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Trying To Understand KJVOnlyism

Logos1560

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When the KJV translators did their work, they have thousands of manuscripts from the Majority Text available and the other texts they had were used to compare to the Erasmus text which was a complete compilation. The KJV translators used Erasmus not only because of its accuracy, but because it was convenient to use a text where all of the mss were in one volume so instead of sifting through thousand of mss, they could walk through Erasmus text and then compare verse by verse his text to the Erasmus text as well as other completed texts.

Where is the documented evidence that shows that the KJV translators had available thousands of Greek manuscripts and that the KJV translators actually directly examined, compared, or collated those Greek manuscripts?

Some of the TR editors examined some Greek manuscripts, likely less than 100. The KJV translators' knowledge of Greek manuscripts likely depended upon the imperfectly presented information in the 1550 Stephanus edition based on 15 Greek manuscripts plus Erasmus' text.

Robert Estienne or Stephanus (1503-1559) edited some editions of the Greek New Testament. The first two editions [1546 and 1549] of Stephanus' Greek New Testament were a compound of the earlier editions by Erasmus and the earlier Complutensian Polyglot. His third edition (1550) is considered to be closer to the fourth and fifth editions of Erasmus' text (Metzger, Text of the New Testament, p. 104). The edition of Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible edited by H. B. Hackett asserted that “numerous instances occur in which Stephens deserts his former text and all his MSS to restore an Erasmian reading” (III, p. 2132). KJV-only advocate Laurence Vance also noted: "The third edition in 1550 had the distinction of being the first Greek New Testament with a critical apparatus and was the standard text in England until the time of the Revised Version" (Brief History of the English Bible Translations, p. 12). Edward Hills observed that Stephanus "placed in the margin of his 3rd edition of the Textus Receptus variant readings taken from 15 manuscripts, which he indicated by Greek numbers" (KJV Defended, p. 117). F. H. A. Scrivener indicated that Stephanus in his preface stated that his sources were sixteen, but that includes the printed Complutensian as one of them (Introduction, II, p. 189). Tregelles confirmed that “the various readings in the margin are from the Complutensian printed edition and from fifteen MSS” (Account, p. 30). Brian Walton observed that Stephanus “reckons sixteen Greek copies, which he collated, and out of them noted 2384 various readings, which he though fit to put in the margin of his edition” (Todd, Memoirs, II, p. 132). Edwin Bissell maintained that “in the edition of 1550, indeed, the first collection of variations in manuscripts was actually published, numbering two thousand one hundred and ninety-four” (Historic Origin, p. 128). The Cambridge History of the Bible pointed out that "Erasmus's Greek text was to remain the principal source" for that standard 1550 text of Stephanus (Vol. 2, p. 449). Tregelles affirmed that in Stephanus' 1550 folio edition "Erasmus was almost exclusively followed" (Account of the Printed Text, p. 30). The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Reformation noted that "through its [Erasmus's Greek text] being incorporated into the third edition of Robert Estienne's Greek Testament (1550) it influenced strongly the Greek Testament of Theodore de Beza" (Vol. 2, p. 57). Scrivener noted that his “own collation represents Stephen’s first edition as differing from his third in 797 places, of which 372 only are real various readings, the rest relating to accents, or being mere errata” (Introduction, II, p. 190, footnote 3).

Has anyone ever checked and confirmed the accuracy of all of these collations? Scrivener suggested that “the degree of accuracy attained in this collation may be estimated from the single instance of the Complutensian, a book printed in very clear type” (Introduction, II, p. 190). Scrivener then indicated that “forty-eight, or one in twelve [of Stephen’s citations of the Complutensian] are false” (p. 190, footnote 1). Tregelles maintained that “it may be said, that as the Complutensian text is often incorrectly cited in Stephen’s margin, we may conclude that the same thing is true of the MSS which were collated; for it would be remarkable if manuscripts were examined with greater accuracy than a printed book” (Account, p. 31). Smith’s Dictionary maintained that “while only 598 variants of the Complutensian are given, Mill calculates that 700 are omitted” (III, p. 2131). In a note, John Eadie commented: “The margin of the New Testament of Robert Stephens, 1550, is not of great value. He did not print all the various readings which his son Henry had gathered, nor did he fully collate all the sixteen MSS” (English Bible, II, p. 214). Samuel Newth maintained that the manuscripts used by Stephanus were “imperfectly collated” (Lectures, p. 86). Frederic Gardiner claimed that the collation in this edition “is neither complete nor accurate” (Principles, p. 5). Richard Porson (1759-1808) asserted that “Stephen’s margin is full of mistakes in the readings and numbers of the MSS” (Gentlemen’s Magazine, May, 1789, p. 386; Letters, p. 55). Porson maintained that Stephens “has favored us with only a part of the various readings, (probably less than half) and has frequently set down a reading as from one manuscript which belonged to another” (Letters, pp. 88-89). Charles Hudson reported that the “various readings collated by his son” . . . “are known to be given very inaccurately” (Greek and English Concordance, p. xiv).


Donald Brake wrote: “Beza’s text was essentially that of Stephanus. Any departures generally were not on textual authority but the arbitrary choice due to his theological persuasion” (Visual History of the English Bible, p. 233). Charles Butler claimed: “In his choice of readings, he [Beza] is accused of being influenced by his Calvinistic prejudices” ((Horae Biblicae, p. 108). Edwin Bissell asserted that “Beza employed the materials in his hands principally for exegetical purposes” (Historic Origin, p. 128). Tregelles maintained that Beza "valued readings more in proportion to their theological importance in his eyes than to the testimony by which they are upheld" (Account of Printed Text, p. 33). Likewise, Scrivener asserted that Beza “exhibits a tendency, not the less blameworthy because his extreme theological views would tempt him thereto, towards choosing that reading out of several which might best suit his preconceived opinions” (Introduction, II, p. 193).
 

Logos1560

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Where was the word of God before Tischendorf found the Codex Siniaticus? You have us believe that the 45 witnesses that constitute the Codex Siniaticus from which ALL MODERN VERSIONS are based on, which disagree with each other every 2 verses, that all disagree with the Majority Text and the Vaticanus, have entire chapters missing (for example, almost all of Genesis), are "the oldest and best" manuscripts: then how did the churches survive all these centuries without a Bible?

I have not recommended the Critical Greek text. I have not claimed that the Siniaticus and Vaticanus are the two best Greek manuscripts. You are evidently uninformed about what I believe or else you are misrepresenting my views.

All modern translations are not based on Siniaticus, Vaticanus, or Westcott/Hort text as you incorrectly claimed.

There are other English translations that are based on the same original language texts as the KJV such as the 1842 revision of the KJV by Baptists and other believers, the NKJV, the Modern KJV, the 1994 KJV21, the 1998 Third Millenium Bible, the 2000 KJ2000, etc.

There are also a couple English translations of the old Syriac Peshitta text that is on the KJV-only view's stream or line of good Bibles so how can you suggest that English translations of the Syriac Peshitta are based on the Critical Greek Text?
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
You skipped over or missed the point that Wilkinson's arguments and claims were incorrect and the point that KJV-only advocates kept hidden the fact that Wilkinson was a Seventh-Day Adventist.

Are you in effect admitting that KJV-only advocates rely on an incorrect guilt by association game when they repeatedly try to associate all modern translations with Westcott and Hort and with the Jehovah Witnesses' translation?

Applying typical KJV-only claims consistently and back to the KJV-only view or to the KJV is not actually using a guilty by association argument, but it is demonstrating that problem with KJV-only arguments. The advocating of a man-made KJV-only view relies upon the use of fallacies.

Where is your sound evidence that Westcott and Hort were supposedly Roman Catholics? Westcott and Hort were members of the Church of England and held basically the same Church of England doctrinal views as were held by the translators of the KJV.

I would assert that the same standards should be applied to all textual editors and translators including the translators of the KJV and oppose the use of divers measures or double standards.

Do you object to the fact that the makers of the KJV borrowed a number of renderings from the work of a Jesuit Roman Catholic Gregory Martin in the 1582 Rheims New Testament? The fact that the KJV borrowed renderings from a Roman Catholic translation in their corrupt stream of Bibles is a serious problem for the KJV-only view's two streams of Bibles argument.

Did the 7th Day Adventists of his day agree with Wilkinson? No they did not. Do they even today agree with him? No they do not.

There is a huge difference in using FEW quotes from Wilkinson that he quoted from someone else, where those who used SOME of his resources were quoting his findings on mss evidence, not his beliefs, and Westcott & Hort who CHANGED THE TEXTS to fit their beliefs, and even then, Protestant scholars were prohibited from viewing the codexes and only allowed 2 to view, one -Tregelles-which reproduced it from memory, and that's what modern versions are relying on as the "best and oldest mss"??

Just because W&H were MEMBERS of the Church of England doesn't mean they held to those beliefs (like many who claim to be Baptists and Calvinists when virtually every traditional Baptist in history has rejected Calvinism). Westcott & Hort's heresies have been well documented:

*I reject the word infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly." (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207).

"I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry (the worship of the Virgin Mary) bears witness." (same)

"The pure Romanish view seems to be nearer, and more likely to lead to the truth than the Evangelical." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 77)

Gregory Martin's complete version of the NT was not published until 1610, and was not used by the KJV translators. They had access to his OT works, and only consulted it in light of any agreement there may have been with older mss. Gregory's work was still largely based on the Majority Text which is still a far cry from the texts used by Westcott & Hort, which are what all of todays versions are based on. There is no evidence that the KJV adopted Martin's renderings, only that they agreed that his translations of Isaiah were accurate.

And it is not just KJVO that question the modern versions. Frank Logsdon was a scholar that was the assistant on the NASB committed who wrote to Lockman and renounced his position and apologized to God and everyone else by admitting that he was in error in endorsing not only the corrupt manuscripts that underlied the NASB, but also from helping to promote and even write the forward to the NASB. Logsdon admitted after reviewing all of the evidence OBJECTIVELY that the kJV was correct, and the MV's were wrong. Logsdon had no axe to grind, and was NOT KJVO until he reviewed the evidence for himself.

So it isn't just KJVO scholars that have came to these conclusions.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
I didn't bring up infallibility at all in my post.


One of the main things that KJVO representativess give for their belief in the KJV as the be-all and end-all of every Bible translations is its long life span and usage. They say it is due to the providence of the Lord. Well,to be consistent,if you believe that,then you would therefore have to believe that the Lord has caused the NIV to be the most popular and used Bible translation for almost 40 years.

I just gave you my answer. I am not in that crowd that believes the sales of the KJV prove it's veracity. I agree that's it's preservation is proof, but God has preserved ALL of the Bible through the Greek as well as Hebrew from their inception to the KJV for ENGLISH.

You are still trying to put me in that box even after I told you I don't agree with that as proof.
 

Rippon

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I am not in that crowd that believes the sales of the KJV prove it's veracity. I agree that's[sic] it's[sic] preservation is proof, but God has preserved ALL of the Bible through the Greek as well as Hebrew from their inception to the KJV for ENGLISH.

Too bad the Lord didn't preserve the Aramaic for translation in the KJV. You left that out.

When you say "the Bible" that is code for KJV. But in normal English it signifies a particular version.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
I have not recommended the Critical Greek text. I have not claimed that the Siniaticus and Vaticanus are the two best Greek manuscripts. You are evidently uninformed about what I believe or else you are misrepresenting my views.

All modern translations are not based on Siniaticus, Vaticanus, or Westcott/Hort text as you incorrectly claimed.

There are other English translations that are based on the same original language texts as the KJV such as the 1842 revision of the KJV by Baptists and other believers, the NKJV, the Modern KJV, the 1994 KJV21, the 1998 Third Millenium Bible, the 2000 KJ2000, etc.

There are also a couple English translations of the old Syriac Peshitta text that is on the KJV-only view's stream or line of good Bibles so how can you suggest that English translations of the Syriac Peshitta are based on the Critical Greek Text?

You just bootstrapped the Peshitta on to my claim that the modern versions rely on the critical text. All of the versions you just sited were attempts to update the KJV, and you know full well that's not what I mean by "Modern Versions". The entire line of Syriac versions hardly agree with any of the critical text at all and I never made that connection between the Syriac and the critical text as there are thousands of changes between the Peshitta and UBS4 and NA 27. My criticism is against the popular modern versions that are always compared against the KJV 1611 version (not edition) and used to attempt to correct the KJV.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
Too bad the Lord didn't preserve the Aramaic for translation in the KJV. You left that out.

When you say "the Bible" that is code for KJV. But in normal English it signifies a particular version.

The Aramaic was translated into Hebrew and Greek so no I didn't leave it out. And considering that English is my SECOND language, it's pretty foolish for you to presume that what I call THE Bible means a particular version in English, although yes, I do believe that the particular version IN ENGLISH is the KJV.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
I think you are in error and betray a serious bias by portraying the KJV as only being derived from Erasmus (or his MSS sources).


Since the later TR editions by Stephanus and Beza are derived from Erasmus' editions and are basically and mostly the same, how is it wrong to acknowledge that fact that even some KJV-only authors have admitted? Was it actually asserted that the KJV's New Testament was based solely on Erasmus' edition?


Hello franklin,


I've never made such a conclusion about Ersamus as you've stated. That's a straw man argument. As to Logos1560's bolded question the answer is 'no.'

Also, I don't have a bias about the KJV. I fact, I use it at times.

I don't worship the edition and it does in fact have some translational errors, it is not pure and perfect, it was not inspired like the original autographs were. KJVO's cannot prove any of these things, it's all pure conjecture and is completely arbitrary.

Now, can you prove any of this about the KJVO, that it is perfect, inspired, pure &c?

- Blessings
 

Rippon

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it's pretty foolish for you to presume that what I call THE Bible means a particular version in English, although yes, I do believe that the particular version IN ENGLISH is the KJV.

It was foolish of me to presume to clarify that when you use the term "the Bible" it means KJV. Gottcha'. "Although yes,I do believe that the particular version IN ENGLISH is the KJV."

You can argue up a storm in favor of what you say at one time,and then protest what you have said(in the same breath). Quite the talent you have there.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
It was foolish of me to presume to clarify that when you use the term "the Bible" it means KJV. Gottcha'. "Although yes,I do believe that the particular version IN ENGLISH is the KJV."

You can argue up a storm in favor of what you say at one time,and then protest what you have said(in the same breath). Quite the talent you have there.

This is because YOU ASSUMED that I said the KJV is THE ONLY Bible, which I did NOT say, I said it is the preserved word of God IN ENGLISH. You insert your own words into my statement by claiming that because I said IN ENGLISH, that I said ONLY IN ENGLISH. That misconception is YOUR FAULT, not mine.

It is obvious that I would not claim that AS YOU SAY because I was born reading ONLY Hebrew texts and could not even read English fluently until I was about 10 years old.

So if you are intending on controverting someone else's arguments, at least get your story straight.
 

robycop3

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Dr. James Ach:
Again, there is no solid proof that just because a few KJVO's sited Wilkinson that they relied on his work solely to support a KJVO position.

Have you ever read J. J. Ray's book, God Wrote Only One Bible ? If so, you should've seen the many verbatim quotes from Wilkinson's book, made without any acknowledgement of Wilkinson at all.

And again, a common KJVO point is the "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie", taken straight from Wilkinson/Ray, and applied to the KJV by KJVOs.

One little catch: Let's, for the sake of discussion, assume Psalm 12:7 is about word preservation. (Actually, it's about PEOPLE) WHERE DOES PSALM 12 MENTION THE KJV, or any other translation????????????????????????????

Now I realize that "thingie' didn't originate with Wilkinson, but Ray and Fuller brought it too the public eye thru modern media, and it quickly became applied to the KJV alone. you might deny that FACT until your keyboard wears out, but it will NOT go away.
 

robycop3

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Dr. James Ach:
I will give a thorough response to this later but you still have not shown any connection between where the KJVOs cited Wilkinson, and the specific portions of what they cited being wrong.

The proof lies in the three books:

Our Authorized Bible Vindicated (1930) by Wilkinson

God Wrote Only One Bible (1955) by Ray

Which Bible? (1970) by Fuller

READING THOSE BOOKS in that order will reveal the plagiarism of Ray and the dishonesty of Fuller. Maybe the plagiarism was legal, but it was still DISHONEST to not have acknowledged Wilkinson whatsoever. Same for Fuller's making sure that W's CULT AFFILIATION didn't appear in his book.

There's no denying that W was a prominent 7th day adventist. Union College's library is named after him, as are several other SDA edifices. Now, in fairness to him, he wrote his book in response to a squabble within his cult, not trying to found a new doctrine. But, during that squabble, Dr. W argued vehemently in favor of the infallibility of Ellen Gould White's writings! Now, if YOU want to trust the writings of such a man, go for it.

Again, just READ THOSE THREE BOOKS and compare them with more-recent KJVO hooey.

Nevertheless, what is ironic is that KJVO are accused of virtually plagiarizing Wilkinson, when the same argument isn't applied equally to KJV critics-like this entire article being copied almost verbatim from Doug Kutilek's website.

Then, why don't you make a complaint to Kutilek??????????

He IS alive, you know!
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
Dr. James Ach:

Have you ever read J. J. Ray's book, God Wrote Only One Bible ? If so, you should've seen the many verbatim quotes from Wilkinson's book, made without any acknowledgement of Wilkinson at all.

And again, a common KJVO point is the "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie", taken straight from Wilkinson/Ray, and applied to the KJV by KJVOs.

One little catch: Let's, for the sake of discussion, assume Psalm 12:7 is about word preservation. (Actually, it's about PEOPLE) WHERE DOES PSALM 12 MENTION THE KJV, or any other translation????????????????????????????

Now I realize that "thingie' didn't originate with Wilkinson, but Ray and Fuller brought it too the public eye thru modern media, and it quickly became applied to the KJV alone. you might deny that FACT until your keyboard wears out, but it will NOT go away.

So you are saying Psalm 12 was never in the Bible until Wilkinson, and that no one in the history of the New Testament church every quoted Psalm 12 as evidence of preservation. Gotcha:thumbsup:

Where does Psalm 12 mention ANY version, ANY addition ANY manuscript ANY codice, ANY uncial, ANY miniscule. In fact, Psalm 12 must really be meaningless since EVERY CURRENT TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE has a NAME associated with it's version. So in essence, according to your logic, any version or edition of the Bible is no Bible at all, and hence, we really don't even have a Bible at all since Psalm 12 excludes anything considered THE Bible but has a name attached to it to distinguish from other translations.

That is some of the most absurd logic I have ever heard.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
Dr. James Ach:

Have you ever read J. J. Ray's book, God Wrote Only One Bible ? If so, you should've seen the many verbatim quotes from Wilkinson's book, made without any acknowledgement of Wilkinson at all.

And again, a common KJVO point is the "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie", taken straight from Wilkinson/Ray, and applied to the KJV by KJVOs.

One little catch: Let's, for the sake of discussion, assume Psalm 12:7 is about word preservation. (Actually, it's about PEOPLE) WHERE DOES PSALM 12 MENTION THE KJV, or any other translation????????????????????????????

Now I realize that "thingie' didn't originate with Wilkinson, but Ray and Fuller brought it too the public eye thru modern media, and it quickly became applied to the KJV alone. you might deny that FACT until your keyboard wears out, but it will NOT go away.

Your analysis of Psalm 12 being "about people" is dead wrong.

"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

The antecedent to both 'thems" is the "words of the Lord", not any of the various poor, or evil people prior to verse 6.

And you completely contradict yourself in attempt to "pull the teeth" out of the argument that the "Psalm 12 thingie" existed before Wilkinson. YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS BASED ON THAT and yet you ADMIT it didn't come from Wilkinson. So you assume that Ray and others did not have access to the same materials that Wilkinson did? Where's your proof of that? Could it be that they investigated Wilkinson's claims, and then agreed with his SOURCES instead of relying on Wilkinson's interpretation of the evidence? You can't prove that did NOT. Your assumptions that they borrowed strictly from Wilkinson are just that, assumptions bases on similarities in content.
 

Yeshua1

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Your analysis of Psalm 12 being "about people" is dead wrong.

"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

The antecedent to both 'thems" is the "words of the Lord", not any of the various poor, or evil people prior to verse 6.

And you completely contradict yourself in attempt to "pull the teeth" out of the argument that the "Psalm 12 thingie" existed before Wilkinson. YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS BASED ON THAT and yet you ADMIT it didn't come from Wilkinson. So you assume that Ray and others did not have access to the same materials that Wilkinson did? Where's your proof of that? Could it be that they investigated Wilkinson's claims, and then agreed with his SOURCES instead of relying on Wilkinson's interpretation of the evidence? You can't prove that did NOT. Your assumptions that they borrowed strictly from Wilkinson are just that, assumptions bases on similarities in content.

Do you hold the Criticasl Greek text we have today is corrupt/invalid, and so any translations based off it are doomed to be corrupt/impure "satanic?"
That the TR is the best at the originals we can make?
 

robycop3

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So you are saying Psalm 12 was never in the Bible until Wilkinson,

"Whatta maroon!"
- Bugs Bunny

Never said any such thing, AND YOU KNOW IT! Your Riplingerite insertion of quotes that were never said WON'T WORK here.
I suggest you read what GOD said will become of ALL UNREPENTANT LIARS.

and that no one in the history of the New Testament church every quoted Psalm 12 as evidence of preservation. Gotcha:thumbsup:

Looxs as if the only thing you "got" is a bad case of ignoritis. The AV men themselves made the following marginal note for the 2nd them in Psalm 12:7...

"Heb. him, I. euery one of them."

Where does Psalm 12 mention ANY version, ANY addition ANY manuscript ANY codice, ANY uncial, ANY miniscule.

It DOESN'T, which makes applying it to the KJV alone quite stupid.

In fact, Psalm 12 must really be meaningless since EVERY CURRENT TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE has a NAME associated with it's version. So in essence, according to your logic, any version or edition of the Bible is no Bible at all, and hence, we really don't even have a Bible at all since Psalm 12 excludes anything considered THE Bible but has a name attached to it to distinguish from other translations.

I suggest you let your hits of Thorazine and lithium kick in before you post again.

That is some of the most absurd logic I have ever heard.

Look in the mirror, then fire your bong back up.
 

robycop3

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Your analysis of Psalm 12 being "about people" is dead wrong.

No, it's NOT. YOU are. My proof is in the AV mens' marginal note, as well as the correct interp of the hebrew as supplied by umpteen translators. YOUR "proof" is speculation, opinion, and guesswork.

"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

The antecedent to both 'thems" is the "words of the Lord", not any of the various poor, or evil people prior to verse 6.
MMRRPP! WRONG!

The antecedent of the 2nd them[/ui] is him or I, as supplied by the English translation of the Hebrew. The AV men, knowing the verse was about PEOPLE, plural, supplied them, as there's no appropriate plural pronoun in English that would give the correct definition. They supplied the literal translation of the Hebrew in their marginal note, which supplied the antecedent in question.

And you completely contradict yourself in attempt to "pull the teeth" out of the argument that the "Psalm 12 thingie" existed before Wilkinson. YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS BASED ON THAT and yet you ADMIT it didn't come from Wilkinson.
There's actually no definite source for that "thingie". However, it was brought into the public eye by Ray's and Fuller's copying of Wilkinson, and spread by those gents using the power of modern media. YOU CANNOT PROVE OTHERWISE.


So you assume that Ray and others did not have access to the same materials that Wilkinson did? Where's your proof of that? Could it be that they investigated Wilkinson's claims, and then agreed with his SOURCES instead of relying on Wilkinson's interpretation of the evidence? You can't prove that did NOT. Your assumptions that they borrowed strictly from Wilkinson are just that, assumptions bases on similarities in content.
MMRRPP! WRONG!

You musta gotten your doctorate degree from a box of Cracker Jacks.

All one need do is simply READ THE THREE BOOX in question to see ray and Fuller copied from Wilkinson VERBATIM. Now, I don't know, nor care, what else either ray or Fuller mighta read, but the PLAIN, EMPIRICAL PROOF that both copied from W is IN THEIR OWN BOOX, PLAIN AS THE NOSE ON YOUR FACE!

You call yourself a SCHOLAR? You also said you have those books. Apparently, you haven't READ them too much, or you'd not make such an asinine statement as above!

Speaking of which...your nose appears to hold quite a bit of egg....
 
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Logos1560

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Originally Posted by DrJamesAch

Where was the word of God before Tischendorf found the Codex Siniaticus? You have us believe that the 45 witnesses that constitute the Codex Siniaticus from which ALL MODERN VERSIONS are based on,

All of the versions you just sited were attempts to update the KJV, and you know full well that's not what I mean by "Modern Versions".

You stated "ALL" modern versions, which would include the NKJV. Many KJV-only advocates include the NKJV in their attacks on modern versions.

On what basis was I supposed to know that you did not include the NKJV and the other versions I listed in "ALL" modern versions?

Are you suggesting that you would accept the NKJV as being in the same line or stream of Bibles with the Geneva Bible and the KJV?
 

Logos1560

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1611 KJV and 1582 Rheims

Gregory Martin's complete version of the NT was not published until 1610, and was not used by the KJV translators. They had access to his OT works, and only consulted it in light of any agreement there may have been with older mss. Gregory's work was still largely based on the Majority Text which is still a far cry from the texts used by Westcott & Hort, which are what all of todays versions are based on. There is no evidence that the KJV adopted Martin's renderings, only that they agreed that his translations of Isaiah were accurate.

You are mistaken and misinformed. Martin's complete Rheims New Testament was printed in 1582, and the KJV translators had access to it. It was the Douay Old Testament portion that was not published until 1609-1610. The 1582 Rheims New Testament was translated from the Latin Vulgate of that day.

It is most likely that the KJV translators obtained their knowledge of the 1582 Rheims New Testament from a 1589 book by Puritan William Fulke which compared the Rheims N. T. side by side with the Bishops' Bible's N. T.

In his introduction to a 1911 facsimile reprint of the 1611, A. W. Pollard maintained that "probably every reviser of the New Testament for the edition of 1611" possessed a copy of Fulke's book that "was regarded as a standard work on the Protestant side" (p. 23). John Greider observed that “This work [by Fulke] was studied by the translators of the 1611 Bible” (English Bible Translations, p. 316). Peter Thuesen pointed out: “William Fulke’s popular 1589 annotated edition of the Rheims New Testament, though intended as an antidote to popery, in reality had served as the vehicle by which some of the Rhemists’ Latinisms entered the vocabulary of the King James Bible” (In Discordance, p. 62). David Norton noted that KJV translator William Branthwaite had a copy of “Fulke’s parallel edition of the Rheims and Bishops” in his personal library (KJB: Short History, p. 64). Norton also pointed out that the Bodleian Library in 1605 had a copy of Fulke’s edition of the Rheims and Bishops’ New Testaments (Ibid.). Even Gail Riplinger confirmed that the KJV translators had Fulke’s book with these verse comparisons (In Awe, p. 536).

J. R. Dore wrote: "A very considerable number of the Rhemish renderings, which they introduced for the first time, were adopted by the revisers of King James's Bible of 1611" (Old Bibles, p. 303). Butterworth observed that the Rheims version "recalled the thought of the [KJV] translators to the Latin structure of the sentences, which they sometimes preferred to the Greek for clarity's sake, thus reverting to the pattern of Wycliffe or the Coverdale Latin-English Testaments, and forsaking the foundation laid by Tyndale" (Literary Lineage of the KJV, p. 237). In an introductory article on "The English Bible" in The Interpeter's Bible, Allen Wikgren also noted that the Rheims "exerted a considerable influence upon the King James revision, in which many of its Latinisms were adopted" (Vol. I, p. 93). Herbert May confirmed that "some of its [the Rheims] phrases were used by the King James Version translators" (Our English Bible in the Making, p. 47). In his 1808 answer to the reprinting of Ward’s 1688 book Errata of the Protestant Bible, Edward Ryan referred to the KJV translators “adopting the Romish Version in very many instances” and to their making corrections “agreeably to the popish construction“ (Analysis, pp. 5-6). Benson Bobrick also observed; "From the Rheims New Testament, the translators saw fit to borrow a number of Latinate words" (Wide as the Waters, p. 244). Samuel Fisk also acknowledged that the Rheims had "an influence upon the King James Version" (Calvinistic Paths, p. 74). James Carleton noted: "One cannot but be struck by the large number of words which have come into the Authorized Version from the Vulgate through the medium of the Rhemish New Testament" (Part of Rheims in the Making of the English Bible, p. 32). In his book, Carleton gave charts or comparisons in which he gave the rendering of the early Bibles and then the different rendering of the Rheims and KJV.



W. F. Moulton stated: "The Rhemish Testament was not even named in the instructions furnished to the translators, but it has left its mark on every page of their work" (History of the English Bible, p. 207). Diarmaid MacCulloch and Elizabeth Solopova asserted that in the KJV “it was possible to see some of the readings of the Doua-Rheims version amid all the work of Tyndale, Coverdale and the Geneva translators” (Moore, Manifold Greatness, p. 38). Ward Allen maintained that "the Rheims New Testament furnished to the Synoptic Gospels and Epistles in the A. V. as many revised readings as any other version" (Translating the N. T. Epistles, p. xxv). Allen and Jacobs claimed that the KJV translators "in revising the text of the synoptic Gospels in the Bishops' Bible, owe about one-fourth of their revisions, each, to the Genevan and Rheims New Testaments" (Coming of the King James Gospels, p. 29). About 1 Peter 1:20, Allen noted: “The A. V. shows most markedly here the influence of the Rheims Bible, from which it adopts the verb in composition, the reference of the adverbial modifier to the predicate, the verb manifest, and the prepositional phrase for you” (Translating for King James, p. 18). Concerning 1 Peter 4:9, Allen suggested that “this translation in the A. V. joins the first part of the sentence from the Rheims Bible to the final phrase of the Protestant translations” (p. 30). Allen also observed: "At Col. 2:18, he [KJV translator John Bois] explains that the [KJV] translators were relying upon the example of the Rheims Bible" (pp. 10, 62-63). Thus, the first-hand testimony of a KJV translator acknowledged or confirmed that the KJV was influenced by the Rheims.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
No, it's NOT. YOU are. My proof is in the AV mens' marginal note, as well as the correct interp of the hebrew as supplied by umpteen translators. YOUR "proof" is speculation, opinion, and guesswork.

MMRRPP! WRONG!

The antecedent of the 2nd them[/ui] is him or I, as supplied by the English translation of the Hebrew. The AV men, knowing the verse was about PEOPLE, plural, supplied them, as there's no appropriate plural pronoun in English that would give the correct definition. They supplied the literal translation of the Hebrew in their marginal note, which supplied the antecedent in question.

There's actually no definite source for that "thingie". However, it was brought into the public eye by Ray's and Fuller's copying of Wilkinson, and spread by those gents using the power of modern media. YOU CANNOT PROVE OTHERWISE.


MMRRPP! WRONG!

You musta gotten your doctorate degree from a box of Cracker Jacks.

All one need do is simply READ THE THREE BOOX in question to see ray and Fuller copied from Wilkinson VERBATIM. Now, I don't know, nor care, what else either ray or Fuller mighta read, but the PLAIN, EMPIRICAL PROOF that both copied from W is IN THEIR OWN BOOX, PLAIN AS THE NOSE ON YOUR FACE!

You call yourself a SCHOLAR? You also said you have those books. Apparently, you haven't READ them too much, or you'd not make such an asinine statement as above!

Speaking of which...your nose appears to hold quite a bit of egg....


A marginal note in the AV is your evidence? Oh well that settles it then. READ THE NOTE AGAIN, it doesn't say anything about people.

Your analysis of the Hebrew text is about as intelligent as a 5th grader trying to interpret the US tax code. The rule of proximity would show that "words" has a natural antecedent which is "them". All through the Psalms, feminine plural noun synonyms for "WORDS of the Lord" are antecedents to masculine plural pronoun/prominal suffixes:

"'Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou has founded them for ever'" Psalm 119:152

The first 'them' is masculine plural, the second 'them' is masculine singular. "Words" in v6 are feminine plural. Silver, used as another for the word of GOd is masculine singular. The match in genders shows that what is preserved and what is kept is the word and words of God.

The "oppression for the poor" follows the same format as verse 1 after "help LORD" "FOR the godly man ceaseth" "FOR the oppression of the poor". V5 continues with the same thought of verse 1.

Furthermore, the King James isn't the only one that follows this translation. Even some of your favorites do as well.

"ASV 1901 - “Thou wilt keep THEM, O Jehovah, Thou wilt preserve THEM from this generation for ever"

You can't even quote the King James foot-note right, let alone know how to read a Hebrew text. You created a conclusion based on Doug Kutilek's butchering of the Hebrew, and then extrapolated your own interpretation of the footnote to mean something the foot note doesn't say.

I hear the band playing for you! Doo wop doo wop Robyflop:flower:
 
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