TULIP for Real Life

[TCassidy]

Limited Atonement , . . lies of the Devil

So, the fact that man is fallen in sin is a lie of the Devil?

Unconditional Election . . . lies of the Devil

That no lost person meets the criteria of Heavenly Perfection apart from being in Christ is a lie of the Devil?

Irresistible Grace . . . lies of the Devil

And the fact that the Grace of God always accomplishes exactly what God intended, IE, God Grace never fails, is a lie of the Devil.

Anyone who promotes this is being used to impune God.

Do not accuse fellow BB posters of impugning God. (And, by the way, it is spelled "impugn.")

 

[atpollard]

Man does not have free will. The lost are enslaved by sin.

Mark 8:34

I had expected the verse to say something about mankind or free will or sin.

• [Mark 8:34 NASB] 34 And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

Do you really believe that you have the power, prior to salvation, to stop being who you are (deny self), to die to your old ‘natural man’ flesh (take up your cross) and to obey the commandments of Christ (follow me)?
I could do NONE of these things without God First empowering me to do so. I would never have chosen this as a pre-salvation call to holiness. One might as well try to live according to the OT Law and be justified before God.

 

[steaver]

This TULIP argument either lives or dies in the Garden of Eden. You have to examine Adam and Eve. People believe Adam and Eve were perfect. They were not perfect for only God is perfect. They were vulnerable to temptations and deception, something God is not. God placed before Adam and Eve, life and death. The question is, did Adam and Eve have the freewill to make the choice? Or did God make the choice for them?

 

[atpollard]

This TULIP argument either lives or dies in the Garden of Eden. You have to examine Adam and Eve. People believe Adam and Eve were perfect. They were not perfect for only God is perfect. They were vulnerable to temptations and deception, something God is not. God placed before Adam and Eve, life and death. The question is, did Adam and Eve have the freewill to make the choice? Or did God make the choice for them?

Really? All of soteriology is to be found in the brief period of time before people needed a Savior because they had been made "very good" and had not yet sinned? To think I have been wasting all of my time reading the Gospels and Apostolic Letters when I just needed the first three chapters of Genesis!
[turning off the sarcasm now]

Let's take a serious examination of your claim:

• (T)Total Inability: Could Adam and Eve cover their own nakedness and undo their sin? No. The (T) stands confirmed.

• (U) Unconditional Election: Did Adam and eve earn God's grace through the merit of their faith or actions? No. They both hid. Adam blamed Eve and God for his own actions. Eve chose to believe the serpent over God and helped Adam to sin. There was no repentance recorded, only hiding and taking their punishment. The (U) stands confirmed.

• (L) Limited Atonement: There is little on atonement in the story. What is revealed is God made animal skins to cover the nakedness of the Adam and Eve. God did not clothe all mankind forever by his own hand. The promise within the curse on the serpent was for her (Eve's) seed [singular]. Both indicate a god who deals with individuals rather than corporately with everyone. There is more evidence FOR the (L) than AGAINST.

• (I) Irresistible Grace: When God called for Adam and Eve, they hid and wanted to stay away from God. Were they able to? No, they both were ultimately compelled to appear before God to receive both Judgement for sin and Mercy (they were not killed as was God's right) and Grace (God clothed them and gave them hope that the seed of the woman would fix things). The (I) stands confirmed.

• (P) Perseverance: Adam and Eve started out in a state of "very good". Were they able to persevere in that state? No, Adam and Eve sinned and lost their initial state of righteousness. If T-U-L-I-P stands or falls on the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden, then only the ability of man to Persevere falls. The (P) stands refuted. ... Fortunately, the seed of the woman did come and reclaim the righteousness lost by Adam in the Garden in a manner that means that it is no longer ours to keep or loose. So it is God's perseverance that sustains the chosen, not ours.

If you would like to go through the 5 Remonstrances and demonstrate how Adam and Eve in the Garden illustrate those 5 points, I would be fascinated to read your analysis.

 

[steaver]

Really? All of soteriology is to be found in the brief period of time before people needed a Savior because they had been made "very good" and had not yet sinned?

I believe all people, even Adam and Eve, needed a Savior before they ever existed. Otherwise, we would not read this....

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," (1 Pt 1:20)

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev 13:8)

 

[steaver]

• (T)Total Inability: Could Adam and Eve cover their own nakedness and undo their sin? No. The (T) stands confirmed.

I believe Total Inability stands for one not being able to respond to God. Correct? Was Adam able to respond to God after he sinned?

 

[steaver]

(U) Unconditional Election: Did Adam and eve earn God's grace through the merit of their faith or actions? No. They both hid. Adam blamed Eve and God for his own actions. Eve chose to believe the serpent over God and helped Adam to sin. There was no repentance recorded, only hiding and taking their punishment. The (U) stands confirmed.

There was no faith recorded either. And what was their punishment? Blocked from the tree of life and spiritual and physical death. Which brings us back to the T. How was Adam able to respond to God after he spiritually died?

 

[steaver]

(L) Limited Atonement: There is little on atonement in the story. What is revealed is God made animal skins to cover the nakedness of the Adam and Eve. God did not clothe all mankind forever by his own hand. The promise within the curse on the serpent was for her (Eve's) seed [singular]. Both indicate a god who deals with individuals rather than corporately with everyone. There is more evidence FOR the (L) than AGAINST.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Rom 5:12)

Was not all mankind found in Adam and Eve? Would it not follow that God was temporarily covering all of mankind also?

 

[steaver]

• (I) Irresistible Grace: When God called for Adam and Eve, they hid and wanted to stay away from God. Were they able to? No, they both were ultimately compelled to appear before God to receive both Judgement for sin and Mercy (they were not killed as was God's right) and Grace (God clothed them and gave them hope that the seed of the woman would fix things). The (I) stands confirmed.

So they were born-again that moment?

 

[steaver]

(P) Perseverance: Adam and Eve started out in a state of "very good". Were they able to persevere in that state? No, Adam and Eve sinned and lost their initial state of righteousness. If T-U-L-I-P stands or falls on the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden, then only the ability of man to Persevere falls. The (P) stands refuted. ... Fortunately, the seed of the woman did come and reclaim the righteousness lost by Adam in the Garden in a manner that means that it is no longer ours to keep or loose. So it is God's perseverance that sustains the chosen, not ours

P would have to begin with Adam, if it be that TULIP is found in Adam.

 

[atpollard]

I believe Total Inability stands for one not being able to respond to God. Correct?

"In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be. You might think of an archfiend of history such as Adolf Hitler and say there was absolutely no redeeming virtue in the man, but I suspect that he had some affection for his mother. As wicked as Hitler was, we can still conceive of ways in which he could have been even more wicked than he actually was. So the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin." - Legonier Ministries

"Total depravity (also called total inability or total corruption) is a biblical doctrine closely linked with the doctrine of original sin as formalized by Augustine and advocated in many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, especially in Calvinism. The doctrine understands the Bible to teach that, as a consequence of the the Fall of man, every person born into the world is morally corrupt, enslaved to sin and is, apart from the grace of God, utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to turn to Christ in faith for salvation.

The doctrine of total inability teaches that people are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, as he requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are destructive to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passions, and will." - Theopedia

• "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (Ephesians 2:1-3)

Total Inability:
"In John 6 Jesus said that, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him... This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." Apart from Christ, man is foolish, dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1-3), enslaved to sin (Romans 6:17), and following the spirit of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2). "A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14). His wisdom is demonic and earthly (James 3:15). He cannot hear the word of Christ and God (John 8:43, 47). He is not able to subject his flesh to the law of God (Romans 8:7-8). Just as people cannot change the color of their skin, those who are accustomed to doing evil cannot do good (Jeremiah 13:23). Every intention of the thoughts of man's heart are only evil continually (Genesis 6:5). The intention of man's heart is evil from his youth (Genesis 8:21). Surely we were brought forth in iniquity, and in sin were we conceived (Psalms 51:5)!" - Theopedia

Was Adam able to respond to God after he sinned?

No. Adam hid until God drew (John 6:44) Adam to Himself ... then Adam blamed God for everything.

• [Genesis 3:8-12 NASB] 8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" 10 He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself." 11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 12 The man said, "The woman whom You gave [to be] with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."

 

[steaver]

Steaver: Was Adam able to respond to God after he sinned?

No. Adam hid until God drew (John 6:44) Adam to Himself ... then Adam blamed God for everything.

TULIP theology teaches that a person must be born again (given a new heart) IN ORDER FOR that person to be drawn by God. Correct? It does not follow that Adam would then blame God for everything, showing no remorse for what he had done, seeing God had given him a new heart that the Scripture declares rejoices in everything God.

 

[TCassidy]

Correct?

No.

 

[steaver]

No.

Interesting. So TULIP does allow a person to be drawn to the things of God without having a new heart? The new heart then is simply God making the ultimate choice for them to believe in that which their dead heart is leaning towards believing.

 

[TCassidy]

So TULIP does allow a person to be drawn to the things of God without having a new heart?

The Gospel Call is universal. It calls all who hear it. But the efficacious drawing of the Father to the Son is according to His good pleasure. It is that effectual calling that results in regeneration which produces faith, repentance, and obedience.

The new heart then is simply God making the ultimate choice for them to believe in that which their dead heart is leaning towards believing.

No. Their dead heart is positively inclined away from God. God first removes the old, dead, heart of stone and gives them a new, living, heart of faith.

 

[steaver]

No. Their dead heart is positively inclined away from God. God first removes the old, dead, heart of stone and gives them a new, living, heart of faith.

Yes, that is what i said and you said, "No"......."TULIP theology teaches that a person must be born again (given a new heart) IN ORDER FOR that person to be drawn by God. Correct?"

 

[TCassidy]

Yes, that is what i said and you said, "No"......."TULIP theology teaches that a person must be born again (given a new heart) IN ORDER FOR that person to be drawn by God. Correct?"

No, what you said was "So TULIP does allow a person to be drawn to the things of God without having a new heart?"

"The new heart then is simply God making the ultimate choice for them to believe in that which their dead heart is leaning towards believing."

 

[atpollard]

Yes, that is what i said and you said, "No"......."TULIP theology teaches that a person must be born again (given a new heart) IN ORDER FOR that person to be drawn by God. Correct?"

The way you have worded your statement is claiming limitations on the power of God, not limitations on the willingness of man.

God has the power/ability to draw anyone (that omnipotence thing).
No 'natural man' is willing to be drawn (that Romans 3:10 thing).
God also transforms (faith and belief and a new heart) those he chooses to draw to Jesus (that Ephesians 2:1-10 and John 6:44 thing).

 

[steaver]

No, what you said was "So TULIP does allow a person to be drawn to the things of God without having a new heart?"

That is not what you said "No" to. Check the order of my qoutes and my questions of "Correct?"

TULIP theology teaches that a person must be born again (given a new heart) IN ORDER FOR that person to be drawn by God. Correct? It does not follow that Adam would then blame God for everything, showing no remorse for what he had done, seeing God had given him a new heart that the Scripture declares rejoices in everything God.

I then made an observation as to why this does not fit Adam.....

"It does not follow that Adam would then blame God for everything, showing no remorse for what he had done, seeing God had given him a new heart that the Scripture declares rejoices in everything God."

You are conflating multiple post.

 

[steaver]

God has the power/ability to draw anyone (that omnipotence thing).
No 'natural man' is willing to be drawn (that Romans 3:10 thing).
God also transforms (faith and belief and a new heart) those he chooses to draw to Jesus (that Ephesians 2:1-10 and John 6:44 thing).

Yes, I have been agreeing that under TULIP's theology the new heart must take place first, before the person can respond to God. As I said...."It does not follow that Adam would then blame God for everything, showing no remorse for what he had done, seeing God had given him a new heart that the Scripture declares rejoices in everything God".