Tradition or Scripture

[agedman]

Baptists are noted for placing the pulpit between the alter table and the baptistery.
Is that tradition or is there Scripture support?

Baptists are also noted for the alter call/invitation prior to the concluding prayer.
Is that tradition or is there Scripture support?

What other items might Baptists regularly engage that may be tradition or may have a Scriptural base?

 

[Just_Ahead]

Interesting questions. I am looking forward to the posted comments.

 

[Guvnuh]

Well, not reading much on the subject, I’ll say it’s tradition when placing the pulpit between the baptistery and Supper table.
I’ll say it’s tradition for the pulpit to receive a special “recognition “ or “reverential” treatment since it’s the place Gods Word is to be proclaimed and the Gospel clearly taught.

i understand the Reformers giving the pulpit special recognition as wanting to distance themselves from much of the ceremonial liturgical practices of the English church and the Catholic Church.

 

[Guvnuh]

Our baptistery messes up quite often. Leaks etc.
So we often bring in a large feed trough, fill it with water and baptize there.
One chose to be baptized in a stock pond. So it was.
Indoor baptistery would be a tradition. A luxury but a tradition.

 

[Alcott]

Baptist tradition says that alcohol must be abstained from- a position scripture does not require.
Baptist tradition says 'no dancing.' That is not found in scripture, and the last Psalm clearly says to dance and use many musical instruments. Traditionalists, of course, like to point out that that dancing is in praise to the God of the heavens. But what do they say when it is suggested that their church start praise dancing?

A long time ago now, I joined this singles' club in which members could browse profiles and request contact information for someone they think they want to meet. I remember calling one woman and telling her that I am a Baptist, and she said she attends a Bible Church. She added, "I'd say we're a lot like Baptists-- except we don't go around telling people never to drink beer or go dancing." I wonder how much that perception has changed by now, after about 35 years.

 

[37818]

. . . the alter table . . .

LOL.

 

[JonC]

Tradition. The placement of the pulpit symbolizes the focus on God's Word (Presbyterians place it to the side to diminish the importance of the man in the pulpit). The table is there for the same reason (I think in front of the pulpit for utilitarian reasons). From what I understand the placement of the baptistry is utilitarian.

 

[just-want-peace]

Tradition. The placement of the pulpit symbolizes the focus on Hod's Word (Presbyterians place it to the side to diminish the importance of the man in the pulpit). ------

Interesting!!! I remember watching (James Kennedy??) on TV, & he was elevated above the congregation and off to the left . I always wondered why this configuration!!

 

[Marooncat79]

As someone else said, it was elevated to show the preeminence of preaching the Word of God

 

[agedman]

How about the typical Baptist order of service? How much is tradition and how much is Serpture precedents?

 

[canadyjd]

Baptists are noted for placing the pulpit between the alter table and the baptistery.
Is that tradition or is there Scripture support?

Baptists are also noted for the alter call/invitation prior to the concluding prayer.
Is that tradition or is there Scripture support?

What other items might Baptists regularly engage that may be tradition or may have a Scriptural base?

If I remember my history correctly, the Christian church modeled the houses of worship (when not meeting in home churches) after the Jewish synagogues. A rectangular room, no seating or crude benches, special seating near the front for important guests, raised platform and podium where a presiding official would read from the Law, the Wisdom, and the prophets. Some would give a “sermon” explaining practical applications to the scripture. Learned men would be invited to share. All interspersed with prayer, singing playing instruments in worship.

The baptismal (yes, the Jews had baptismal) were outside and could be walked into on one side and exited in the other. Mostly Gentiles were given the full dunk, since they needed the most cleaning up.

So, in short, the New Testament church building and liturgy were copied from Jewish synagogues. Which makes perfect sense; most of the very early Christians were Jews or had direct ties to Judaism (were God-fearers).

Edit to add: The Apostle Paul gave wide latitude to polity and liturgy; basically saying to do everything in an orderly manner and to the praise of Christ Jesus. He mentions encouraging one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, but beyond those instructions he intended for us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

Baptists are noted for placing the pulpit between the alter table and the baptistery.
Is that tradition or is there Scripture support?

Tradition, as the early churches, especially the Gentile ones, met in homes.
They baptized in rivers, lakes and streams, and their altar is and was spiritual ( Hebrews 13:10 ).

Baptists are also noted for the alter call/invitation prior to the concluding prayer.
Is that tradition or is there Scripture support?

Tradition, as before roughly 1800, I don't see that practice being observed much prior to Charles Finney.
I see no support for it in Scripture.

 

[Dave G]

What other items might Baptists regularly engage that may be tradition or may have a Scriptural base?

A whole list of things traditional, most of which many would disagree with...
but that many have also grown so accustomed to, that they would think it not Biblical to do them:

1) Dressing up to go assemble with one's brothers and sisters.

2) A system of hierarchy ( Doctrine of the Nicolaitanes ) in which there is a "lead pastor", "associate pastor" and so forth ( I'm not talking about the Biblical offices of humble servitude seen in the Bible ), and that authority resides in those offices that can be used to oppress or otherwise coerce their brothers and sisters. As I see it, the Roman Catholic practices / offices of "Bishop", "Archbisop, "Priest" "Cardinal" and so forth ( all the way to "Pope" ) originated with this system of thought.

3) "Tithing", in which elements of Old Testament Law are brought in to collect money for whatever are deemed to be the things of God, instead of relying on the Spirit to guide and provide such things through His people and through prayer.

4) A church building with all the comforts of home, which is supported by money that would be better-spent meeting the earthly needs of God's saints.

5) "Bible Colleges" and "seminaries" where theology is taught, and brothers and sisters actually pay someone to exercise what are, in effect, their spiritual gifts to teach them the Scriptures and "how to understand them" a certain way.
We as believers have the Holy Spirit for that ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ), and God's teachers and preachers should be teaching and preaching His words, and for no pay.
"Missionaries" ( what the Bible calls "evangelists" in Ephesians 4 ) are the only ones that I see as partaking of living off the preaching of the Gospel.

6) A carefully choreographed "service" that begins with songs, has a music "special", and ends with usually topical preaching that really doesn't allow for the Spirit of God to work, spontaneously, as He should.

7) Many more smaller items.

 

[Dave G]

Practices with a Scriptural, if not outright, commandment:

Encouraging one another through trials and tribulations and as we see the day approaching ( Romans 12, Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:24-25 ),
Living holy lives ( Romans 12, Colossians 3 ).
Baptism by immersion ( Acts of the Apostles 2:37-38, Acts of the Apostles 8:36-38 ) to identify with our Saviour.
The "Lord's Supper" ( 1 Corinthians 11:23-34 ).

 

[Dave G]

How about the typical Baptist order of service? How much is tradition and how much is Serpture precedents?

Based on my experience and what I've seen in the Bible, very little of Baptist "order of service" is Scriptural...
as an "order of service" is not established there.

 

[Salty]

Based on my experience and what I've seen in the Bible, very little of Baptist "order of service" is Scriptural...
as an "order of service" is not established there.

But on the other hand it is not Anti-Scriptural.

The First Baptist Church of Syracuse (an ABC) church - their baptistery is at the back of the church - the symbolism is that you need to be baptized to enter (join) the church.

They also have a Labyrinth!
Labyrinth – First Baptist Church of Syracuse

 

[Dave G]

But on the other hand it is not Anti-Scriptural.

Salty, just because we as believers cannot find anything against some traditions, does that mean that we should "load up" on them, and completely overwhelm our assemblies with them?

I think that does more damage than leaving things simple and sacred.
It puts more "distance" between who we are and Who it's all about.

The First Baptist Church of Syracuse (an ABC) church - their baptistery is at the back of the church - the symbolism is that you need to be baptized to enter (join) the church.

They also have a Labyrinth!
Labyrinth – First Baptist Church of Syracuse

I believe you've made my point.

Shouldn't we ask ourselves "is this Scriptural and does it speak to the spirit of our relationship with Him?",
rather than asking ourselves " Is there anything in the Bible that forbids this?"

To me, it's "spirit" versus "letter".
Why over-complicate what the Lord made so simple, in the beginning?

 

[Salty]

Why over-complicate what the Lord has made simple?

Then we would probably end up being like the Amish.

Dave, Let me ask you why your are on Baptist Board?
Where in Scripture does it show that participating on BB is Scriptural?

 

[Dave G]

Then we would probably end up being like the Amish.

IMO, that's not a bad idea, Salty.
Although I don't advocate abandoning modern technology, just most of the extra-biblical traditions and extravagances that have built up in the churches for centuries.

Dave, Let me ask you why your are on Baptist Board?

Because I believe that the Lord has, for some strange reason, led me to be here;
and because every time I think that I'm done posting here, I feel prompted to come back and post.

As long as you guys don't throw me out, I'll stick around a bit longer, if that's OK.

Where in Scripture does it show that participating on BB is Scriptural?

Jude 1:3 and other places.
1 Peter 3:15 comes to mind, as do parts of Romans 12 and Colossians 3.

Yes, I know that you're probably looking for the answer to "where in Scripture does it tells us to ( or does it forbid us to )..." in the literal sense.
But the truth is, that in many places it doesn't; and there are liberties that we've been given as members of the body of Christ.

I'm also not against traditions...
I'm against those traditions getting in the way of our relationships with each other as believers and with our Saviour, not to mention the waste of money that could be used for more important and edifying things:
Like feeding and clothing the poor and meeting the needs of those believers who have them.


In the end, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Salty]

I
Jude 1:3 and other places.
1 Peter 3:15 comes to mind, as do parts of Romans 12 and Colossians 3..

Sure we should - but that while we are talking in person - says nothing about BB or other media.

I
Yes, I know that you're probably looking for the answer to "where in Scripture does it tells us to ( or does it forbid us to )..." in the literal sense.
But the truth is, that in many places it doesn't; and there are liberties that we've been given as members of the body of Christ.

I'm also not against traditions...
I'm against those traditions getting in the way of our relationships with each other as believers and with our Saviour, not to mention the waste of money that could be used for more important and edifying things:.

So some Traditions are okay? but who determines which ones are okay.
sounds like you are advocating that we should not have church buildings - and just meet in homes. and use the rent money for missions.....

Like feeding and clothing the poor and meeting the needs of those believers who have them..

that is a whole different story there.
Remember, Jesus said we will always have the poor.....

In the end, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Thats hard to do, as I'm not sure when I agree or disagree with you!