Two parts of baptism?

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
(Mat 26:28 KJV) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

(Acts 2:38 KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

--Same exact language, both FOR the remission.

Both the Greek word "eis" and the English word "for" have multiple meanings. If somebody goes to jail for stealing, "for" means "because of" or "as a result of". Thus it can be said that Christians should be baptized because their sins have been remmited. This interpretation supports the view that salvation is by faith not by baptism which is consistent with Ephesians 1:13-14 whereas your interpretation is not.

[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43

--Future tense on the recieving SHALL RECIEVE but not immediately.

If it a person believes in Christ, the remission of their sins is the result. Stick your hand on a hot burner and it shall burn as a result. Unfortunately, your hand will not wait to be baptized before it starts to be damaged by the heat.

(John 3:16) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

--SHOULD not WILL

Irrelevant, other verses such as John 3:18 have more definate language.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3:18 KJV

--is not condemned, NOT might not be condemned

(Acts 5:32) "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

--Holy Ghost given to OBEDIENT.

etc. etc.

Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit when they trust in Christ, not when they are baptized.

[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

Believing in Christ is obeying God and so those who truly put their faith in Christ are obedient to God.

[23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. - 1 John 3:23 KJV

There is not one single verse that say if a person has faith in Christ and is not baptized, they are not saved.

[ July 08, 2002, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Dualhunter ]

 

[Briguy]

Dualhunter, Thanks so much for that post. That was good, sound theology, taking the whole of scripture into account. So many people want to make Baptism and other acts we do as the obdience that the Bible talks about. What they forget is that we fail everyday. In the sense of loving our neighbor, controling our tongue, etc... we are disobedient daily and so we could not achieve saving obedience in that sense. I believe you are right on and that the call to obedience is to be obedient to God by trusting and placing our faith in His son to save us from our past, present, and future sins. I for one have had past sins, am currently sinning and unfortunetly will have future sins. ---- Thank you Jesus for taking them all upon yourself!!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Sir Ed]

Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Dualhunter, the verses you quote is nice, but you should deal with Scripture in its entirety.

[ July 09, 2002, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]

 

[Brother Adam]

I like that verse too Sir Ed, it says very clearly that those who are not baptized are not necessarily condemned.

Bro. Adam

 

[Briguy]

Ed, You had to edit a one sentance post, whats up with that

How you been anyway, we haven't "talked" of late. Hope everything is well with you and your family

Ed, The scripture you used has been explained to death and does not represent the "whole" of scripture. It is one scripture and one only and doesn't say what you want it to say. It must be taken IN the whole of scripture

Take care, In our Lord,
Brian

 

[Brother Adam]

Romans 3:23-25

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--

3:25 Or as the one who would turn aside his wrath, taking away sin

Taken from Gospelcom.net, "Romans 3:23-25"

 

[Sir Ed]

Brian, doing fine. Thanks.

I know that one verse doesn't explain it all that. That is my point. Mark 16 verse was not mentioned by hunter and its pretty important.

Peace be with you.

 

[Briguy]

Ed, I think ALL of scripture is pretty important, No, I would say really really important!

Peace to you as well!
Brian

 

[Dualhunter]

While Mark 16:16 is important, as was already mentioned it does not say that whoever is not baptized is condemned. There are many verses that say whoever believes will be saved without mentioning baptism. Also when Paul states the core of the gospel he does not mention baptism:

[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
[6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
[7] After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
[8] And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
[9] For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
[10] But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
[11] Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. - 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 KJV

 

[Torrey]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
I am not talking about personal experience. I am talking about what is written in Scripture.

My personal experience is based on scripture.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life" John 6:47

 

[Sir Ed]

While Mark 16:16 is important, as was already mentioned it does not say that whoever is not baptized is condemned. There are many verses that say whoever believes will be saved without mentioning baptism.

Exactly, that is my point. So don't ignore Mark 16. Reconcile it with all other verses.

Peace be with you.

 

[Torrey]

Hello Sir Ed,

Of course, Mark 16:16 was spoken by Jesus himself but what baptism was Jesus talking about? For John declared that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Matt.3:11

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Sir Ed:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> While Mark 16:16 is important, as was already mentioned it does not say that whoever is not baptized is condemned. There are many verses that say whoever believes will be saved without mentioning baptism.

Exactly, that is my point. So don't ignore Mark 16. Reconcile it with all other verses.

Peace be with you.</font>[/QUOTE]I don't see how I'm ignoring it. My post was simply a point by point refutal of points previously made. Because Mark 16:16 does NOT say that he who believes but is not baptized is condemned, we cannot assume that a person who trusts in Christ but is not baptized is condemned. There are just too many verses which support that salvation is by grace through faith, not by baptism (in most cases baptism is not even mentioned). What we can assume from Mark 16:16 is that a person who believes and is baptized is saved. We can also conclude that somebody who either is baptized and does not believe or is not baptized and does not believe is condemned. We are not told in this verse what happens to those who believe but are not baptized but because of the many verses that make belief the only condition for salvation (such as John 5:24) and the verses that deny that salvation is by works (such as Ephesians 2:8-9) it is safe to conclude that baptism is not necessary for salvation. However, for the record, just because it is not necessary for salvation does not mean that believers should not be baptized, rather all believers who have not been baptized should be baptized though their salvation does not depend on it.

 

[Chemnitz]

We are not told in this verse what happens to those who believe but are not baptized but because of the many verses that make belief the only condition for salvation (such as John 5:24) and the verses that deny that salvation is by works (such as Ephesians 2:8-9) it is safe to conclude that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

But baptism is not a work. Anything that has the promise of forgiveness is not a work and baptism carries the promise of forgiveness of sins. Baptism is necessary because a) Christ commanded it, b) it carries with it the forgiveness of sins. Let me clarify it is not absolutely necessary, in that if a believer dies before being baptised they will not go to hell just because they didn't have the chance to be baptised. However, I do believe that if somebody who claims to be a believer and rejects baptism is not really a believer because they have rejected the promise of God contained in Baptism.

 

[Briguy]

Rats, I guess I am not going to Heaven afterall, Oh Phooey!

Seriously, It is not that I reject Baptism I just don't feel a need almost 11 years after being saved to be baptized. Also, Baptisms now are a big ceremoney done for other believers and not done in the open for all to see as they once were. It just simply is different now and not needed in the grand scheme of the Christian walk. I seek after love(charity) not Baptism. I would rather spend my energy serving others then going through a Baptism that only believers will see anyway. My lost family and friends already know to whom I belong, so being baptized would not be anything new.

In a dry salvation,

Brian

 

[Chemnitz]

Ask yourself this, Are you still a sinner?
Are you still breathing?

If you answered yes to either question then you need to be baptised. To deny that you need baptism is to deny the promise of God.

 

[Brother Adam]

If you were never baptized as a believer, then yes, I would agree that baptism is necessary. Christ commanded baptism as he commanded the Lord's supper. And God's command is not something to be taken lightly. Remember you are not being baptized to put on a show for other people, in fact you're not really even being baptized for yourself. You are being baptized for God. Yes, baptism can be a witness, it is to be done by a church with a community of believers, but it is most important because God commanded it. While Chemnitz and I disagree that baptism imparts saving grace, we both agree that baptism is none the less a necessary part of the Christian faith.

Bro. Adam

 

[charles]

Brother Adam,

I Totally agree with your post.

God bless you,Charles

 

[Briguy]

Hi Adam,
You wrote "Yes, baptism can be a witness, it is to be done by a church with a community of believers--"

Here is the problem I have. Who says that Baptism is to be done this way. Phillip and the Eunuch certainly did not. Cases in Acts sound like an Apostle would just take a family to some water and do a baptism, no community of believers needed at all. What I see in your statement is the man-made part of baptism. I have read all the verses on baptism and do not see a command for ME to be Baptized, today, in the year 2002. Baptism was however very important in the early church as a show of commitment to the new radical group called "The Way" (what we know now as the early church). Much persecution awaited those who were considered in "The Way"

Chem, Your opinions are well taken I appreciate your concern (I think you are concerned for me anyway) but please try to refute my points directly so I know you understand what I am saying, Thanks much!!

In Love and Truth,
Brian

p.s. I was Baptized as a baby in the Lutheran church so L's and C's probably think I am OK.

[ July 10, 2002, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

[Sir Ed]

Brian, you are good to go then!