Trying to understand John 8:47

[skypair]

Bro Bob,

Romans: 8
"16": The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

"17": And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I guess as far as absolute knowledge goes, this is the best we have. I say ever how much knowledge you have is ever how much faith you have.

I have found this Scripture to be the strongest evidence we have anyway.

That's honest at least. And good! Heb 11:1 says faith is evidence. Definitely the Spirit comforting you, "leading you into all truth," giving expression to your prayer, giving you spiritual gifts (1Cor 12:7-11), glorifying Christ in you, etc. -- all good evidence.

Knowledge doesn't exactly equal faith but it comes from believing the Spirit as well. That's good!

So (we talked about this on the other thread) how many of the mysteries of God has the Spirit taught you? How about of the parables? 1Cor 2:7 -- "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:... [For] we have the mind of Christ."

Do you account the Spirit to have made you like this:1Cor 4:1 -- "Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God."

This is a "self-examination" for you, Bob. I neither judge you nor question you in your testimony on this point. How many things HAS the Spirit taught you that you didn't hear from men? For me, it was an interesting "exam!"

skypair

 

[J.D.]

Okay, I'm outa here. Don't know how to make it plainer. Bible says they believe because they are born of God. They can't see till they're born. You say they are born of God because they believe. You say they must see, then be born. I give up.
(but I'll be back)

 

[webdog]

Okay, I'm outa here. Don't know how to make it plainer. Bible says they believe because they are born of God. They can't see till they're born. You say they are born of God because they believe. You say they must see, then be born. I give up.
(but I'll be back)

There is no "before" or "after" with God...there just "is".

 

[psalms109:31]

Follow the crowd

We can just follow the crowd and not be called by the Father and not be saved, because of not coming to Jesus, we were just following the crowd.

No one can come to Jesus unless you are drawn by the Father, you are not following the Father by following the crowd.

We are called by the Father through the words of Jesus, because Jesus words was not His own by the Father who sent Him.

All men have not been drawn untill Jesus Christ is lifted up.

We cannot not make a choice to believe or not not to believe without the Spirit of God that is in the words of Jesus.

God in His sovreignty put before men a choice of life and death. To believe in Jesus and be saved, or not and be condemned.

God did not lean us to a direction, but a choice.

God does want all men to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth.

Our belief and our faith was given to us by God though His word.

Jesus did the work for our salvation on the cross, so we are saved by grace.

It is a free gift from God, but in His sovreignty is not going to give it to those who reject His Son.

The Jews was not cut out because they were not chosen, they were cut out for unbelief.

God before the fondation of the world has chosen to save believers.

Do not be arrogant, but afraid, if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either.

Our only hope is in Jesus.

Men have always been looking for another way in and they are nothing but robbers and thieves

 

[Brother Bob]

This is a "self-examination" for you, Bob. I neither judge you nor question you in your testimony on this point. How many things HAS the Spirit taught you that you didn't hear from men? For me, it was an interesting "exam!"

skypair

skypair;
I wouldn't know where to start. First let me say that I base my preaching on a Spiritual guidance from God on the Scriptures. I will use one subject "The Law". There are so many who feel they know all about the "Law" when it is one of the deepest subjects in the Bible. I studied it for years and years before I felt that God had given me enough understanding on the Law to be able to preach it in a way the congregation could also see into it. For example "The Law and the Prophets were until John". Many of my brethren believe that means the end of the Law, but all of them continue to preach all the Prophets. I believe it is saying that what they had were the Law and the Prophets but now, not only do we have the Law and the Prophets but we also have the teaching of Christ and the NT. Let me say this then I will leave the Law. Apostle Paul said it best when he said there are those who desire to be teachers of the Law and know not what they say and neither do they understand, but we that know the Law, know it is not for the RIGHTEOUS but for the SINNER AND UNGODLY. (this says a lot and you could preach for hours on it.)
It would take a book to write what I feel has been opened up to me through the Spirit. I am not talking about something new that is not in the Bible but I am talking about an understanding of the Scripture itself. Have you ever been laying around 3 or 4 in the morning meditating and all of a sudden the Scripture opens up to you and was simple all along you just couldn't see it? peace

So (we talked about this on the other thread) how many of the mysteries of God has the Spirit taught you? How about of the parables? 1Cor 2:7 -- "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:... [For] we have the mind of Christ."

Do you account the Spirit to have made you like this:1Cor 4:1 -- "Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God."

Yes, I rejoice in the understanding I feel I get from the Lord Himself through the Spirit. Preaching is a mystery. How could you tie all the Scriptures you cover in a sermon together so they actually rythmne together and paint a picture. Sometimes I come home from a service so lifted up because of how the Spirit guided my preaching that it lasts for days. I hope you do too.

Skypair;
Is this what you are asking of me or is there something else I am not picking up on?

 

[Jarthur001]

There is no "before" or "after" with God...there just "is".

Indeed.

But we are not talking about foreknowing God. Now there is a before and after with man. Therefore there is a "FORE" as in foreknowing in man. Being God saves men, salvation has a beginning. With no man, we would not be talking about a before or a after. God made time as part of matter. It is His world and when working with man He does use time.

 

[whatever]

Yes, I agree. The other two "of God"s logically follow.

Unless, as the calvinists believe, the order is: Elect of God, Born of God, Believer of God.

Calvinist version of John 3:16?

(For God so loved the (elect), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever hath everlasting life, should not perish, but believeth in him.)

Nope, the Calvinist version of John 3:16 is "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." It really isn't the problem for Calvinism that you might think it is. Keep digging.

 

[webdog]

Indeed.

But we are not talking about foreknowing God. Now there is a before and after with man. Therefore there is a "FORE" as in foreknowing in man. Being God saves men, salvation has a beginning. With no man, we would not be talking about a before or a after. God made time as part of matter. It is His world and when working with man He does use time.

I don't understand this. There is no foreknowing God...but there is God foreknowing us? I have always known God, and He hasn't always foreknown me? Huh?

 

[skypair]

skypair;
Apostle Paul said it best when he said there are those who desire to be teachers of the Law and know not what they say and neither do they understand, but we that know the Law, know it is not for the RIGHTEOUS but for the SINNER AND UNGODLY.

Good! And not only do "sinners and ungodly" come under it but it keeps even believers on the 'straight and narrow' though we are expected to do so much more "in the Spirit!" (this says a lot and you could preach for hours on it.)

Have you ever been laying around 3 or 4 in the morning meditating and all of a sudden the Scripture opens up to you and was simple all along you just couldn't see it? peace

Filled with the Spirit, Bob. When God FILLS your whole mind, emotions, and will (which is YOUR whole spirit) so that there is nothing else and then He can speak to you clearly! Yes.

What I really was asking regarding the other thread was that you didn't seem to want to study Mt 13 or the other parables. Maybe you didn't have time. I don't know. Maybe you felt like mine couldn't be Spirit enlightened. That was the impression I got. Yet when we read Paul in 1Cor 2, we see that it is important to understand the "deeper things of God" and he even calls that being a "good stewards of the mysteries." I thought I saw evidence that your stewardship was incomplete, is all.

Sometimes I come home from a service so lifted up because of how the Spirit guided my preaching that it lasts for days. I hope you do too.

I have a small "ministry" as correspondent to pilots in our FedEx prayer group. But yes, most of the time I find myself eager to teach something else God has revealed or just something to meet a new need.

Skypair

 

[skypair]

JD,

Okay, I'm outa here. Don't know how to make it plainer. Bible says they believe because they are born of God. They can't see till they're born. You say they are born of God because they believe. You say they must see, then be born. I give up.
(but I'll be back)

Surely you don't mean that you needn't believe in order to be saved, are you? And are you really trying to say that one has a spiritual life before they believe? Wouldn't that, in itself, be some merit God would "find" in you that causes Him to "elect" you and not someone else?

How soon before one believes is one born spiritually?

On another thought: I was reading something I thought you would get a kick out of. Vance was (half chuckilng) saying that God LET"S man sin by His "Sovereign Permission!" :laugh: :laugh: Therefore, He is not responsible for causing or predestining our sinning.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

I thought I saw evidence that your stewardship was incomplete, is all.

I have 34 years at the helm and still learning.

 

[skypair]

Bob,

I have 34 years at the helm and still learning.

COOL! :thumbs:

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't understand this. There is no foreknowing God...but there is God foreknowing us? I have always known God, and He hasn't always foreknown me? Huh?

Man does not foreknow God, for God has no beginning.

However, Man has a beginning and time applies to man.

Therefore...God can say and we can clearly understand that He know us and elected us in the past before we were born for it is Man he is speaking of and not God who has no beginning.



In Christ...James