Trying to understand John 8:47

The reason so many things seem to contradict is because everything is looked at within the scope of time...a measurement made for humans. We cannot understand everything about God and Scripture if we hold to that notion. I just posted this from A. Badger on the other thread that backs this...


What God knows He determines, and what He determines He knows. This being so, those who God eternally and unmistakably knows as believers He chooses. Consequently, those who believe are those who He chooses or elects. There need be no before or after, no logical or chronological progression in His eternal knowledge, no decision to elect based on anything except for the carrying out of His eternal decree, which decree was always in place. Therefore, there is no need to 1) postulate an eternal covenant between the members of the Godhead, 2) propose a logical order in relation to whether God’s decisions followed one or the other, 3) ask the question whether or not election is based on foreknowledge or whether foreknowledge of one’s salvation is based on election. As God elects, from His eternal, present tense perspective, He also works out His sovereign purpose within the framework of history on a moment- by-moment basis. His eternal electing activity is applied throughout the progression of history, which He is controlling, and He does so in accord with the ability of men to believe (and without coercion) when the gospel message is clearly presented, when we perceive the free offer of eternal life as most valuable and beneficial to us, and when we are fully assured and convinced by His Spirit that what God has promised, He is able to perform (cf. Rom 4:21).

 

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you. The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

why did they hear? Proverbs 20:12 the hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them.

Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever, Amen.

People will take that through Jesus Christ we have peace with the Father but they do not consider that we don't Come to Christ except it be of the Father.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever Believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:

 

Hogwash. There is no Bible verse to back this. Election is always for Gods pleasure. God does not elect because He knows. God knows for He is GOD!! Foreknowing is NOT knowing as in leaning from man what man will do. God can not learn anything from us. God KNOWS for God is GOD.

God elects because of His pleasure to do so.

 

There's actually no comparison there. They only seem similar. First, the words are different. The word "from" is not the same as "before", not in meaning, and not in the Greek.

More important, if you look at the Greek, "from the foundation of the world" refers back to "the book of life of the lamb slain", not "slain". Look at the separation, or parsing of the Greek (noted by Olivetree's KJV, not my own personal interpretation):
[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] And all that dwell ---- upon the earth shall worship ---- him, whose names are not written ---- in the book of life of the Lamb slain ---- from the foundation of the world .


[/SIZE]

 

Lamb slain from the foundation of the World. I look at it, that he was purposed to die for his bride before he ever made man and before man ever fell. That God did not purpose Adam to fall but permitted the fall for his purpose. To be Glorified as the Savior. thats why he made him subject to vanity.

Chosen us in Him before the foundation of the World.

I look at this as legal but not Vital. When you were quickened by the Spirit then it was vital and you passed from death unto life. But that he predestinated to do that very thing.

Forknew, Elected, Predestinated, Called, Sanctified/Justified, Glorified.

I believe this is an order of things. also I believe the call is as in 2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, You Could put Saved before Called as in Eternal application. (I view some called and Saved in a time sense. as in preaching the gospel and water baptism.)

 

Yep. The question is: What comes first, belief, or the new birth.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

They did not say: If God regenerates you, you will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, because you are saved, and maybe your house will be too.[/QUOTE]

Acts 13:48 ........: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them the believe for there is no difference:

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

Because many physically dead have been brought to spiritual life before they became physically dead, while many who are spiritually dead cannot hear because of their dead spiritual ears even though their living physical ears can hear a whisper from the other room.

 

First of all, One must look at this contextually, He was addressing the Pharisees. and he was trying, (without success, of course) to prove to these people, who He really was, which was the Son of the Living God. and of course, because their eyes were blinded by God, they didn't see this. Why did God blind thier eyes? Because God wanted to fulfill Prophecy of Scripture. Had they believed Him, He would have never been put on the Cross.

For further help, I'll include some commentaries on the Scripture.

I hope this helps you in your study of the Word of God.

-TWD :wavey:

 

I'm talking about acutal dead person's responding to Christ, not metaphorically speaking. The physically dead can respond to Christ...but the spiritually dead cannot unless the Holy Spirit allows.

 

As someone who holds that God only exists now in our now...it would be hogwash. Please stop limiting God's omnipresence.

 

I would like to look at John 5:25-29 in 25 we have the physically living but spiritually dead. They are made alive spiritually but yet they physically die.

then in 28 He calls both of them from the Grave. the spiritually alive and spiritually dead's bodies or dust that are both in the graves.

My Point is God can speak to the Dead. How ever ya want to take it. Its his voice that makes them alive. or raises them from their state. He speaks it and it comes to pass. His voice is not trying to do anything it does it. The gospel preaching would be a witness of this in the spiritually alive. God voice is not done through a preacher to make one alive. if so then shut the window in your service if you have a grave yard out back. I thought I would throw that in there. .......BJS

 

Hello Blammo, your questions here have been excellenty dealt with already, but here's my version:

People can be "of God" as in "the elect of God", and they can be "of God" as in "Born of God". The word "of" generally indicates origin. So, if someone is elect of God, then their election orginates in God. If they are born of God, then their birth originates in God. Check out Rom 11:36 "For of him (origin), and through him (deliverer), and to him (receiver), are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

I think John, as agrees the commentators, clearly speaks of those that are "of God" as those that are BORN of God. He establishes it in the first chapter v13.

So then we look at the new birth to understand what it is to be "born of God". In the third chapter, John give a clear, undisputable account of the new birth. Unfortunately, most people read John Ch 3 this way:

Ye must be born again.....whosoever believeth in him shall have everlasting life.

From this understanding, they naturally assume that the way to be born again is to believe. But the part that they leave out in the elipse is really the most important part, and it's the left-out part that contains the answer to Nicodemus' question "how can a man be born when he is old?". Now lets put John 3 in context:

Ye must be born again, or esle you can't see...how to be born again?...the wind (pnuema, spirit) bloweth where it listeth (wishes, desires)...so is every man that is born of the spirit...and whosoever believeth should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now obviously that's not a complete exigesis but it'll do for the purpose here.

So we see that birth must preceed belief. Now you can find passages which seem, on the surface, to say th opposite, that you must believe to be born again. Acts 16 is one of the most popular "and they said to him believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved". So then how do we understand the Phillipian jailer in light of John 3? Well, we have to understand the individual elements of salvation, that includes election, regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification, conversion, repentance, faith, redemption, reconciliation, forgiveness, atonement, and many other facets that I can't immediately recall. But regardless of the entanglements of all those doctrines, always keep it simple and remember - BIRTH is FIRST in TIME (but not sequence, election, foreknowledge, and predestination obviously preceeds birth in time, having taken place in eternity).

So, who can believe? Those that are born of God, who are born by the Spirit. To say otherwise is to say that they believe because they believe, or, they don't believe because they don't believe, which fails to recognize the origin of belief.

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Based on what I said above, I was "of God" before I believed, being "elect of God" from eternity, and "born of God" by His Spirit in time, inabling me to believe.

I'm assuming that your basing your question of your understanding of the Lord's promise that all men would be drawn to him if he be lifted up. Well, it is clearly evident that the blindness of Israel was not removed after the cross, for Israel rejected the Apostles as they did the Lord, which the Lord himself said they would do. In fact, Israel completely (in a general sense) apostasized, and felt God's wrath in 70 a.d. Every single person is born blind and remains so unless God opens their eyes. The "all men" that were and are drawn to Christ after the cross refers to men of all nations and kinds. Check the context of the passage. What had happened? Lazarus had been resurrected, and some Gentiles, Greeks, had heard of the deed, for the news of it was spreading abroad. "They would see Jesus", and Jesus upon hearing this declared that all men would be drawn unto him if he be lifted up. And the prophecy was fulfilled, for the Gospel did spread throughout the "whole world" (so says scripture, but understand the context of that also - the scope does not include every single place in the world) after the resurrection of Christ.

Yes, I can show you verses that show that God causes blindness. Here's one: John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. And some others have been supplied in other posts.

But God does not HAVE to blind people in order for them to be reprobated to hell. People are born blind, cursed by their father Adam's sin. God has to do nothing but pass them over, leave them in their fallen state, He doesn't have to actively ensure their doom. Those references where we find God actively blinding people are speaking to specific purposes according to God's will, usually to aggrevate their rebellion, and to show His power over the flesh, as in the hardening of Pharoe for the purpose of spreading the fame of God's power throughout the world.

I think this is the longest post I've ever done and I hope it's been helpful. I will now return to my usual tactic of throwing "zingers" into the conversation here and there.

 

Blammo, this is the ONLY "of God". The others fall under this. Belief (faith) is what makes one "of God".