"Truth without any mixture of error"

[Revmitchell]

Well that is one way of side stepping the question. IMHO if such a fact were proven an error and it hurt or destroyed a person's faith, then I question if that person's faith has any depth to it in the hear and now. And to me, now at this stage of my life, faith is more of a verb than a noun. What do I mean? Well, anyone can say I believe and it may or may not be true. But show me your works, as James calls them, and I will show you your faith. I am not saying that works saves, but that works shows what a person's faith is all about.

Dietrich Bonehoffer gives great insight into this in his book, The Cost of Discipleship. If you have not read it I strongly recomment it. As he points out, we are not to dispense cheap grace as grace is not cheap just as discipleship is not cheap. In fact, true discipleship may cost a person his/her life. To be a true disciple of Christ we give him our life, it is no longer our own. We must be willing to go where he leads, to do what he wills. We are to give all to him and if we are unwilling to give all, then we are still small in our faith.

Christ spoke very little about what we are to believe, but he spoke a lot about how we are to treat others. Remember the judgement as recorded in Matthew. It was not beliefs by which the "sheep" and "goats" were judged, but by what they did ... what their faith led them to do or not to go.

IMHO you infact side stepped what I said. And you seem to separate faith and discipleship. Scripture doesnt. This emphasis of treating others over what we believe is nonsensical. I do not say that to be bombastic. Faith and discipleship are in fact one. You cannot have faith and not be a disciple. The Bible is full of what we are to believe. And Christ spoke quite extensively about that.

I would also add that discipleship has the eternal in view not so much what is going on now which was clearly exemplified in Christs ministry.

 

[Revmitchell]

This is the saddest statement I have ever seen. Truly.:tear:

 

[Revmitchell]

Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[Crabtownboy]

IMHO you infact side stepped what I said. And you seem to separate faith and discipleship. Scripture doesnt. This emphasis of treating others over what we believe is nonsensical. I do not say that to be bombastic. Faith and discipleship are in fact one. You cannot have faith and not be a disciple. The Bible is full of what we are to believe. And Christ spoke quite extensively about that.

I would also add that discipleship has the eternal in view not so much what is going on now which was clearly exemplified in Christs ministry.

You totally misunderstand what I am saying. I guess we should just drop the subject.

 

[Revmitchell]

You totally misunderstand what I am saying. I guess we should just drop the subject.

Well you are welcome to move on. But lets be clear. I did understand what you were saying.

You take a principle like discipleship and works and place a greater emphasis on them than you do scripture so that you can feel comfortable with believing in errors in scripture. That way scripture becomes subjective and gives room for more personal thought and less room for dogmatism. That way we can all get along and follow Christ the way we "feel" lead. After all feelings and experiences speak more to a true faith than dogmatic words written in a "book" to use your own word.

Hows that for understanding?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Well you are welcome to move on. But lets be clear. I did understand what you were saying.

You take a principle like discipleship and works and place a greater emphasis on them than you do scripture so that you can feel comfortable with believing in errors in scripture. That way scripture becomes subjective and gives room for more personal thought and less room for dogmatism. That way we can all get along and follow Christ the way we "feel" lead. After all feelings and experiences speak more to a true faith than dogmatic words written in a "book" to use your own word.

Hows that for understanding?

If there are errors in scripture it would not destroy my faith because my faith is not dependant on words recorded by men who were inspired by God. My faith is in God and I will stand by and with Him through all. Faith, discipleship and works are a trinity ... all are important but for different reasons. I promised God years ago that when he opened a door I would go through it. He has opened many doors, and I must say some have led to most interesting places and events. I would hope you would do the same, follow Him wherever he leads, even if it proves costly to you in some way. It seems that your faith is totally dependent on your own understanding of scripture. We all are prone to error in our interpretations.

As to your last question, I stand by my other statement, you seem to totally misunderstand what I am saying.

 

[Revmitchell]

If there are errors in scripture it would not destroy my faith because my faith is not dependant on words recorded by men who were inspired by God. My faith is in God and I will stand by and with Him through all. Faith, discipleship and works are a trinity ... all are important but for different reasons. I promised God years ago that when he opened a door I would go through it. He has opened many doors, and I must say some have led to most interesting places and events. I would hope you would do the same, follow Him wherever he leads, even if it proves costly to you in some way. It seems that your faith is totally dependent on your own understanding of scripture. We all are prone to error in our interpretations.

As to your last question, I stand by my other statement, you seem to totally misunderstand what I am saying.

Interesting. How do you know God is opening the door? By what standard do you measure that experience against?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Interesting. How do you know God is opening the door? By what standard do you measure that experience against?

When a door is opened but there seems to be insurmountable problems that disappear leaving the way clear, then I take it that God oened the door and I follow. I do not have time to go into all the details, but over the last 4 years 5 doors were opened for us to work in seminary libraries in the Czech Republic and in Moscow, Russia. We were not sure how we could arrange this for a number of reasons ... one being, what do we do about our house in the States seeing as to how we will be away from 5 weeks to six months. In each instance God has brought someone into our life who needed a place to live the exact amount of time, and at the same time, we were to be away. We never had to advertise, never had to go asking people if they knew someone who needed a place to live ... they just appeared. God is amazing.

So, if a door, opportunity, whatever you want to call it, is presented to me and the potential problems simply are taken care of without my having to work at them .... I would work at them if necessary ... I will go anywhere he leads. Am I worried about going? No I am not. He calls me to go and I do not worry about returning. If I die while doing His work, that is all right with me. He calls me to go and opens the doors. He does not guarantee the return, and that is fine with me.

 

[Revmitchell]

When a door is opened but there seems to be insurmountable problems that disappear leaving the way clear, then I take it that God oened the door and I follow. I do not have time to go into all the details, but over the last 4 years 5 doors were opened for us to work in seminary libraries in the Czech Republic and in Moscow, Russia. We were not sure how we could arrange this for a number of reasons ... one being, what do we do about our house in the States seeing as to how we will be away from 5 weeks to six months. In each instance God has brought someone into our life who needed a place to live the exact amount of time, and at the same time, we were to be away. We never had to advertise, never had to go asking people if they knew someone who needed a place to live ... they just appeared. God is amazing.

So, if a door, opportunity, whatever you want to call it, is presented to me and the potential problems simply are taken care of without my having to work at them .... I would work at them if necessary ... I will go anywhere he leads. Am I worried about going? No I am not. He calls me to go and I do not worry about returning. If I die while doing His work, that is all right with me. He calls me to go and opens the doors. He does not guarantee the return, and that is fine with me.

Ok let me try this another way. How do you know the opportunity is of God? What standard do you use to determine that what is behind the door is of God?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Ok let me try this another way. How do you know the opportunity is of God? What standard do you use to determine that what is behind the door is of God?

Do you mean do I look for a verse or a passage that says, "Yes, go to Russia and work in a seminary library?" No, I don't. But I would not go if it was to do something that I see as a violation of discipleship in scripture.[I was a bit nervous going to Russia, but that did not play a part in my going. We cannot let our fears control our saying "yes" to God. [We wrote the man, who is a Ph.D. student here in Prague but lives in Moscow most of the time, telling him we were a bit nervous having heard stories about the Russian Mafia. He replied in an e-mail, "Don't worry about them. They are now too busy killing politicians to worry about tourists."

We had a wonderful time in Moscow and met some wonderful Christians.

Would I think it was from God if it was to go and do something that was unethical or illegal? No, in cases like that I would not believe it was from God.

Does it fit my skills? Will it be helpful to someone? If the answer is yes, then I would consider it from God.

I do not believe God will call us to do somethat that is harmful, illegal or unethical.

My guess is you are asking me, "Does it fit into scripture?" And, yes it would have to fit scripture for the reasons above.

 

[Revmitchell]

Do you mean do I look for a verse or a passage that says, "Yes, go to Russia and work in a seminary library?" No, I don't. But I would not go if it was to do something that I see as a violation of discipleship in scripture.[I was a bit nervous going to Russia, but that did not play a part in my going. We cannot let our fears control our saying "yes" to God. [We wrote the man, who is a Ph.D. student here in Prague but lives in Moscow most of the time, telling him we were a bit nervous having heard stories about the Russian Mafia. He replied in an e-mail, "Don't worry about them. They are now too busy killing politicians to worry about tourists."

We had a wonderful time in Moscow and met some wonderful Christians.

Would I think it was from God if it was to go and do something that was unethical or illegal? No, in cases like that I would not believe it was from God.

Does it fit my skills? Will it be helpful to someone? If the answer is yes, then I would consider it from God.

I do not believe God will call us to do somethat that is harmful, illegal or unethical.

My guess is you are asking me, "Does it fit into scripture?" And, yes it would have to fit scripture for the reasons above.

So is it fair to say that your feelings and experiences are measured by the standard of the "book" (bible)?

 

[Crabtownboy]

So is it fair to say that your feelings and experiences are measured by the standard of the "book" (bible)?

To the best of my ability.

 

[Revmitchell]

To the best of my ability.

So then your faith does rest on words in a book?



*note-I cringe to reuse your words characterizing the Bible

 

[Deacon]

Back awhile, in the first few years after I came to know the Lord, an older gentleman (gosh, he had to be in his mid-twenty’s :laugh: ) said, “If there is one mistake in the Bible, then I would give up my faith”.
I was impressed enough with the statement to remember it.

As I’ve grown I’ve come to believe that it’s a miserable way to live.
And the statement is close enough to what MB said that it’s scary.

MB: “If there is one mistake that changes what it says then the whole of it is false.”

Crabby: “To me this is one of the saddest comments I can imagine.”

I agree! :thumbs:

I believe that God’s word is without error.
But even if I were to find an err, I’d still believe!
My ability to reason things out helps to strengthen my faith but isn’t integral to my faith.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1 NASB95

Rob

 

[MB]

Back awhile, in the first few years after I came to know the Lord, an older gentleman (gosh, he had to be in his mid-twenty’s :laugh: ) said, “If there is one mistake in the Bible, then I would give up my faith”.
I was impressed enough with the statement to remember it.

As I’ve grown I’ve come to believe that it’s a miserable way to live.
And the statement is close enough to what MB said that it’s scary.

MB: “If there is one mistake that changes what it says then the whole of it is false.”

Crabby: “To me this is one of the saddest comments I can imagine.”

I agree! :thumbs:

I believe that God’s word is without error.
But even if I were to find an err, I’d still believe!
My ability to reason things out helps to strengthen my faith but isn’t integral to my faith.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1 NASB95

Rob

Does this mean you would continue to believe what it says even though you knew it was wrong?.
MB

 

[Deacon]

It means I trust God.

Though there are thngs that I don't understand,
Though there might be things that could be percieved as err,

I still hold God true.

I don't need to be able to figure everything out (however hard I try).

How's that song go...

I am weak but thou art strong
Jesus keep me from all harm
I'll be satified as long
as I walk, let me walk close to Thee.

Rob

For we know in part....

 

[Crabtownboy]

Does this mean you would continue to believe what it says even though you knew it was wrong?.
MB

A mistake in a translation we now have would say nothing about the steadfastness, faithfulness or anything else about God. It would only mean that someone made a mistake ... whether intentional or accidential I would not know. But it would do nothing to shake my faith in God.

 

[MB]

Crabtownboy and Deacon;
I wasn't speaking about believing in God, I was referring to the Bible. I can't deny what I know to be true about Him either. However there are some translations I do not trust because, they aren't all the same nor, do they all say the same things. There is only one truth not several. If every Bible were correct, then they would all say the same things at precisely the same point, and in the same way.
MB

 

[Crabtownboy]

Crabtownboy and Deacon;
I wasn't speaking about believing in God, I was referring to the Bible. I can't deny what I know to be true about Him either. However there are some translations I do not trust because, they aren't all the same nor, do they all say the same things. There is only one truth not several. If every Bible were correct, then they would all say the same things at precisely the same point, and in the same way.
MB

I have no problem with your comment, but I do not know what you mean when you say, "There is only one truth." Can you expand on that for me. Thanks

 

[Revmitchell]

To the best of my ability.

So then your faith does rest on words in a book?