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Two good arguments for a Pretrib Rapture

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OldRegular

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Sam Storms just put out his Amil book The Kingdom Come. I've only read the first chapter. But it might be what the doctor ordered. He also did a good blog post at TGC that might be interesting for some folk since he studied at Dallas w/ the big names like Walvoord, Ryrie, and Pentecost.

I was tempted beyond my ability to resist when I read blog so I posted some as I knew many pre-rib-dispensationalists would never go there:

Questioning Premillennialism

Upon graduating from The University of Oklahoma in 1973, I began my studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. My professors were a Who's Who of dispensational premillennialism: John Walvoord (then president of DTS), Charles Ryrie (author of Dispensationalism Today and The Ryrie Study Bible), and J. Dwight Pentecost (author of perhaps the most influential text on the subject at that time, Things to Come), just to mention the more well-known. Anything other than the dispensational premillennial perspective as found in Lewis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology and taught in the many DTS classrooms was considered less than evangelical. The only thing I recall hearing about amillennialism, for example, was how dangerous it was given the fact that it was popular among theological liberals who didn't take the Bible very seriously.

Robert Gundry's book The Church and the Tribulation was released in 1973, the same year I began my studies at Dallas, and it fell like a theological atom bomb on the campus. Everyone was reading it, and more than a few were being drawn to its post-tribulational perspective on the timing of the rapture. Debates in the classroom, cafeteria, and elsewhere were abundant and quite heated. Someone obtained a copy of Daniel Fuller's PhD dissertation in which he critiqued the hermeneutics of dispensationalism, and more gasoline was thrown on the fire.

Upon my graduation from Dallas Seminary in 1977 I immediately immersed myself in a study of all aspects and schools of eschatological thought. Over the next few years, the two most influential and persuasive volumes I read were The Presence of the Future: The Eschatology of Biblical Realism by George Eldon Ladd (himself a historic premillennialist), and Anthony Hoekema's book The Bible and the Future (Hoekema was an amillennialist). It is worth noting here that the distinction between Israel and the church, on which dispensationalism is largely based, could not withstand either Ladd or Hoekema's relentless assault.

My Unpardonable Sin

It wasn't long before Ladd, Hoekema, and Gundry, together with a few others, had persuaded me that there is no basis in Scripture for a pre-tribulational rapture of the church. That was, in the eyes of many, bad enough. Indeed, I distinctly recall the horror (trust me, "horror" is by no means an exaggerated term to describe the reaction I received) in my church when I made it known that I could no longer embrace a pre-tribulation rapture. More than a few were convinced that I was well on my way into theological liberalism! But when in the early 1980s I abandoned premillennialism in all its forms, public reaction was such that you would have sworn I had committed the unpardonable sin. I'm not suggesting that all or even the majority of dispensational premillennialists feel this way today (I hope and pray that few do), but the atmosphere in the 1970s and 1980s was something less than amicable for those who departed from the accepted eschatological faith.

My departure from premillennialism and embrace of amillennialism was gradual and came as a result of two discoveries as I studied Scripture. First, I devoted myself to a thorough examination of what the New Testament said would occur at the time of Christ's second coming (or parousia). What I found was a consistent witness concerning what would either end or begin as a result of our Lord's return to the earth. Sin in the lives of God's people, corruption of the natural creation, and the experience of physical death would terminate upon the appearance of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, the resurrection of the body, the final judgment, and the inauguration of the New Heavens and New Earth would ensue. But why is this a problem for premillennialism? Good question.

Scriptural Challenges for Premillenialists

If you are a premillennialist, whether dispensational or not, there are several things with which you must reckon:

• You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ's second coming.

• You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ's second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the Fall of man.

• You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

So what's wrong with believing these things, asks the premillennialist? What's wrong is that these many things that premillennialists must believe (because of the way they interpret Scripture), the NT explicitly denies. In other words, in my study of the second coming of Christ I discovered that, contrary to what premillennialism requires us to believe, death is defeated and swallowed up in victory at the parousia, the natural creation is set free from its bondage to corruption at the parousia, the New Heavens and the New Earth are introduced immediately following the parousia, all opportunity to receive Christ as savior terminates at the parousia, and both the final resurrection and eternal judgment of unbelievers will occur at the time of the parousia. Simply put, the NT portrayals of the second coming of Christ forced me to conclude that a millennial age, subsequent to Christ's return, of the sort proposed by premillennialism was impossible.

The second factor that turned me from premillennialism to amillennialism was a study of Revelation 20, the text cited by all premillennialists in support of their theory. Contrary to what I had been taught and long believed, I came to see Revelation 20 as a strong and immovable support for the amillennial perspective.

It is remarkable what the unbiased study of Scripture can accomplish!

The book is available at Christianbook.com for $20.
 
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blessedwife318

Well-Known Member
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I remember reading his post on TGC. It was soon after my then fiance and I discovered that we had different eschatological view points. So I started reading up on his views. I have never been in the pre-trib camp but I have always been pre-mill. So it has been quite the undertaking for me to learn about A-mill. I'm still hoping to get his book at some point in the future and read it.
 

RLBosley

Active Member
I agree that those things that Storms point out are problems for the pre-mill camp. I think he may be overstating his case slightly when he says that the NT "explicitly denies" them but he is right that the NT does appear to, at least, make them highly unlikely. However I ust can't get around Rev 20. It baffles me that he believes "Revelation 20 as a strong and immovable support for the amillennial perspective." I just can't see it! I've listened to Voddie Baucham and others (I just remember Voddie since he was the most recent) talk about Rev 20 and I just don't get how they arrive at that interpretation.

If we didn't have Revelation 20 I'd be amill no question, but Rev 20 forces me into Historic Premill.
 

Greektim

Well-Known Member
I agree that those things that Storms point out are problems for the pre-mill camp. I think he may be overstating his case slightly when he says that the NT "explicitly denies" them but he is right that the NT does appear to, at least, make them highly unlikely. However I ust can't get around Rev 20. It baffles me that he believes "Revelation 20 as a strong and immovable support for the amillennial perspective." I just can't see it! I've listened to Voddie Baucham and others (I just remember Voddie since he was the most recent) talk about Rev 20 and I just don't get how they arrive at that interpretation.

If we didn't have Revelation 20 I'd be amill no question, but Rev 20 forces me into Historic Premill.
I would highly recommend that you read more on Rev 20 on alternate views then.

Criswell Theological Review put out its Fall 2013 issues about various interpretations of Rev 20 entitled "The Meaning of the Millennium". It covers all the views. I would be more than happy to send you some, especially G. K. Beale's article which is an amill approach (actually, if you started at SEBTS, you should have access to that online anyhow). He is one of my favorite NT scholars and biblical theologians, so I am biased toward him. But I say give it a try. You might like it ;) I sure did.
 
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RLBosley

Active Member
I would highly recommend that you read more on Rev 20 on alternate views then.

Criswell Theological Review put out its Fall 2013 issues about various interpretations of Rev 20 entitled "The Meaning of the Millennium". It covers all the views. I would be more than happy to send you some, especially G. K. Beale's article which is an amill approach (actually, if you started at SEBTS, you should have access to that online anyhow). He is one of my favorite NT scholars and biblical theologians, so I am biased toward him. But I say give it a try. You might like it ;) I sure did.

Sounds good. Anything you have I'll read. Send away. Sadly my application did not get processed in time to start with SEBTS this semester, so I'm looking at starting in the summer.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
I agree that those things that Storms point out are problems for the pre-mill camp. I think he may be overstating his case slightly when he says that the NT "explicitly denies" them but he is right that the NT does appear to, at least, make them highly unlikely. However I ust can't get around Rev 20. It baffles me that he believes "Revelation 20 as a strong and immovable support for the amillennial perspective." I just can't see it! I've listened to Voddie Baucham and others (I just remember Voddie since he was the most recent) talk about Rev 20 and I just don't get how they arrive at that interpretation.

If we didn't have Revelation 20 I'd be amill no question, but Rev 20 forces me into Historic Premill.

That is basically the position or primary reason that Ladd gives for being pre-millennial according to Hoekema, page 182. I would recommend Hoekema's book to anyone interested in the millennium!
 

JamesL

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I was PreTrib Dispensational until about 3 years ago. But I started having issues with Dispensationalism about 10 years ago.

It was not through a study of Eschatology directly, though. I was studying Romans 10, having problems with verses 9-10 seeming to have 2 causes and 2 effects - believe unto righteousness, confess unto salvation. Wait a minute. It seemed to say that salvation might be distinct from righteousness. So that sent me on a long study of salvation.

And i found that the OT quotes in Romans 9 & 10 were eschatological.

But I was also intrigued by what I viewed as parallel thoughts between Romans 10:9-13 and Matthew 10. But wait. Matthew was written to Israel, and Paul wrote to the church....right? Hmmm

Then i was reading Ephesians 3:6, that Gentiles were made fellow heirs, members of the same body. Wait a minute. Same body as Israel? And Hebrews 11:30-40 that those who had endured in times past would not be made perfect without us.

And through a study of Election, Predestination, glory, and related issues, i could not escape the reality that the Eschatological promises to Israel were repeated to Gentiles. So i stopped referring to myself as Dispensational.

I wasn't sure what that made me, since i was (and still am not) convinced of Covenant Theology. I thought "Inverted Dispensationalist" might have fit best.

Then at my previous church, i was asked by our bible study teacher if i would debate the timing of the rapture in front of the class, against him. I still held to PreTrib at that time, mainly because i had not studied any other position in-depth, and it was still comfortable.

But there was a twist in the debate. The teacher was PostTrib, and thought the best way to have a friendly debate would be to argue in favor of the position we opposed.

So, in preparation for the debate, i spent about 5 weeks investigating the PostTrib position. Considering that PreTrib and Dispensationalism are married, and i had already abandoned my allegiance to Dispensationalism, the PostTrib position was not a hard sell.

A little word study, and rejection of any argument that was based wholly on Dispensational distinctions.

Now i would be Historic PreMil, i think - :D
 

blessedwife318

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I think for me the study of history has caused me to question pre-mill or at least how dispensationalist view it. I'm not ready to leave it yet since I'm still trying to understand the a mill view. And as another posted Rev 20 with its use of 1000 6 times is a hurdle to get over.
 

RLBosley

Active Member
So we have kind of taken over Evan's thread with our discussion of the millennial views. I know that the timing of the rapture is related to that topic but that isn't exactly the purpose of the thread. Evan said he would respond here sometime this weekend, so with that in mind I'm going to make a new thread talking about the millennial views, specifically amillennialism.

Link: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=97775
 
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evangelist6589

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Deut. 4:29-30 is not the so-called Great Tribulation time but a prophecy of the Babylonian exile. It's irrelevant.

Based on what evidence? The "later days" reference may refer to anytime after the initial dispersions but the ultimate fulfillment will be during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. How do you explain Rev 20:4?
Jer. 30:4-11 is talking immediately about the exile as well though it does point forward to the time when Christ would be established as King over his people. But you're assuming that the kingdom must be literal physical Israel. The use of Amos 9 in Acts 15 shows that the apostles saw the gathering of the church, Jews and Gentiles in Christ, was the ultimate fulfillment of the regathering of Israel.

Is it? Why was the northern kingdom of Israel not affected? It had already gone into captivity in 722BC. No Jeremiah was referring to the future tribulation period.

Dan. 8:24-27 is not about the end times specifically. Though it may prefigure it.

Got me on that one. The passage is about Antiochus IV.

Dan 12:1-2 is about the resurrection to eternal life and eternal death. Both come at the end of this time of trouble. There is nothing definitive regarding the tribulation here at all.

What of the phrase "at that time" in the ESV in verse 1? Does not this refer to the tribulation period?

Will reply to the NT section later
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Why do the pre-trib-dispensationalists reject the teaching of Jesus Christ in John 5:28, 29? Is it because it destroys pre-trib-teaching of a parenthesis Church?

28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.
 

Yeshua1

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1. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

2. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18)

So others what do you say? Did I tell you to buy a book? NO I did not because I know eschatology better than I know other theological arguments. Books are quite helpful, but the scripture is the authority.

Would say that the best reasons would be that the church is not appointed unto the Wrath of god to be poured out in great tribulation, and that is the time for national isreal to be prepared to meet her comg messiah, and not the church to be made right for him, already have been!
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Would say that the best reasons would be that the church is not appointed unto the Wrath of god to be poured out in great tribulation, and that is the time for national isreal to be prepared to meet her comg messiah, and not the church to be made right for him, already have been!

Israel met the Messiah and crucified Him! What is perhaps worse they conspired with Rome to crucify Him!
 

Greektim

Well-Known Member
Based on what evidence? The "later days" reference may refer to anytime after the initial dispersions but the ultimate fulfillment will be during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. How do you explain Rev 20:4?


Is it? Why was the northern kingdom of Israel not affected? It had already gone into captivity in 722BC. No Jeremiah was referring to the future tribulation period.



Got me on that one. The passage is about Antiochus IV.



What of the phrase "at that time" in the ESV in verse 1? Does not this refer to the tribulation period?

Will reply to the NT section later
Any thoughts to your "two good arguments" being arguments of silence, Evan? Or am I on ignore?
 

Yeshua1

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1. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

2. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18)

So others what do you say? Did I tell you to buy a book? NO I did not because I know eschatology better than I know other theological arguments. Books are quite helpful, but the scripture is the authority.

1 Thes 1:9-10 would be a primaey text to support pre trib, as the Church is looking for jesus, who has already spared us from yjr Wrath, great tribulation still yet to come!
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
1 Thes 1:9-10 would be a primaey text to support pre trib, as the Church is looking for jesus, who has already spared us from yjr Wrath, great tribulation still yet to come!

The truth is there is not a single passage of Scripture that supports either Darby's-pre-trib-rapture or Darby's "parenthesis" Church. Walvoord is at least honest when it comes to this false representation of the Church. Walvoord writes, [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]:

If the question be asked: Will the church be raptured before end-time events? it becomes very important to define the church as an entity that is distinct from Israel or saints in general. In prophetic passages concerning the Tribulation, both Israelites and Gentiles are described, and some of them have faith in Christ and form a godly remnant. If they are part of the church, then the church is in the Tribulation, and the whole question as to whether the church goes through the Tribulation becomes moot. Many posttribulationists, in an attempt to establish their own point of view, beg the question at the very beginning by assuming that the church includes saints of all ages. The concept that the church is distinct from Israel is a part of dispensational truth that distinguishes the work of God in the Old Testament under the Mosaic Law, the work of God in the present age as he calls out both Jews and Gentiles to form the church as the body of Christ, and the millennial kingdom in which the saints of all ages participate in various ways but maintain their individual and corporate identity. Hence, the church will be raptured or resurrected, and will reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom, but the saved of Israel as well as the saved of the Gentiles who are not part of the church will also be part of the millennial kingdom. Distinguishing the church from saints of other periods that precede or follow the present age is essential to a correct answer on the pretribulational issue. It is not too much to say that the doctrine of the church, or ecclesiology, determines this aspect of eschatology.

The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 defines the Church properly as follows:

The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.
 
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