Trinity

[Jedi Knight]

Greetings steaver,


Could you tell me when the word “Trinity” was first used? I understand that the word did not appear until the 3rd Century or even later.

Kind regards
Trevor

I can tell you were the trinity is first seen. Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Jedi Knight and Greetings again steaver,

I can tell you were the trinity is first seen. Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness

In earlier post(s) I tried to explain that the plural in Genesis 1:26 includes God the Father and the Angels. Some Trinitarians accept this.

I also believe that the Scriptures state that this majority would gain the ascendancy over the minority for a given period of time.

Please provide a scripture reference for this belief.

Daniel 7:21, but there are others. Salvation is by belief of the gospel and this is followed by baptism Romans 1:16-17, Acts 8:5,12.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yeshua1]

Greetings Jedi Knight and Greetings again steaver,
In earlier post(s) I tried to explain that the plural in Genesis 1:26 includes God the Father and the Angels. Some Trinitarians accept this.



Daniel 7:21, but there are others. Salvation is by belief of the gospel and this is followed by baptism Romans 1:16-17, Acts 8:5,12.

Kind regards
Trevor

If Jesus is not God, you have a wrong jesus, false gospel, cannot be saved!

 

[steaver]

Greetings Jedi Knight and Greetings again steaver,
In earlier post(s) I tried to explain that the plural in Genesis 1:26 includes God the Father and the Angels. Some Trinitarians accept this.



Daniel 7:21, but there are others. Salvation is by belief of the gospel and this is followed by baptism Romans 1:16-17, Acts 8:5,12.

Kind regards
Trevor

When you get the time Trevor, please answer the other questions in my last post so we can be clear as to whom we are speaking of when you say "majority".

It is important so that I may understand your position and how you apply passages of scripture, and to whom.

Thank you!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

When you get the time Trevor, please answer the other questions in my last post so we can be clear as to whom we are speaking of when you say "majority".

It is important so that I may understand your position and how you apply passages of scripture, and to whom.

Daniel 7 speaks of the development of a religious system that would persecute “the saints” Daniel 7:21. I consider the little horn of the 4th beast to be the RCC and the saints to be the faithful from the time of the appearance of this little horn. I will let you estimate when the RCC started to persecute those who did not conform to all their doctrines, including their espousal of the Trinity. By the way I am not an Arian in belief, as I do not hold to the pre-existence of Jesus.

The following is a brief summary and index of my involvement in some of the Posts. In these I have attempted to establish that the Scriptures reveal that there is One God, the Father, and that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. By contrast the popular doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Scriptures of truth.

P1#8: John 17:3 There is One God the Father, John 20:28 cf John 10:30-36 Explanation of why Jesus is called God
P2#13: Response concerning John 10:30-36; P2#14: Psalm 8:4-6, 80:17, Luke 1:30-35, 2:40,52 Explanation of the origins of Jesus, his birth and development
P3#21: 1 Cor 8:6 There is One God the Father; Luke 1:35, John 1:14, 1 Tim 2:5, Psalm 110:1 Jesus is the Son of God by birth, by moral character and present status in glory after the resurrection; Luke 1:35 The Holy Spirit is God’s power that proceeds from Him.
P3#21: John 17:11,21 explain the meaning of the unity expressed in John 10:30
P4#36: Isa 50:4-5, Phil 2:8-11 Further explanation of the origins of Jesus, his birth and development
P4#37: Initial response to John 8:58 “I am”, by looking at Exodus 3:14-15, 12, 6:1-8, 15:1-3 and suggesting “I will be” is the preferred translation in these OT passages
P4#40: Additional response concerning John 10:30-36; 1 Cor 15:25-28 Christ’s future subjection to the Father; The role of the judges who were called Gods or Elohim Exodus 21:6, 22:8-9, Deut 1:17, 2 Chron 19:6
P5#41: Further explanation of the future rendition of the Yahweh name “I will be” showing the fulfillment in Jesus Exod 15:2, Numb 14:21, Psalm 118:14-25, Matt 1:20-21.
P5#44: Response to Evidence 4: Isa 9:6, and Evidence 2: John 1:1 using Gen 1:3, Psalm 8:1-6, Matt 11:25-27
P5#45: Explanation of the plural of Gen 1:26-27 using Psalm 8:4-6
P5#49: Acts 8:5,12, Rom 6:1-8 used to explain “born of water”
P6#51: Further Scriptures teaching that there is One God the Father and that Jesus is the Son of God: Deut 6:4, Mark 12:28-30, Acts 2:22,36, Mark 13:32, Rev 1:1, 1 Cor 15:25-27, Matt 11:25-27, 28:18, John 3:34-35; Further Scriptures illustrating the OT usage of the word “God” (Elohim): Gen 17:1,22, Exod 3:2-6, Psalm 8:5, Heb 2:5-7
P6#55: Additional response concerning Evidence 4: Isa 9:6, and Evidence 2: John 1:1 using Josh 5:13-15, Heb 2:13, Isa 55:10-11
P7#64: Additional response concerning Evidence 4: Isa 9:6, and Evidence 2: John 1:1
P7#69: Response to Evidence 1: Col 1:13 using reference material (not my own work)
P8#71: Explanation of the Spirit of Christ using Eph 3:14-21
P8#75: Consideration of Heb 1:2 using Heb 2:9 and Psalm 8
P9#83: Jesus the Son of God 2 Sam 7:12-16, Luke 1:35; An attempt to set a context for Isa9:6 to show that “Mighty God” means mighty warrior or champion.
P10#91: A comment on John 1:14
P10#97: Brief response to plurality in Gen 1:2,26-27, 3:22, 11:7, 1 Sam 4:8, Isa 6:8,3
P11#104: Response concerning 1 John 5:7-8 (KJV).
P11#105: Explanation of “Christ in you” using Gal 1:15-16 and extract on Paul’s transformation.
P11#108: Further response concerning 1 John 5:7-8 (KJV).
P11#109: Brief response to made in image of angels using Gen 1:26-27, Psalm 8, Heb 2
P12#111: Further response concerning 1 John 5:7-8 (KJV).
P12#112: Explanation of “Christ in you” and “born again” using Gal 2:20, 3:1, Phil 3:8-14, Eph 4:22-24, 4:28.
P12#119: Further explanation of the plurality in Gen 1:26-27 using Psalm 8:5,1, Heb 2:7,9
P13#126: God the Father is the only true God John 17:1-3; The title “The Son of God” is greater than the title “God” when applied to Jesus John 20:28-31.
P13#128: Jesus was human nature not Divine nature before his exaltation Heb 2:14, 1 John 4:1-3
P14#133, 137, 140: The “Sprit” within: direct or through the absorption of the Word of God?
P15#142: Quotation of a summary concerning the Bible teaching on God the Father, rather than the Trinity
P15#148: John 8:58 – A consideration of the “I am” passages of John’s gospel
P16#151: Response concerning John 8:58; comment on Dan 7:21; citation of Isaac Newton’s belief.
P16#152, 157: Jewish resistance to doctrine of the Trinity
P18#171: The spirit of Christ Heb 4:12-13, 1 Peter 1:10-12
P18#173: History of the development of the belief in the Trinity – citations from book

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

As far as numbers are concerned I often think upon the example of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham was told to behold the stars of the heaven for multitude, and then told that his seed would be as many. But if you compare his personal circumstances he had no child. In the southern hemisphere we evidently have a better picture of the milky way and it is humbling to view late at night or early morning the multitude of stars and the southern cross and it reminds me that God’s purpose is on track and will be fulfilled.

Last Thursday I received Sir Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting’s book “The Doctrine of the Trinity – Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound”. I have read the Foreword and the Introduction and was quite impressed and could not fault his conclusions and the intended scope of the book. He is clear on the idea that Greek philosophy replaced the Hebrew OT concept of the One God. The book deals with the passages that are used to support The Trinity as well as passages that teach the One God of the Bible. The writers do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus. It will take me a fairly long time to read the book as I received a number of other interesting books in the parcel. As I read the Introduction I felt that he echoed much of what I have presented, but he has explained these things in a very clear way. I felt time and again that I should quote parts of this Introduction, but I will let you find a copy if you like. Both the writers were originally Trinitarians. Also the writer of the Foreword received his M Div from a Baptist Seminary.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver, Daniel 7 speaks of the development of a religious system that would persecute “the saints” Daniel 7:21. I consider the little horn of the 4th beast to be the RCC and the saints to be the faithful from the time of the appearance of this little horn. I will let you estimate when the RCC started to persecute those who did not conform to all their doctrines, including their espousal of the Trinity.


Kind regards
Trevor

Can you give me scripture that confirms to you this little horn is the RCC? Or is this just an opinion?

By the way I am not an Arian in belief, as I do not hold to the pre-existence of Jesus.

"The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by—and is therefore distinct from—God the Father."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Can you give me scripture that confirms to you this little horn is the RCC? Or is this just an opinion?



"The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by—and is therefore distinct from—God the Father."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

There is a distinction between Arianism and Socinianism, as the former does believe in the pre-existence of Christ, whereas the latter does not.

 

[steaver]

There is a distinction between Arianism and Socinianism, as the former does believe in the pre-existence of Christ, whereas the latter does not.

Not following, are you saying Wikipedia's definition is wrong?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Not following, are you saying Wikipedia's definition is wrong?

I am saying that Arianism believes Christ was a created being but believes in His pre-existence, whereas Socinianism does not believe in Christ's pre-existence.

 

[steaver]

I am saying that Arianism believes Christ was a created being but believes in His pre-existence, whereas Socinianism does not believe in Christ's pre-existence.

Oh, ok, I understand now, I missed that part. So Arianism believes like the Mormons on this matter.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Oh, ok, I understand now, I missed that part. So Arianism believes like the Mormons on this matter.

Well, not quite. Mormonism is different from most anything else. An excellent analysis of Mormonism is available by F.E. Mayer in the book, The Religious Bodies of America. The last edition of this book was published in 1968, I believe, so some of the material is outdated, but the theological bases of the various denominations are relevant and accurate.

Mormonism is, how can I put it kindly....confused and confusing regarding God and Jesus. In one view, Christ is the literal offspring, the spiritual child of Elohim. Mormonism is neither Trinitarian, not Arian, nor Socinian, but rather polytheistic. Many do not realize this.

 

[Eliyahu]

Let me bring Zech 2:8-9, 11 to your attention.

8 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me.

11 And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee.


LORD of Hosts said " He sent me..."

Who is He who sent Jehovah of Hosts? Who can dispatch the Almighty God to the nations?

Who is Me?

What is Glory? what is the meaning of After Glory?


You must find < Sending Jehovah> and < Sent Jehovah>, then Glory is mentioned in John 7:39.

John Nelson Darby said:

To me, it is as clear as the Sun at noonday that Jesus Christ is Jehovah in Old Testament.

To me, too.

Jehovah in OT was sometimes referred to Triune God, sometimes to Preincarnate Christ. Don't misunderstand this as Modalism.

 

[steaver]

Well, not quite. Mormonism is different from most anything else. An excellent analysis of Mormonism is available by F.E. Mayer in the book, The Religious Bodies of America. The last edition of this book was published in 1968, I believe, so some of the material is outdated, but the theological bases of the various denominations are relevant and accurate.

Mormonism is, how can I put it kindly....confused and confusing regarding God and Jesus. In one view, Christ is the literal offspring, the spiritual child of Elohim. Mormonism is neither Trinitarian, not Arian, nor Socinian, but rather polytheistic. Many do not realize this.

Well, yes, I realize the distinction. I was comparing only to the created being part, not the how, lol. God speed!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

Daniel 7 speaks of the development of a religious system that would persecute “the saints” Daniel 7:21. I consider the little horn of the 4th beast to be the RCC and the saints to be the faithful from the time of the appearance of this little horn. I will let you estimate when the RCC started to persecute those who did not conform to all their doctrines, including their espousal of the Trinity.

Can you give me scripture that confirms to you this little horn is the RCC? Or is this just an opinion?

It would take a reasonable amount of time to develop, but I would be interested in your view of Daniel 2. There is one image presented and four major metals depicted. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he was the head of gold, and that an inferior kingdom would follow. Daniel 8 presents us with the kingdom that replaced Babylon – the Medo-Persians, and also the kingdom that replaced Medo-Persia – the Greeks. The fourth metal is not named but I believe it to be the Roman kingdom. The toes and feet are iron mixed with miry clay, and this speaks of the decline of the power and unity of the Roman Empire, but in some way it is Roman. The latter end of this Roman kingdom will be in the character of ten kings, and in this era the little stone will smite the image on the feet and establish the kingdom of God.

The four beasts of Daniel depict the same four kingdoms, but from a different perspective and elaborate more detail concerning this fourth kingdom, that is the Roman kingdom. If we are agreed up to here I could add more specific detail on the little horn, but if you disagree with the above then we do not have much common ground to discuss the little horn.

"The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by—and is therefore distinct from—God the Father."

I am saying that Arianism believes Christ was a created being but believes in His pre-existence, whereas Socinianism does not believe in Christ's pre-existence.

I do not know what Socianism is, but there is a big difference in trying to incarnate a Divine being into human form and still maintaining that somehow the Divine being is present and a fully human being is also present. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God by birth, not that God the Son became a human, or incarnated Himself. Jesus was fully human. The Word became flesh, not the Word incarnated itself or himself inside a fleshly body, or some other similar concept in my estimation to try to make sense of an impossibility.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver,




I do not know what Socianism is, but there is a big difference in trying to incarnate a Divine being into human form and still maintaining that somehow the Divine being is present and a fully human being is also present. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God by birth, not that God the Son became a human, or incarnated Himself. Jesus was fully human. The Word became flesh, not the Word incarnated itself or himself inside a fleshly body, or some other similar concept in my estimation to try to make sense of an impossibility.

Kind regards
Trevor

Herein lies your error, you are deciding what is and is not possible with God. Please explain for us why it is impossible for God to create for himself a human body and then fully possess this body, even from conception.

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver,


It would take a reasonable amount of time to develop, but I would be interested in your view of Daniel 2. There is one image presented and four major metals depicted. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he was the head of gold, and that an inferior kingdom would follow. Daniel 8 presents us with the kingdom that replaced Babylon – the Medo-Persians, and also the kingdom that replaced Medo-Persia – the Greeks. The fourth metal is not named but I believe it to be the Roman kingdom. The toes and feet are iron mixed with miry clay, and this speaks of the decline of the power and unity of the Roman Empire, but in some way it is Roman. The latter end of this Roman kingdom will be in the character of ten kings, and in this era the little stone will smite the image on the feet and establish the kingdom of God.

The four beasts of Daniel depict the same four kingdoms, but from a different perspective and elaborate more detail concerning this fourth kingdom, that is the Roman kingdom. If we are agreed up to here I could add more specific detail on the little horn, but if you disagree with the above then we do not have much common ground to discuss the little horn.



Kind regards
Trevor

As much as we are told, I can agree. Continue on....

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver ,

Herein lies your error, you are deciding what is and is not possible with God. Please explain for us why it is impossible for God to create for himself a human body and then fully possess this body, even from conception.

I will let you decide on this, but a God is different to a human, and so is Divine Nature and human nature. We could list say ten items of Divine Nature and compare these qualities with human nature.

As much as we are told, I can agree. Continue on....

Again I will let you decide what is correct. The Papacy was given jurisdiction over three territories, known as the Papal States and the Popes used to wear a triple tiered crown symbolising temporal power over these three dominions. Also below I have added some other verses indicating that the falling away is not future as you suggest, but started to develop in the times of the Apostles.
Daniel 7:8 (KJV): I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Daniel 7:20-21 (KJV): 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Daniel 7:24-25 (KJV): 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Acts 20:29-32 (KJV): 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 (KJV): 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
1 John 2:18-19 (KJV): 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 4:1-3 (KJV): 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver , I will let you decide on this, but a God is different to a human, and so is Divine Nature and human nature. We could list say ten items of Divine Nature and compare these qualities with human nature.



Kind regards
Trevor

And you, being human, are going to instruct the human race as to what a God can and cannot do? Do you see your folly?

I will respond to the RCC later when I have more time.

 

[steaver]

Again I will let you decide what is correct. The Papacy was given jurisdiction over three territories, known as the Papal States and the Popes used to wear a triple tiered crown symbolising temporal power over these three dominions.

Ok, should I assume that they still do? And is this relevant to your formulation that will show the RCC is the "little horn"?

Also below I have added some other verses indicating that the falling away is not future as you suggest, but started to develop in the times of the Apostles.

It was not my suggestion. Paul wrote, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" (2Thess2:3) Are you suggesting Paul didn't know it was already happening?

Acts 20:29-32 (KJV): 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

This says nothing of the church falling away. It is about false teachers creeping in unawares. They are of a minority who do not hold to sound doctrines once handed down by the Apostles.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 (KJV): 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Again, nothing to do with the falling away of the church. These are antichrist, they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. The church has received the love of the truth. The church is made up of those who love Jesus Christ and know the Truth. Those who have not received the love of the truth will be given a strong delusion to believe the lie of the Antichrist at his appearing during the great Tribulation.

1 John 2:18-19 (KJV): 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Again, not speaking about the church. Antichrist are not children of God, never were. They tagged along among the church, but the fact that they did not continue made manifest that they were not all of the church.

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV): 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Again, nothing here about the falling away of the church. This is about the spirit of antichrist. The church (born-again Christians) confesses Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.