Trying to understand John 8:47

No, probly just got tired of being called "rabid Arminian!" :tear:

Let's pick out a few "lines," shall we. John 1:12 -- "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

John 3:16 -- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." You don't believe that God loved the world -- only the "elect?" And who does your wife now think "whosoever" is -- only the "elect?"

We could go on and on, of course, showing that you wife probly got a lot of help from you in order the "rediscover" those words. Better yet , just let her read this response. She was already on the right track.

skypair

 

Yes. Who do you think "whosoever" is -- the non-elect?

 

Those are great verses, Skypair. Dear to the heart of every Calvinist. I have often heard of this supposed contradiction with Calvinism, but so far no one has been able to show it.

Both verses clearly state that salvation is given to whoever believes or receives. That is what Calvinism teaches. God will save no one who doesn't believe; and God will save everyone who does believe.

 

The believer.

 

Hello Blammo,

Indeed. WHY? WHY? And why did they not believe? It tells us later in the chapter.

It is Christ that is saying this. It is not a Calvinist changing the order. It is Christ that says you must understand before you believe, not believe and then understand.

I guess your point is "in part". Yes, a Jew can be saved. But what one needs to see, is it is GOD that caused this blindness. It did not happen for one day, or a month, or a year. It has been place in them for 2000 years and counting. Now a Jew can be saved, But tis God that blinds the Jews minds, making it very very hard to understand and believe. In the last 2000 years, how many Jews have died, and not having the understanding to believe? I say it is countless millions. Why? It was GOD that place them in blinding minds.

Now then....If you know that God blinded the Jews minds, why can not God open the hearts of others? Does He have not that right? The Gentiles hearts are blind also because of the fall. Yet God opens the eyes of many unto salvation so that they will believe.

Elect means choosen. This does not always mean salvation. In the case of the Jews it was not salvation. All Jews just as all men must have faith in God. The nation was choosen by God to bring mankind the blessing. Though this nation God gave us His Word, and Christ. Though this nation we have a picture of who God is...with the Law given and all the things that went on in the temple. The blood of all the lambs in the OT was a picture of the blood of Gods Lamb in the NT. God used a nation to send us a way of salvation and to tell us about him. That He is HOLY. That He is in control of all things. That He will JUDGE. All the stories are pictures of who God is.

As to the ignored word "because"

Why?? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Notice in the same chapter these verses that place this in context..

Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Why? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Please find in the same chapter nearly the same words found in John 8...
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

This is not talking about salvation, but rather the power of God in our life.

I do not have a answer for this verse. Maybe others will help you. The word "marvel" is a good translation as far as I can tell. Yet there are to many other verse that would teach as I, and so I will have to say it is my lack of understanding on this verse, not that it sets new doctrine.

I will not address this verse for a few reasons.

The other verses are much like the ones above. There is a reason why...that being sin nature.

 

Yes, but don't you, by your own theology, say that "the believers" are "the elect". If believers are not the elect, then who are the elect, and who are the non-elect?

Now the passage does not say "whosoever (as in, any person) shall be saved", but it says "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish..."

So, I say again, who do you think the "whosoever" is? I say, the "elect", you say "the believer"; yet by any theological system, those terms are descriptions of the same people. The difference is the order. I say I believe because I am elect; and I assume that you say you are elect because you believe.

 

Hello Blammo,

I see you have fallen for the lies of the devil. The words "arbitrarily selected" is put forth by free-willers for they do not understand election. There is no need to guess why, for the Bible tells us why. This statement has been shown false many times and is rooted in man centered salvation.

It is offerd to all. Yet none come on their own. Tis God that choose. Mock all you want, but election is in the Bible, and election is BY GOD!

Indeed...and this can mean all will be saved...or all types of men. All types as in Jew, Greek, tall short..what have ya.

Then you have falled to address key passages. Ones I have posted and you overlooked. Christ saves only those that God the Father gives him. If you will study the book of John you will find these very words from Christ. This is NOT my words...BUT GODS!!

All men most have faith. The elect are not born saved, but must believe. Elction only removes the blindless so they can believe.

Why? because Some were not given the grace to be born in a place that preaches the good news? Why? God choose to have grace on some.

I agree

What do you mean by "sinners"? All mean are sinners. If it was the goal to save all men, God did not. What does this view do to the power of God?

Yes sir...you have fallen for it alright. This is pure lies from the free-willers


In Christ..James

 

I agree with

 

JArthur said "Elect means choosen. This does not always mean salvation." Lest any should think that JArthur and myself disagree over the term "elect", let me say that JA is absolutely correct, and that my use of "elect" in the post above was in the sense of being "elect unto salvation".

Israel was an "elect" nation. That means the nation was "chosen". It does not mean they were "elect unto salvation".

Within Israel, there was a "remnant" that God had reserved unto himself. They were "elect unto salvation", as are all believers, whether Jew or Gentile.

This truth is what shoots down the "Romans 9 is just about nations" theory. If it's just about nations, then who is this "remnant" in verse 27?

Now, back to "because". Blammo listed a lot of things that happens (or rather doesn't happen) because of unbelief. Super! But why didn't they believe? "because ye are not of God".

 

Calvinists,

Let's just set up a hypothetical. I'm clearly a lost person. A free will pastor preaches the gospel (1Cor 15:3-4) and I believe, I RECEIVE, I stand in my belief.

Question:

1) Am I "elect?" How would YOU know? (You can't know, can you?)

2) Suppose then that I didn't believe in Calvinism -- said Calvinists were "Sardis" of Rev 3 -- "have a name that liveth but art [largely] dead." "Elect" or not? (You still can't know, can you?) Am I speaking by the Spirit against Calvin or is Calvin speaking in the Spirit against me?

3) Suppose the free will preacher was right and my prayer to RECEIVE Christ was the way to salvation. I KNOW I am saved but where would that put you? In fact, I've received faith (evidence of my belief) because I received. What have you received? What's YOUR evidence?

My point is -- and others have made it for me -- that you can't KNOW till you die where God has destined you, whether heaven or hell. Is that the "assurance" you have? Perseverance toward God only knows (literally) what?! Is that what the Bible says?

Or does the Bible say that "whosoever (anybody) believes shall be saved?" You put your idea of "election" ahead of GOD'S promise of whosoever.

skypair

 

Romans: 8
"16": The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

"17": And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I guess as far as absolute knowledge goes, this is the best we have. I say ever how much knowledge you have is ever how much faith you have.

I have found this Scripture to be the strongest evidence we have anyway.

 

This hardly does damage to Pauls theology, for it was Paul that says this and it is his theology. Just how does this damage grace? Paul was not looking to be saved. Paul was going about killing believers. God saved him anyway. That was God's choice, not Paul's choice. It seems like this does damage to your non-election theology.


In Christ...James

 

removed post

 

Let me be clear. Christ came to save sinners. Pauls doctrine was the doctrine of grace. You said my doctrine does not jive with Pauls words, but in fact it was Pauls words that your quoted.


Your statement...

This thread was about "Trying to understand John 8:47" and the context WHY some do not understand and why. Free-willers say that all have the same chance. Pauls case only proves other wise. Paul was not looking for salvation, for Paul thought he was doing the work of God killing believers. Paul was given more grace then others...given understand by God..even though he was not looking for it. God MADE Paul understand. Where as...others not as bad as Paul...maybe going to church even....still does not understand..and God has not MADE then understand as He did Paul.

Grace is the doctrine of Paul. This is the doctrine I preach. Why Paul? Paul was a sinner. Why Paul? For by grace are we saved. God MADE Paul take notice of Him.

This is election 101


In Christ..James