He wants to have enshrined the myth of real and full free will salvation!
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TULIP for Real Life
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Are you describing we calvinists as being Gnats?
Again, you fail to make a distinction between the Gospel Call and the Drawing of the Father.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
As I see it, that's the problem you continually seem to be having with what the Bible teaches about God's grace..."logic" doesn't apply, because God's word does not speak to an unconverted man's natural, carnal understanding; It is addressed to the "hearing" of faith ( Galatians 3:2 ) in those to whom the Spirit of God has come to reside.
Even then, it takes a long time for His words to sink in, because God's children tend to be dull of "hearing" ( Hebrews 5:11-14 ).
Keep reading sir, I have faith that if you truly are His child, He will show you everything there is to show you... in His time.
There's a reason people say that His grace is amazing.
Did you get your ticket?
Have you truly believed on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins?
Did you "hear" the Gospel of your salvation?
Then you're a life time member and your ticket cannot be revoked.
Once the ticket was handed to you, God honors it as only God can...with full rights and privileges, bought and paid for by the blood of His Son.
You cannot give it back, because:
" For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance." ( Romans 11:29 )
With respect, I think it might be more correct to say that, "God elects you in eternity past ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), but you did not become aware of it until a later date ( Ephesians 1:13 ), just like we elect the President to the office in November, but he doesn't become ( start to look like ) President until January."
May He bless you both in the full knowledge of His grace and mercy.
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This appears to be an oxymoron. Please explain. What do you mean it was not a free choice?
Ok, allow me to reword it so you can answer.
Can the dead heart respond to God's drawing or not?
Not sure where you are going with this. Are you saying Adam was or wasn't totally depraved when he responded to God in the garden after he sinned?
Choice was admittedly poor wording, and I think I explained it well enough, but let me rephrase: Adam acted according to his will, but it was not a free will. Being corrupted, he was lifted up in pride, no longer content to be a little lower than the angels, he desired to be like God, and he believed that he would be. He didn't choose to believe that any more than you choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 4.
Adam could do no other thing than to eat the fruit.
My point wasn't about the part in the narrative, but Adam was totally depraved.
What was his response to God? It was to run and hide. Men love darkness more than light, because their deeds are evil. It was God's grace that brought Adam and Eve to face the commandment and give account. There was nothing on the part of Adam and Eve. God preached to them. God made the promise. God brought the sacrifice. God covered them.
But total depravity doesn't mean that man doesn't love the light at all. It means he loves darkness more, and left to himself will always choose to remain in the dark. It doesn't mean that he doesn't love God at all, it means he loves himself more, and, left to himself will do his own will.
Being corrupted, he can do no other. He might shoot the arrow in the general direction, but will always miss the mark.
Ever try to run a corrupted file on your computer?
And on Judgment Day, when this veil of flesh is taken away, we will see a heart that does not love God, and cannot love Him, and will be justly confined to hell.
That still makes no sense. You are saying Adam's will was corrupt before he actually acted upon the temptation and partook of the fruit by action. Sounds like "the devil made me do it, but I wanted to"
Sure hope not!
Adam was created with the potential to Sin, and he exercised his free will to commit sin against expessed words of god. IF the man who had no sin nature and was in paradise and spoke to God gace to face still sinned, what hope that any can free will themselves to be saved?
Do you mean the Gospel call or the Drawing of the Father?
Adam was corrupt, therefore, his desire was to be as God. That was also the condemnation of the Devil.
Your hang up is that you don't recognize an inordinate desire as an evil itself, as if Adam could wish to do evil, but is blameless and pure as long as one doesn't act on it. You call the desire itself temptation. It's interesting that when Christ was tempted of the Devil, it is not written that Christ lusted after food. It is written that He hungered. There is a difference between hunger and a lust for food, to feel the deep need for nourishment, and an inordinate desire for the pleasures that accompany eating.
But I digress.
You define freedom as the right or power to do good or evil. Will anyone say God is not free? Will any say God is not all powerful? (Some noncalvinists assert as much with the notion of open theism, but I mean will any rational individual say that God is not all powerful?)
And yet, God cannot lie. It is impossible. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
But how could Christ be tempted as we are, you might ask. Your lusts are not the temptations. And to understand a real temptation, you would need to know the temptation to steal bread if you've gone without eating for nearly six weeks, or to deny Christ when the lives of your children hang in the balance.
So, stop thinking about the capacity to do evil as something that defines free will. It doesn't. There is no free will. One is free when his desire is to do only good, and he is given the power to do so.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Paul described even righteousness as slavery.
[Romans 6:16 NASB] 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Drawing of the Father.
The Drawing of the Father is efficacious. God gives a new heart which is able to respond to the Drawing of the Father.
I have to disagree and I am not so sure your Calvinist brothers would agree with you. I believe God made Adam having no corruption, "Very Good". Adam did not become corrupt (spiritually dead) until he partook of the forbidden fruit and did eat. Adam did not become corrupt just because he pondered between two paths, he became corrupt when he did eat of the fruit. Which is what God said to Adam, God did not say because you thought about disobeying Me......no......."Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"
That is what i thought Calvinist believed. So you would believe that God gave Adam a new heart and that is why Adam was able to believe it was God speaking to him?
Which is exactly what I said in a previous post. He was made good.
Now, a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, and Adam was made good. But he wasn't made incorruptible. Before Adam could perform a sinful act, corruption had to have crept in.
So, in direct contradiction to the words of Christ, you will assert that a good tree can bring forth evil fruit.
That's not what I said.
A sinful act stems from a sinful heart. Always. Before there is an act, there is a will. As you cited above:
"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife..."
In other words, because you thought about disobeying Me.
Anyway, you won't be convinced, and interactions with you are turning out to be defined by the constant need to correct your hearing.
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