He was no less involved in sending the rest to Hell.

Ray,

I'm not totally sure, but I think I disagree with you as I think you are saying if one believes in the Biblical doctrine of election, then he must be a double predestinationist. But I'm not sure that is what you said.

However, ultimately God is the One who places all people in heaven or hell based on the parameters He has established.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

I agree with your most recent post. It sure feels good to be agreeing with you.

A brother,

Ray

 

[KenH]

That's good, Ray.

I am in an agreeable mood today - the Arkansas Razorbacks won and I am going to eat pizza in a little while and I am taking one of my dogs to agility practice tomorrow about 80 miles from here.

May God's blessings be on His people.

Ken
A Spurgeonite