Trinity

[TrevorL]

Greetings Eliyahu,

I have not completely unraveled your Post but a few comments. You mention John 7:39 and this can be compared with Acts 2:32 where after Jesus’ death and resurrection he was exalted and glorified and sent forth the Holy Spirit which was given to him by the Father..
John 7:39 (KJV): But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts 2:32-36 (KJV): 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Jesus has been made both Lord and Christ and is seated at the right hand of God. There is no hint that this is the Trinity, but exactly the opposite. Jesus is now Lord and Christ, he is the Son of God.

John Nelson Darby said:
To me, it is as clear as the Sun at noonday that Jesus Christ is Jehovah in Old Testament.
To me, too.
Jehovah in OT was sometimes referred to Triune God, sometimes to Preincarnate Christ. Don't misunderstand this as Modalism.

You claim Jesus is the Jehovah of the OT. I believe that the One God, the Father is the Yahweh of the OT. There are passages where angels act on Yahweh’s behalf and bear the name Yahweh. You may care to consider Genesis 17:1,22; 18:1-3,9-10,13-14,22; 19:24; Exodus 23:20-21; Zechariah 3:2 compared with Jude 9. There are many Messianic prophecies where the Messiah will also represent Yahweh and act on His behalf. Perhaps you may like to consider Philippians 2:9-11 with Isaiah 45:22-23.

I notice your reference to Darby and I checked in my Darby Bible that Jehovah is extensively used. Is “Jehovah” your preferred usage, or is this common amongst your community? Have you read the introduction in Rotherham’s Bible as to why he does not use “Jehovah”?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

Ok, should I assume that they still do? And is this relevant to your formulation that will show the RCC is the "little horn"?

No, the papacy lost its temporal power in 1870. They also lost their power to persecute primarily as a result of the French Revolution. Concerning the rest of your answers, I agree the true church or “ecclesia” not a building or Church but those called out of the Jewish and Gentile world were faithful.

I thought you might have a further comment on numbers and also respond to my comments on Abraham and the stars. I heard an interview on the radio with the Chief Astronomer from the Sydney NSW Observatory. He was appointed to the job not so much for his knowledge of Astronomy, but because of his scientific qualifications in general. He was from London and had not particularly noticed the stars in London, and similarly when he first arrived in Sydney, both being large cities with much night lighting. Shortly after his arrival he was taken to the Coonabarabran Observatory in the Warrumbungles in the North of NSW. When he arrived at the Observatory, he commented that there would not be much observation that night as there was too much cloud. He was informed: “That is not cloud; that is the Milky Way”.

I believe Psalm 8 is one of the greatest Psalms of praise, next to Psalm 145 which is an excellent Psalm of Praise. David composed Psalm 8 after he had defeated the champion Goliath. This conquest over the man of sin was in effect the start of the Kingdom of God with David as King, a shepherd king who would care for and sustain God’s people, a man after God’s own heart. As a shepherd he would have often considered the stars at night, and be reminded of God’s covenant with Abraham in all its details as well as the promise of the seed and Abraham’s response in faith. He considered the stars and his mind went on to concentrate on the Son of Man through whom God would subdue the whole earth, and reign over mankind and the creation. This Son of Man would be the new Mighty God Isaiah 9:6, the mighty champion to subdue sin in all its causes and effects. Paradoxically the subtitle can be translated “Upon the death of the Son” and to us, after the event, we know how this was outworked in Christ’s conquest of sin and death.
Psalm 8:1-9 (KJV): A Psalm of David.
1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
To the chief Musician upon Muthlabben,

So steaver, whatever you decide about numbers from the times of the Apostles to the present time, a majority or a minority, God’s Kingdom will be established and the ultimate purpose of God to fill this earth with His Glory will be fulfilled.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

David went through great trials, and the early victory over Goliath did not immediately usher in a reign of peace like Solomon’s kingdom. He was an exile persecuted by Saul, and then after his kingdom was established he had many personal trials and failures, and later even the rebellion of his own son Absolom. At the end of his life, with his kingdom established and Solomon about to reign, his mind and affections were not centred on the glory of his achievements, or on the impending glorious reign of Solomon, but on the kingdom yet future, when the greater Son of David would rule over the earth as depicted in Psalm 8. His thoughts are revealed in his “last words”:
2 Samuel 23:1-7 (KJV): 1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, 2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. 3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. 4 And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain. 5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow. 6 But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands: 7 But the man that shall touch them must be fenced with iron and the staff of a spear; and they shall be utterly burned with fire in the same place.

As far as numbers are concerned, I believe the greatest part of the Divine harvest will occur during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the throne of David in Jerusalem:
Isaiah 2:1-5 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Thie last verse was an appeal to natural Israel, but could also be considered a universal appeal to all those who would be spiritual Israel. Jesus after speaking of his impending crucifixion and death, echoes Isaiah 2:5 when he says:
John 12:32-33,35-36 (KJV): 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver,

No, the papacy lost its temporal power in 1870. They also lost their power to persecute primarily as a result of the French Revolution. Concerning the rest of your answers, I agree the true church or “ecclesia” not a building or Church but those called out of the Jewish and Gentile world were faithful.

I thought you might have a further comment on numbers and also respond to my comments on Abraham and the stars. I heard an interview on the radio with the Chief Astronomer from the Sydney NSW Observatory. He was appointed to the job not so much for his knowledge of Astronomy, but because of his scientific qualifications in general. He was from London and had not particularly noticed the stars in London, and similarly when he first arrived in Sydney, both being large cities with much night lighting. Shortly after his arrival he was taken to the Coonabarabran Observatory in the Warrumbungles in the North of NSW. When he arrived at the Observatory, he commented that there would not be much observation that night as there was too much cloud. He was informed: “That is not cloud; that is the Milky Way”.

I believe Psalm 8 is one of the greatest Psalms of praise, next to Psalm 145 which is an excellent Psalm of Praise. David composed Psalm 8 after he had defeated the champion Goliath. This conquest over the man of sin was in effect the start of the Kingdom of God with David as King, a shepherd king who would care for and sustain God’s people, a man after God’s own heart. As a shepherd he would have often considered the stars at night, and be reminded of God’s covenant with Abraham in all its details as well as the promise of the seed and Abraham’s response in faith. He considered the stars and his mind went on to concentrate on the Son of Man through whom God would subdue the whole earth, and reign over mankind and the creation. This Son of Man would be the new Mighty God Isaiah 9:6, the mighty champion to subdue sin in all its causes and effects. Paradoxically the subtitle can be translated “Upon the death of the Son” and to us, after the event, we know how this was outworked in Christ’s conquest of sin and death.
Psalm 8:1-9 (KJV): A Psalm of David.
1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
To the chief Musician upon Muthlabben,

So steaver, whatever you decide about numbers from the times of the Apostles to the present time, a majority or a minority, God’s Kingdom will be established and the ultimate purpose of God to fill this earth with His Glory will be fulfilled.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

David went through great trials, and the early victory over Goliath did not immediately usher in a reign of peace like Solomon’s kingdom. He was an exile persecuted by Saul, and then after his kingdom was established he had many personal trials and failures, and later even the rebellion of his own son Absolom. At the end of his life, with his kingdom established and Solomon about to reign, his mind and affections were not centred on the glory of his achievements, or on the impending glorious reign of Solomon, but on the kingdom yet future, when the greater Son of David would rule over the earth as depicted in Psalm 8. His thoughts are revealed in his “last words”:
2 Samuel 23:1-7 (KJV): 1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, 2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. 3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. 4 And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain. 5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow. 6 But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands: 7 But the man that shall touch them must be fenced with iron and the staff of a spear; and they shall be utterly burned with fire in the same place.

As far as numbers are concerned, I believe the greatest part of the Divine harvest will occur during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the throne of David in Jerusalem:
Isaiah 2:1-5 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Thie last verse was an appeal to natural Israel, but could also be considered a universal appeal to all those who would be spiritual Israel. Jesus after speaking of his impending crucifixion and death, echoes Isaiah 2:5 when he says:
John 12:32-33,35-36 (KJV): 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Kind regards
Trevor

Ok Trevor, should I assume you are finished developing your formula that the RCC is the "little horn" ? I see nothing in your post concerning the RCC since you began with Daniel 2 which points to the Antichrist coming out of Europe, of which I agreed. Do you have anything else? I have limited time and cannot be taking rabbit trials. And when you post scripture and your commentary, please be clear which verses are speaking of the RCC as you see it. Thank you!

 

[steaver]

Ok Trevor, should I assume you are finished developing your formula that the RCC is the "little horn" ? I see nothing in your post concerning the RCC since you began with Daniel 2 which points to the Antichrist coming out of Europe, of which I agreed. Do you have anything else? I have limited time and cannot be taking rabbit trials. And when you post scripture and your commentary, please be clear which verses are speaking of the RCC as you see it. Thank you!

I know you have been away from the board for some time now Trevor, and I have been thinking, this "little horn" is really a rabbit trail from the OP, so if you would like to expound on this I think you should go ahead and create a new thread for it.

But with that said, if the RCC being the "little horn" pertains to our discussion about the truth or error concerning the Trinity, then by all means go ahead and develop the connection. Thank you!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

I know you have been away from the board for some time now Trevor, and I have been thinking, this "little horn" is really a rabbit trail from the OP, so if you would like to expound on this I think you should go ahead and create a new thread for it.

But with that said, if the RCC being the "little horn" pertains to our discussion about the truth or error concerning the Trinity, then by all means go ahead and develop the connection. Thank you!

I have watched the thread disappear from the front page, but did not see the need to further engage. I appreciate your invitation to further expound upon the little horn of Daniel 7, but the main reason why I raised this was to respond to part of your discussion with Thomas Helwys concerning Trinitarianism and Arianism around the time of Constantine. You expressed the opinion that the teaching of the Trinity prevailed because of God’s providence, and this predominance proved that the Trinity must be true because of this. Notice particularly the last statement of the following: “Nothing stops God's Truth from prevailing!!”

Did Constantine persecute Arianism? Sure did. But that does not change the facts that Trinitarianism was already the predominate belief in the Christian world. Constantine may have felt a need to force ALL to believe it, but belief in the Deity of Jesus was already of an overwhelming majority, and he was foolish for believing he could force anyone to believe it, thus, his actions mattered not, the Trinity continue forth with or without him. Nothing stops God's Truth from prevailing!!

My personal belief is that the Apostasy would prevail, and I quoted Daniel 7:21 as an evidence of this. It was mainly to highlight my different perspective. I believe that there have been from time to time faithful witnesses raised up during this long period of Apostasy, but it was not until the Reformation and the French Revolution that the ascendancy of the Papacy was overcome in part. The final overthrow will be at the return of Jesus.

I do not intend to further expound Daniel 7:21 in this thread or a new thread at this time. If I was to continue in this thread I have a lot more useful material, but I feel that I have provided sufficient to explain my understanding of the One God the Father, and the Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ. My summary on Page 19 Post #185 shows most of the areas that I have discussed and I feel that most of this has not been adequately answered from a Trinitarian perspective. I appreciate your participation and your patience and I hope in the days to come that we both may grow in a greater appreciation of this important subject.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

Does anyone else here find it odd that a Christian, having the Holy Spirit of God, having the Spirit of Christ, and after studying the Scriptures through prayer could come to the conclusion that there is no Trinity with God?

I know the "Spirit of Truth" (John 16) would not lead a Christian to that belief.

But the bigger question is - "can a Christian ever be sincerely mistaken who is lead by the Holy Spirit"?

I think the answer to that question is yes. The Holy Spirit does not confirm them in that error, or lead them into it - and would always be making paths to leave that error - but the Christian can certainly be in a form of doctrinal confusion on some point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver,

I have watched the thread disappear from the front page, but did not see the need to further engage. I appreciate your invitation to further expound upon the little horn of Daniel 7, but the main reason why I raised this was to respond to part of your discussion with Thomas Helwys concerning Trinitarianism and Arianism around the time of Constantine. You expressed the opinion that the teaching of the Trinity prevailed because of God’s providence, and this predominance proved that the Trinity must be true because of this. Notice particularly the last statement of the following: “Nothing stops God's Truth from prevailing!!”



Kind regards
Trevor

Even if the RCC is the "little horn" it does not negate what I said about God's Providence in this matter, for even unto this day, millions of non-RCC Christians declare the Trinity of God. You find yourself among a very, very small percentage who do not. So what the RCC believes about the Trinity, while absolutely biblically correct on this point, does not really add anything to this debate.

My summary on Page 19 Post #185 shows most of the areas that I have discussed and I feel that most of this has not been adequately answered from a Trinitarian perspective. I appreciate your participation and your patience and I hope in the days to come that we both may grow in a greater appreciation of this important subject.

I don't see why you think this subject is important, since you have as much said that it doesn't matter if one is a Trinitarian worshipper as far as salvation is concerned. I pressed you on this question of salvation and you said you didn't know, you would let God deal with it. As for me, I don't really see how one who has been born of God, having the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them, could not fall down and worship Jesus Christ.

Do you worship Jesus Christ Trevor?

 

[steaver]

Greetings again steaver,

I have on my desk a small book where the author seeks to expound the OT and NT subject of the manifestation of the invisible eternal God in human nature. The book is a summary of what he had delivered in two lectures at New York. The author was invited by two Trinitarian Jews to address a meeting of mainly Jews who were proving stubborn in accepting the teaching of these two new converts to Trinitarianism. Instead of supporting these two, the author spoke on the consistency of the OT and NT teaching on this subject, showing that there is One God the Father, and that Jesus is the Son of God. The two Trinitarians who had arranged the first meeting rejected the author, but he invited the audience to a second address.

Before giving the second address the author was given a letter by one of the prominent Jews who had been in the audience. From this letter it is evident that most Trinitarian Jews would have to forsake the general perspective of how a normal Jew would consider this subject from the OT. I will quote only a few portions:

The moment a Jew is told that there are three persons, three essences, three somethings or anythings in the Godhead; and that three distinct units or Unities constitute only one unit or One Unity – that that Tri-Unity is the God of Israel, the Jehovah of the Old Testament – the moment, I say, a Jew is told of this, he shrinks back, and stands sternly aloof. The devout Jew points to the declaration on Horeb, “I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” And again, “Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.”

The Jewish world deny that any Jewish writer could have believed in the doctrine of the Trinity, and if this doctrine be found in the New Testament, it has either been foistered in there, or the writers were not Jews.

Kind regards
Trevor

One of your arguments is that a "devout Jew" or "normal Jew" would not accept a Triune God. I say, of course they would not, but, once they have been born of God, reality is, they accept the Trinity for their eyes have been opened and the veil has been removed from their heart.

I ask you, have you actually researched what the majority of Messianic Jews believe concerning Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit? This author, with whom you agree, is obviously ignorant of Jews who have received their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

As I mentioned before, our church supports a Messianic Jewish congregation here in Pittsburg Pa, USA. Here is a link to their website's statement of faith http://www.rockofagesmjc.org/what_we_believe_-_statement_version.html you seem to pride yourself on research and accuracy in your position, so why does the facts about Messianic Jews oppose this author you presented in whom you have agreed with?

 

[Yeshua1]

One of your arguments is that a "devout Jew" or "normal Jew" would not accept a Triune God. I say, of course they would not, but, once they have been born of God, reality is, they accept the Trinity for their eyes have been opened and the veil has been removed from their heart.

I ask you, have you actually researched what the majority of Messianic Jews believe concerning Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit? This author, with whom you agree, is obviously ignorant of Jews who have received their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

As I mentioned before, our church supports a Messianic Jewish congregation here in Pittsburg Pa, USA. Here is a link to their website's statement of faith http://www.rockofagesmjc.org/what_we_believe_-_statement_version.html you seem to pride yourself on research and accuracy in your position, so why does the facts about Messianic Jews oppose this author you presented in whom you have agreed with?

well...

the Angel of the Lord in OT was God appearing in human like form, so God did come down temp even then!

the Lord spoke to Abraham as a man, but also there was the Lord in heaven raing down on Sodom, so how could he be in 2 places at same time?

isaiah and Micah called the messiah by titles/labels reserved for God himself...

So since God came to earth as an Angel of the lord, why could he not come down as a man?

 

[steaver]

well...

the Angel of the Lord in OT was God appearing in human like form, so God did come down temp even then!

the Lord spoke to Abraham as a man, but also there was the Lord in heaven raing down on Sodom, so how could he be in 2 places at same time?

isaiah and Micah called the messiah by titles/labels reserved for God himself...

So since God came to earth as an Angel of the lord, why could he not come down as a man?

I see it, but Trevor feels a need to reinterpret a multitude of scriptures, so he would only reject your references as being the Christ prior to becoming a man.

 

[Yeshua1]

I see it, but Trevor feels a need to reinterpret a multitude of scriptures, so he would only reject your references as being the Christ prior to becoming a man.

Not even asking to see Christ there, just wa that God appearing in a man form or not?

 

[steaver]

Not even asking to see Christ there, just wa that God appearing in a man form or not?

Yes, and God appeared as a burning bush as well, but Trevor declares that God could not create for Himself a human body, enter into this even at conception by the Holy Ghost, and grow into a mature man. I showed Trevor his folly in his declarations, but he remains hardened in his beliefs, unwilling to concede at any point.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, and God appeared as a burning bush as well, but Trevor declares that God could not create for Himself a human body, enter into this even at conception by the Holy Ghost, and grow into a mature man. I showed Trevor his folly in his declarations, but he remains hardened in his beliefs, unwilling to concede at any point.

hopefully, the Lord will intervene and take off his blinders regarding jesus, jut as he did pauls!

 

[TrevorL]

Throughout this thread I maintained that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. This belief is based upon a few foundation Scriptures. Many more Scriptures could be cited.

One God the Father
1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV): But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
John 17:3 (KJV): And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
John 10:36 (KJV): Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Romans 1:1-4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

I also gave an explanation of why I believe that the correct translation of the Name of God in Exodus 3:14 is “I will be” instead of “I AM”. This was in Post#37 on Page 4 and Post #41 on Page 5. Also in response to the claim that Jesus in John 8:58 was claiming the Name “I Am” I gave a brief consideration to the various “I am” passages of John’s Gospel in Post 148 Page 15.

To add a few additional thoughts, consider the following:
Ephesians 4:6 (KJV): One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Corinthians 15:25-28 (KJV): 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The above Scriptures are in line with the foundation verses mentioned above. They show that there is One God the Father, and that Jesus will be subject unto God at the end of the 1000 years.

But the above Scriptures are in line with the exposition of Name of God as “I will be”, as these verses show that the development of the Name of God – ultimately God will be all and in all. God’s character and being will become the faithful – God will be all, and God’s character will be in the faithful so God will be in all. They will be part of Yahweh, they will represent God, and be incorporated into Him. At the end of the 1000 years God’s purpose will be fulfilled:
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
Habakkuk 2:14 (KJV): For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

If then the Lord Jesus Christ is thus part of the Yahweh Name, and represents God the Father, is it wrong to bow the knee and worship Jesus? The following shows that in bowing the knee to Jesus and worshipping him, it is fully acknowledging all that God the Father has accomplished, and this submission and worship to Jesus ultimately redounds to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV): 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus has been given the Name Yahweh and this redounds to the glory of God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[steaver]

Trevor,

You have a couple of issues; I learned early on in my discipleship that if a group needs to claim erroneous translating to prove their interpretations this is a huge red flag. The translation is "I AM" and is thus translated as such in every translation which has been translated by hundreds if not thousands of Hebrew scholars and which has also been accepted by the Holy Spirit filled Christian community around the world. The Jehovah Witnesses had to rewrite the manuscripts to suit their own doctrines of demons and they needed to do the same thing you are doing with "I AM", as well as hundreds of other verses to suit their antichrist Jesus is not God agenda.

Second, God has declared - Is42:8 - "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." If Jesus is not God, you best not worship him. Every knee shall bow and worship Him, either to eternal life or to eternal death.

You have a problem Trevor, you are either a false teacher, which bears the responsibility of knowing the truth as it is written and purposefully trying to attack it and lead others astray (hath God said?), or you are deceived, which bears the responsibility of you seeking those mainstream accepted Christian God appointed teachers who teach the doctrines concerning Jesus Christ from the accepted translations.

There has always been vigilantes coming out of Christian churches, who didn't like something they read in the scriptures, so they turned to their own interpreting which then led them to their own translating to meet that interpreting. You certainly are not the first and won't be the last. Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, C.T. Russell created the JWs, Ellen White created the SDAs. I pray you will repent and seek the truth, the truth is not found in retranslating, God has already given us a solid foundation of English translations, if your translating is found to be in the minority you need to realize you are being deceived.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again steaver,

I appreciate hearing from you again on this thread. This was originally your thread and we had a reasonably thorough discussion on many aspects of this subject. I hope you did not mind my posting on this again. One reason why I preferred to awaken this thread is that possibly it shows your persistence in setting forth the Trinity and it also contains some of my answers. Thus anyone reading can consider both sides of the discussion. I was also involved with some discussion on the Trinity on another thread despite the fact that the other thread had a different title, not related to the Trinity. I felt that most of what was being said in that thread on both sides was a repeat of what we had discussed here.

You have a couple of issues; I learned early on in my discipleship that if a group needs to claim erroneous translating to prove their interpretations this is a huge red flag. The translation is "I AM" and is thus translated as such in every translation which has been translated by hundreds if not thousands of Hebrew scholars and which has also been accepted by the Holy Spirit filled Christian community around the world. The Jehovah Witnesses had to rewrite the manuscripts to suit their own doctrines of demons and they needed to do the same thing you are doing with "I AM", as well as hundreds of other verses to suit their antichrist Jesus is not God agenda.

If a new or different translation does not have scholarly support, then we should be very reticent to consider this. But the RV and RSV margins both suggest that an alternative or even perhaps the correct translation is “I will be”. Have you ever considered the possibility that “I will be” is the correct translation?

On another thread it was suggested that Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 are closely linked by the expression “I AM”. This echoed your claim that Jesus in John 8:58 was claiming to be God. In Post #148 on Page 15 I considered the various “I am” passages of John’s Gospel, and I still believe that these help to gain an understanding of John 8:58. This is called comparing Scripture with Scripture. The following was part of your response, not much different to your present Post:

A lot of wasted effort Trevor. You, and others, have gone out of your way to strip Jesus of His rightful place in God. One day you will know the truth, I pray it is not too late when you do.

You can retranslate until your blue in the face and it will not change the simple truth that is written for us, even translated for us into plain English from thousands of reputable Hebrew and Greek scholars.

I would recommend that you reconsider the “I will be” of the RV margin and also the other “I am” passages of John’s Gospel.

In the year that has elapsed since our previous discussion I have considered whether the link between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 is valid. It is claimed that the LXX supports such a link. I am not skilled sufficiently to discuss the Greek of the LXX and NT passages. I have a copy of a discussion that a skilled linguist had with some who were claiming much the same as you regarding the link between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14. It is part of a larger discussion with 120 Posts on another forum about 10 years ago. This writer was also claiming in his thread that the meaning of the Yahweh name is the future “I will be”. Here is a portion of his statement:

The LXX is quoted often in the NT, but not always - the Hebrew text is also quoted and the LXX carefully avoided when it is in error. The revelation of God’s Name was given 1100 years before the LXX was translated so can hardly be considered "contemporary". The LXX says: "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you." Ex 3:14 (Brenton's translation). "I am the being" (ego eimi ho on) - not "I am what I am". While it is translated as present tense, it becomes problematic to those who want to make a connection with John 8 (the "I am" sayings of Jesus), as instead of saying "I AM has sent me", the LXX says "THE BEING" has sent me. I do not think that the LXX overrules Hebrew scholars.

In other words he does not see any real connection between the LXX of Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58, as the LXX comes up with “the BEING” rather than “I AM” in the second part of the verse, and in effect loses the original meaning of the words in Hebrew. In his thread he faced fairly intense opposition to his view of “I will be”, but even a Trinitarian Hebrew scholar eventually conceded that Exodus 3:14 is correctly translated as “I will be”. My personal reflection is to question why the LXX seems to be a poor or wrong translation of Exodus 3:14. I came up with a number of possibilities.
1. It is simply a poor translation, as is some other portions of the LXX.
2. They did not understand the true import of the Divine Name “I will be”.
3. They did not want to have these Gentiles taking the Name in vain and so they gave a simplistic translation to avoid this possibility of blasphemy.

Second, God has declared - Is42:8 - "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." If Jesus is not God, you best not worship him. Every knee shall bow and worship Him, either to eternal life or to eternal death.

I really feel that I have explained my understanding of this difficulty in my previous Post where I considered Philippians 2:9-11. You may not accept this explanation, but I do not have anything to add except if you have a Strong’s Concordance or similar you may find other references to the word “worship” in the NT that may modify your view. If you would like me to do this, and Post my research here I will be happy to oblige in a few days.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DHK and steaver,

I have moved the response to your Post to the Trinity thread, as I suggested to steaver that I would look at the word worship. This is partly considered in response to your comments on Philippians 2:10-11.

It is an irrelevant point. Look at an older translation (Geneva)
Php 2:10 That at the Name of Iesus shoulde euery knee bowe, both of things in heauen, and things in earth, and things vnder the earth,
Php 2:11 And that euery tongue shoulde confesse that Iesus Christ is the Lord, vnto the glory of God the Father.

First, the point is made in verse 10. "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is "the Lord."
And this is unto the glory of the Father. It is unto of for the glory of the Father. It is the worship of the Son. This much is obvious. The worship of the Son is the worship of the Father for they are one God. The worship of the Son is received as God, for only God can be worshiped. There is no other answer for this.

I am satisfied with my explanation on Philippians 2:9-11 given in Post #214 Page 22 of this thread above. My explanation also needs an understanding of the development of the Yahweh Name, and this is considered in other Posts in the Trinity thread.

In response to your comment “only God can be worshipped” above, the word “worship” (Greek proskuneo) is not always applied to God, but is used in a general sense both in the OT (LXX) and in the NT.
Genesis 23:7 (KJV): And Abraham stood up, and bowed (LXX proskuneo) himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.
Joshua 5:14 (KJV): And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship (LXX proskuneo), and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
1 Samuel 24:8 (KJV): David also arose afterward, and went out of the cave, and cried after Saul, saying, My lord the king. And when Saul looked behind him, David stooped with his face to the earth, and bowed (LXX proskuneo) himself.
1 Samuel 25:23 (KJV): And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed (LXX proskuneo) herself to the ground,
Matthew 18:26 (KJV): The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped (Greek proskuneo) him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Revelation 3:9 (KJV): Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship (Greek proskuneo) before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

You have never given an adequate answer to this. You simply go to the rest of the chapter. Never mind the rest of the chapter where some quotes and references are made from David in the Psalms. That is irrelevant. Deal with these very few verses:

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Nevermind verses 34 and following. Just answer from these verses and from these alone.
Here is the dialogue.
1. Jesus claimed deity.
2. The Jews knowing this is a claim to deity begin to stone him.
3. Jesus, making sure of their intent, asks the reason for their attempt to stone him.
4. They answer him plainly: "Because thou being a man makest thyself God.

They knew it was a claim to deity. They knew he was claiming to be God. And therefore they called it blasphemy and began to stone him. That is all the information that we need. How do you account for this?

I disagree with Item 1 above – He claimed unity with His Father, and part of Item 2 – the Jews misunderstood his claim of unity with His Father. Their assessment is given in your Item 4, and Jesus actually answers their wrong assessment and you want me to ignore his answer. He was the Son of God, not God the Son. I am satisfied with my explanation of John 10:30 in Post #34 Page 4 of the Significance of Revelation’s Blessings thread and Post #13 Page 2 and Post #40 Page 4 of this Trinity thread. This latter Post also includes an explanation of the role of the judges. In many respects those that were accusing and judging Jesus were in the process of fulfilling Psalm 82, and God would judge these corrupt members of the Sanhedrin, these judges. Nicodemus gradually was enabled to move from under the shadow of the Sanhedrin and become identified with the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

On another thread it was suggested that Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 are closely linked by the expression “I AM”. This echoed your claim that Jesus in John 8:58 was claiming to be God. In Post #148 on Page 15 I considered the various “I am” passages of John’s Gospel, and I still believe that these help to gain an understanding of John 8:58. This is called comparing Scripture with Scripture. The following was part of your response, not much different to your present Post:

Take a Greek Lexicon and look at it. "ho on" is merely the participle form of the verb "eimi" and both are present tense. In other words, "ho on" is merely a reassertion or emphatic clarification of the very same Greek term but in the participle form.

The King James translated it "I AM that I AM" as they realized that "ho on" was simply a reasserted intensification of "ego eimi." At the very minimum it must be translated "I am the existing one." It is not a future tense "I shall be" nor is it an imperfect tense "I have been."

The Jesus you believe in and serve is the same Jesus Paul referred to in 2 Cor. 11:4. Your position requires explaining away too much Scriptures and the position that is forced to explain away scriptures is the weaker position. I hope some day you will come to receive the Jesus of the Bible - the existing one or "the same today, yesterday and forever" kind of Jesus.

John 1:1 and the Greek grammar leave no question that Jesus is Elohim the Creator in Genesis 1:1. Time begins with something that can be measured by a beginning but yet the imperfect tense verb "en" demands the Word was existing prior to anything measurable by time, thus no beginning "In the beginning WAS [en] the Word." Verse 3 demands that "in the beginning" refers to everthing in existence that has a beginning. The Greek prepostion "pros" when used between individuals declares "face to face" equality but yet distinction between Persons and thus "the Word was WITH [pros] God." The last phrase simply delcares what the two former phrases demand "The Word was God" who has no beginning and is equal to God in attributes but yet distinct in Persons thus not all that God is. The Grammar of Matthew 28:20 demands the Trinitarian veiw of God as the repeated conjunction and definite article demand this. The evidence is spread out all over the Bible in literally hundreds of places for those who have "ears to hear" to receive. Now, I have come to the problem, "ears to hear" and "eyes to see." That is something only God can give and until He does no amount of argument will convince a person of this truth (Deut. 29:4).

 

[steaver]

I really feel that I have explained my understanding of this difficulty in my previous Post where I considered Philippians 2:9-11. You may not accept this explanation, but I do not have anything to add except if you have a Strong’s Concordance or similar you may find other references to the word “worship” in the NT that may modify your view. If you would like me to do this, and Post my research here I will be happy to oblige in a few days.

Kind regards
Trevor

You have one other issue against your pov. Mainstream Christianity understands that born-again is the Spirit of Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit, also reffered to as God (Ro8) , living within the Christian, spirit joined with Spirit as a new creation. The Holy Spirit whom dwells in the believer testifies that Jesus Christ is God. True Christians worship Jesus Christ as God, the Spirit within testifies this as truth and the Spirit reveals this to us in His Word. You are in a very tiny minority Trevor, I would hope that would throw up a huge red flag to you.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist and steaver.

Take a Greek Lexicon and look at it. "ho on" is merely the participle form of the verb "eimi" and both are present tense. In other words, "ho on" is merely a reassertion or emphatic clarification of the very same Greek term but in the participle form.

The King James translated it "I AM that I AM" as they realized that "ho on" was simply a reasserted intensification of "ego eimi." At the very minimum it must be translated "I am the existing one." It is not a future tense "I shall be" nor is it an imperfect tense "I have been."

I appreciate the clarification of the LXX of Exodus 3:14. I am a little confused as to what you are saying though, as I understand the KJV is an attempt to translate Exodus 3:14 from the Hebrew. Therefore if the Hebrew ehyeh is a present tense then “ehyeh asher ehyeh” is correctly translated as “I AM that I AM”. The LXX then is not a literal translation of the Hebrew into Greek. Did the KJV translators accept the present tense from the LXX and ignore the future tense of the Hebrew? Did they prefer the present tense because of their Trinitarian bias? By comparison the Tyndale translation gave the future tense:
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

I hold to the view that ehyeh is a future tense, as translated correctly for example in the immediate context Exodus 3:12 and in the RV and RSV margins. I have given a fairly thorough consideration in this thread of “I will be” and the meaning and development of this theme throughout the OT and NT in Post #37 Page 4, Post #41 Page 5 and recently Post #214 page 22. This is not a recent or fanciful opinion, as I was introduced to this subject at a Young People’s Study Weekend over 50 years ago, and have developed a greater appreciation of this since.

The Jesus you believe in and serve is the same Jesus Paul referred to in 2 Cor. 11:4. Your position requires explaining away too much Scriptures and the position that is forced to explain away scriptures is the weaker position. I hope some day you will come to receive the Jesus of the Bible - the existing one or "the same today, yesterday and forever" kind of Jesus.

I appreciate your sincerity here, but I do not in any way feel that I am in the weaker position on this subject. I consider that both the OT and NT support my understanding. There are certainly some passages that need to be understood, but even with these I find the oft explained Trinity view of these verses untenable, and usually do not fit what the actual words say.

To confirm this, mention has been made of John 10:30 and Jesus’ explanation and answer to those who accused him. In addition to my response in earlier Posts, please consider the following:
John 10:36 (KJV): 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jesus has been sanctified and has been sent. The following shows that it is the Father that sanctified Jesus and Jesus shares this status with the faithful, his brethren. His brethren share his humanity.
Hebrews 2:11 (KJV): For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

In Isaiah and the NT the Messiah or Christ is set forth as God’s Servant. As a servant Jesus has been sent, and as such the Father is greater than His Servant.
Isaiah 42:1 (KJV): Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
John 13:16 (KJV): Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 1:1 and the Greek grammar leave no question that Jesus is Elohim the Creator in Genesis 1:1. Time begins with …. (refer Post for detail)
The Grammar of Matthew 28:20 demands the Trinitarian view of God as the repeated conjunction and definite article demand this. The evidence is spread out all over the Bible in literally hundreds of places for those who have "ears to hear" to receive. Now, I have come to the problem, "ears to hear" and "eyes to see." That is something only God can give and until He does no amount of argument will convince a person of this truth (Deut. 29:4).

I have discussed John 1:1-14 at length and believe that “The Word” in John 1:1 is either a metaphor, or a personification similar to the woman “Wisdom” in Proverbs 8. Are you referring to Matthew 28:19? I believe the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all part of the One Name, Yahweh. I have also discussed the word “Elohim” of the OT, especially Genesis 1:26, Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2:7, Post #45 Page 4, Post #119 Page 12, and have come to a different conclusion. The angels were active in the creation, but God the Father, Yahweh, is the Creator.

You have one other issue against your pov. Mainstream Christianity understands that born-again is the Spirit of Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit, also referred to as God (Ro8) , living within the Christian, spirit joined with Spirit as a new creation. The Holy Spirit whom dwells in the believer testifies that Jesus Christ is God. True Christians worship Jesus Christ as God, the Spirit within testifies this as truth and the Spirit reveals this to us in His Word. You are in a very tiny minority Trevor, I would hope that would throw up a huge red flag to you.

This reminds me of your very first Post, Post #1, Page 1. I prefer to rely upon the Word of God than this claim of Mainstream Christianity having the Spirit. Nor am I concerned as to numbers. Please remember Elijah’s pleading cf the 7000.

Perhaps we could take a sample to compare what both of you are claiming. The Biblicist suggests that I have to alter verses and steaver claims numbers are on his side and his view is confirmed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In answer to both, I suggest that when Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost he revealed certain things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. Did Peter preach the Trinity in Acts 2? As far as numbers are concerned, here in Acts 2 we have the conversion of 3000 in response to Peter’s preaching. I do not see the need to alter any of the following verses, and in my opinion what is taught here is contrary to the Trinity.
Acts 2:22 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:32-36 (KJV): 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor