Trying to understand John 8:47

[skypair]

My wife was a rabid arminian until she studied the book of John, line by line, letting it "lay flat" (just taking it for what it actually says). By the end of Chapter 12 she had converted to sovereignty and hasn't looked back to free will since.

No, probly just got tired of being called "rabid Arminian!" :tear:

Let's pick out a few "lines," shall we. John 1:12 -- "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

John 3:16 -- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." You don't believe that God loved the world -- only the "elect?" And who does your wife now think "whosoever" is -- only the "elect?"

We could go on and on, of course, showing that you wife probly got a lot of help from you in order the "rediscover" those words. Better yet , just let her read this response. She was already on the right track.

skypair

 

[J.D.]

And who does your wife now think "whosoever" is -- only the "elect?"

Yes. Who do you think "whosoever" is -- the non-elect?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Let's pick out a few "lines," shall we. John 1:12 -- "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

John 3:16 -- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." You don't believe that God loved the world -- only the "elect?" And who does your wife now think "whosoever" is -- only the "elect?"

Those are great verses, Skypair. Dear to the heart of every Calvinist. I have often heard of this supposed contradiction with Calvinism, but so far no one has been able to show it.

Both verses clearly state that salvation is given to whoever believes or receives. That is what Calvinism teaches. God will save no one who doesn't believe; and God will save everyone who does believe.

 

[Brother Bob]

The believer.

 

[Blammo]

The believer.

No, no, no, Brother Bob. The elect. (sarcasm followed by more... sarcasm)

For God so loved (those he arbitrarily selected before the foundation of the world), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (He arbitrarily selected before the foundation of the world, would be regenerated, so that they would be able to believe in him, so that they will never perish, but have eternal life)

It's a free gift, freely offered to all mankind, but only those who are born again will be able to receive it. (not the other way around) And, even though it is offered to all mankind, it is not sufficient for all mankind.

1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. ("the whole world" in this verse, actually means the elect. Therefore, it may also be read: And he is the propitiation for (the sins of the elect): and not for (the elect) only, but also for the sins of (the elect)).

(I thought I was going to have a discussion on John 8:47, but, instead I have learned: ALL of the gospel according to John teaches man must be saved before he will believe, even though belief seems to always precede salvation, it's the other way around.)

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ("any" and "all" in this verse are both to be understood as "the elect". Therefore, it may be read: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is (patiently waiting for the elect to be regenerated?!?), not willing that (the elect) should perish, but that (the elect) should come to repentance.)

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

The gospel is good news:

Christ died for your sins (if you are elect)
Christ came into the world to save sinners (if they are elect)

Romans 10:9-13 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If you were not arbitrarily selected before the foundation of the world, it is not exactly good news, is it? So, going into all the world preaching it to every creature doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it? Those on the "broadway" have no chance to ever believe it, they must be saved to believe it. (Not exactly good news for them, is it?) Were we commanded to go lie to those on the broadway?

Time to get ready for church. I hope everyone that shows up today is elect. It would be a waste of time for anybody else to come.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Blammo,

John 8:24-28 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Indeed. WHY? WHY? And why did they not believe? It tells us later in the chapter.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.<<<-----They believe the lies of the devil, other wise known as sin nature.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

It is Christ that is saying this. It is not a Calvinist changing the order. It is Christ that says you must understand before you believe, not believe and then understand.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I guess your point is "in part". Yes, a Jew can be saved. But what one needs to see, is it is GOD that caused this blindness. It did not happen for one day, or a month, or a year. It has been place in them for 2000 years and counting. Now a Jew can be saved, But tis God that blinds the Jews minds, making it very very hard to understand and believe. In the last 2000 years, how many Jews have died, and not having the understanding to believe? I say it is countless millions. Why? It was GOD that place them in blinding minds.

Now then....If you know that God blinded the Jews minds, why can not God open the hearts of others? Does He have not that right? The Gentiles hearts are blind also because of the fall. Yet God opens the eyes of many unto salvation so that they will believe.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Elect means choosen. This does not always mean salvation. In the case of the Jews it was not salvation. All Jews just as all men must have faith in God. The nation was choosen by God to bring mankind the blessing. Though this nation God gave us His Word, and Christ. Though this nation we have a picture of who God is...with the Law given and all the things that went on in the temple. The blood of all the lambs in the OT was a picture of the blood of Gods Lamb in the NT. God used a nation to send us a way of salvation and to tell us about him. That He is HOLY. That He is in control of all things. That He will JUDGE. All the stories are pictures of who God is.

As to the ignored word "because"

Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Why?? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Notice in the same chapter these verses that place this in context..

Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Matthew 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Why? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Please find in the same chapter nearly the same words found in John 8...
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

This is not talking about salvation, but rather the power of God in our life.

Mark 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

I do not have a answer for this verse. Maybe others will help you. The word "marvel" is a good translation as far as I can tell. Yet there are to many other verse that would teach as I, and so I will have to say it is my lack of understanding on this verse, not that it sets new doctrine.

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

I will not address this verse for a few reasons.

The other verses are much like the ones above. There is a reason why...that being sin nature.

 

[J.D.]

The believer.

Yes, but don't you, by your own theology, say that "the believers" are "the elect". If believers are not the elect, then who are the elect, and who are the non-elect?

Now the passage does not say "whosoever (as in, any person) shall be saved", but it says "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish..."

So, I say again, who do you think the "whosoever" is? I say, the "elect", you say "the believer"; yet by any theological system, those terms are descriptions of the same people. The difference is the order. I say I believe because I am elect; and I assume that you say you are elect because you believe.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Blammo,

For God so loved (those he arbitrarily selected before the foundation of the world), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (He arbitrarily selected before the foundation of the world, would be regenerated, so that they would be able to believe in him, so that they will never perish, but have eternal life)

I see you have fallen for the lies of the devil. The words "arbitrarily selected" is put forth by free-willers for they do not understand election. There is no need to guess why, for the Bible tells us why. This statement has been shown false many times and is rooted in man centered salvation.

It's a free gift, freely offered to all mankind, but only those who are born again will be able to receive it. (not the other way around) And, even though it is offered to all mankind, it is not sufficient for all mankind.

It is offerd to all. Yet none come on their own. Tis God that choose. Mock all you want, but election is in the Bible, and election is BY GOD!

1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. ("the whole world" in this verse, actually means the elect. Therefore, it may also be read: And he is the propitiation for (the sins of the elect): and not for (the elect) only, but also for the sins of (the elect)).

Indeed...and this can mean all will be saved...or all types of men. All types as in Jew, Greek, tall short..what have ya.

(I thought I was going to have a discussion on John 8:47, but, instead I have learned: ALL of the gospel according to John teaches man must be saved before he will believe, even though belief seems to always precede salvation, it's the other way around.)

Then you have falled to address key passages. Ones I have posted and you overlooked. Christ saves only those that God the Father gives him. If you will study the book of John you will find these very words from Christ. This is NOT my words...BUT GODS!!

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ("any" and "all" in this verse are both to be understood as "the elect". Therefore, it may be read: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is (patiently waiting for the elect to be regenerated?!?), not willing that (the elect) should perish, but that (the elect) should come to repentance.)

All men most have faith. The elect are not born saved, but must believe. Elction only removes the blindless so they can believe.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Why? because Some were not given the grace to be born in a place that preaches the good news? Why? God choose to have grace on some.

The gospel is good news:

I agree

Christ died for your sins (if you are elect)
Christ came into the world to save sinners (if they are elect)

What do you mean by "sinners"? All mean are sinners. If it was the goal to save all men, God did not. What does this view do to the power of God?

If you were not arbitrarily selected before the foundation of the world, it is not exactly good news, is it? So, going into all the world preaching it to every creature doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it? Those on the "broadway" have no chance to ever believe it, they must be saved to believe it. (Not exactly good news for them, is it?) Were we commanded to go lie to those on the broadway?

Yes sir...you have fallen for it alright. This is pure lies from the free-willers


In Christ..James

 

[Brother Bob]

So, I say again, who do you think the "whosoever" is? I say, the "elect", you say "the believer"; yet by any theological system, those terms are descriptions of the same people. The difference is the order. I say I believe because I am elect; and I assume that you say you are elect because you believe.

I agree with

 

[J.D.]

JArthur said "Elect means choosen. This does not always mean salvation." Lest any should think that JArthur and myself disagree over the term "elect", let me say that JA is absolutely correct, and that my use of "elect" in the post above was in the sense of being "elect unto salvation".

Israel was an "elect" nation. That means the nation was "chosen". It does not mean they were "elect unto salvation".

Within Israel, there was a "remnant" that God had reserved unto himself. They were "elect unto salvation", as are all believers, whether Jew or Gentile.

This truth is what shoots down the "Romans 9 is just about nations" theory. If it's just about nations, then who is this "remnant" in verse 27?

Now, back to "because". Blammo listed a lot of things that happens (or rather doesn't happen) because of unbelief. Super! But why didn't they believe? "because ye are not of God".

 

[skypair]

Calvinists,

Let's just set up a hypothetical. I'm clearly a lost person. A free will pastor preaches the gospel (1Cor 15:3-4) and I believe, I RECEIVE, I stand in my belief.

Question:

1) Am I "elect?" How would YOU know? (You can't know, can you?)

2) Suppose then that I didn't believe in Calvinism -- said Calvinists were "Sardis" of Rev 3 -- "have a name that liveth but art [largely] dead." "Elect" or not? (You still can't know, can you?) Am I speaking by the Spirit against Calvin or is Calvin speaking in the Spirit against me?

3) Suppose the free will preacher was right and my prayer to RECEIVE Christ was the way to salvation. I KNOW I am saved but where would that put you? In fact, I've received faith (evidence of my belief) because I received. What have you received? What's YOUR evidence?

My point is -- and others have made it for me -- that you can't KNOW till you die where God has destined you, whether heaven or hell. Is that the "assurance" you have? Perseverance toward God only knows (literally) what?! Is that what the Bible says?

Or does the Bible say that "whosoever (anybody) believes shall be saved?" You put your idea of "election" ahead of GOD'S promise of whosoever.

skypair

 

[Blammo]

What do you mean by "sinners"? All men are sinners. If it was the goal to save all men, God did not. What does this view do to the power of God?

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

It does nothing to the power of God. It may, however, do damage to some of your theology.

 

[Blammo]

Now, back to "because". Blammo listed a lot of things that happens (or rather doesn't happen) because of unbelief. Super! But why didn't they believe? "because ye are not of God".

I agree 100%

Is any one "of God" before they believe that Jesus is the Christ? Were you "of God" before you believed.

Please understand, I realize why these proud Israelites could not believe. It was prophesied. (Isaiah, right?) My questions are: Was this a temporary blindness until after the cross? Or, is this proof that all who don't believe are being blinded by God to keep them from getting saved?

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

I'm going to show three verses that seem to suggest the blindness was not caused by God, though He did allow it.

Ezekiel 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Can you share a verse that shows God as the cause of the blindness?

 

[Brother Bob]

Romans: 8
"16": The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

"17": And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I guess as far as absolute knowledge goes, this is the best we have. I say ever how much knowledge you have is ever how much faith you have.

I have found this Scripture to be the strongest evidence we have anyway.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I agree 100%

Is any one "of God" before they believe that Jesus is the Christ? Were you "of God" before you believed.

Please understand, I realize why these proud Israelites could not believe. It was prophesied. (Isaiah, right?) My questions are: Was this a temporary blindness until after the cross? Or, is this proof that all who don't believe are being blinded by God to keep them from getting saved?

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

I'm going to show three verses that seem to suggest the blindness was not caused by God, though He did allow it.

Ezekiel 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Can you share a verse that shows God as the cause of the blindness?[/quote]

Mark 4:11. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12. That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

 

[Jarthur001]

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

It does nothing to the power of God. It may, however, do damage to some of your theology.

This hardly does damage to Pauls theology, for it was Paul that says this and it is his theology. Just how does this damage grace? Paul was not looking to be saved. Paul was going about killing believers. God saved him anyway. That was God's choice, not Paul's choice. It seems like this does damage to your non-election theology.


In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

removed post

 

[Blammo]

This hardly does damage to Pauls theology, for it was Paul that says this and it is his theology. Just how does this damage grace? Paul was not looking to be saved. Paul was going about killing believers. God saved him anyway. That was God's choice, not Paul's choice. It seems like this does damage to your non-election theology.


In Christ...James

I didn't say it does damage to Paul's theology, did I? What kind of a game are you trying to play?

You seemed to take issue with "Christ came into the world to save sinners", so I was showing you who said it. You were the one who said:

"What do you mean by "sinners"? All men are sinners. If it was the goal to save all men, God did not. What does this view do to the power of God?"

Now your answer to that is to accuse me of not accepting what Paul said? That's nice. Why don't you go play with someone else? I am trying to learn something here. Twisting my words around to suggest I don't believe the Bible is not going to help me understand what you believe.

 

[Blammo]

Can you share a verse that shows God as the cause of the blindness?[/quote]

Mark 4:11. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12. That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

This he said unto the twelve. (I wonder if Judas understood the parables?)

Anyway, the verse does not show God as the cause of the blindness. It only shows that he gave unto some to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. The blindness was already there.

 

[Jarthur001]

I didn't say it does damage to Paul's theology, did I? What kind of a game are you trying to play?

You seemed to take issue with "Christ came into the world to save sinners", so I was showing you who said it. You were the one who said:

"What do you mean by "sinners"? All men are sinners. If it was the goal to save all men, God did not. What does this view do to the power of God?"

Now your answer to that is to accuse me of not accepting what Paul said? That's nice. Why don't you go play with someone else? I am trying to learn something here. Twisting my words around to suggest I don't believe the Bible is not going to help me understand what you believe.

Let me be clear. Christ came to save sinners. Pauls doctrine was the doctrine of grace. You said my doctrine does not jive with Pauls words, but in fact it was Pauls words that your quoted.


Your statement...

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

It does nothing to the power of God. It may, however, do damage to some of your theology.

This thread was about "Trying to understand John 8:47" and the context WHY some do not understand and why. Free-willers say that all have the same chance. Pauls case only proves other wise. Paul was not looking for salvation, for Paul thought he was doing the work of God killing believers. Paul was given more grace then others...given understand by God..even though he was not looking for it. God MADE Paul understand. Where as...others not as bad as Paul...maybe going to church even....still does not understand..and God has not MADE then understand as He did Paul.

Grace is the doctrine of Paul. This is the doctrine I preach. Why Paul? Paul was a sinner. Why Paul? For by grace are we saved. God MADE Paul take notice of Him.

This is election 101


In Christ..James