Two parts of baptism?

[Dualhunter]

Baptism is indeed a work. As I've stated before, every believer who has not been baptized, should be, but salvation is by faith not by works. People who believe in baptismal regeneration often quote verses which they claim state that water baptism forgives sin and then they say if you have faith but die before being baptized you're fine. But if baptism really does forgive sins, you would not be fine because your sins would not be forgiven. The thief on the cross was not baptized yet Jesus told him that he would be in paradise that day. The thief had access to the atonement provide through the blood of Christ by faith in Christ not by baptism or any other works.

[22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. - Hebrews 9:22 KJV

 

[Chemnitz]

.s. I was Baptized as a baby in the Lutheran church so L's and C's probably think I am OK.

I forgot about that, and your right.

[ July 10, 2002, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[Brother Adam]

I didn't know that you were baptized as a baby in the Lutheran church. Since the Lutherans baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, you have already been baptized. I disagree with infant baptism, but at the same time cannot give you a verse that scriptually condemns the practice.

Also, I can give you a verse that says that you need to be baptized as a Christian:

Matthew 28:
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Bro. Adam

 

[Briguy]

Ed, you put a smile on my face, Thank you!

Adam, What if the Pastor that baptized me is not a Christian. I personally have known 3 Lutheran pastors who are not Christians. I found out by drinking with 2 of them (before I was a Christian), hearing them swear, etc... They, especially 2 of them didn't even fake it well. Anyway, It may be the case that the pastor that sprinkled water on me was not saved and maybe even went to a strip club the night before my baptism (I'm getting a little silly I know but I am trying to make a point). If what I just said is the case is my Baptism valid? What if, and this happens a lot, the parents of a Baptized infant are not Christians?

Finally Adam, the verse you quote does not say Baptism is a must. 2 observations. It was 34Ad when that was said and Baptism was a very important thing in the early church to set Christians apart, or perhaps Jesus is giving an instruction for how baptism is to take place when it does occur. Since it is a fine thing to do, especially then, it makes sense to have some instruction on it.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I am adamantly opposed to the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, but I also don't believe that the primary reason one should be baptized is because it is commanded. The Quakers are quite right in pointing out that since Jesus Himself didn't water-baptize, it cannot be considered essential to the Christian faith.

Water baptism is a sacred symbol; it's importance lies in the fact that it presents the message of the Gospel in visible form. It may thus be a means for bringing those who witness it to Christ--just as a sermon, or scripture reading, or hymn, or a believer's life may be.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by The Briguy:
Adam, What if the Pastor that baptized me is not a Christian. I personally have known 3 Lutheran pastors who are not Christians. I found out by drinking with 2 of them (before I was a Christian), hearing them swear, etc... They, especially 2 of them didn't even fake it well.

Brian, are you suggesting that a person's sins determine whether one is a Christian or not? Can you name even one person, including yourself, that does not sin?

Ron

 

[Chemnitz]

The pastor is only the tool being used by God. So no matter what sins he commited the baptism is still valid, because the power of baptism does not come from the pastor.

 

[Briguy]

Hey Ron, Please do not misunderstand me here. I am not judging the pastors based on their sins. I had at one time sat down and talked theology, life etc... with them(2 of the 3 anyway) and know what they believe. One in particular was a big universal salvationist and believed we all go to Heaven no matter what. He did not believe in Hell. A different pastor friend said that he saw more "Pot" at seminary then he did in high school, he also made a very very profane statement regarding a young lady that approached us while we were drinking at a bar one night. Anyway, the point is we have to judge somewhat as to where someone is at to know how to approch them about the gospel and salvation.

Chem, If the pastor doesn't matter, why does it have to be a pastor at all. If I have my wife Baptize me in the bathtub tonight am I then fulfilling God's command? What about the gay pastor at the local UU church, should I seek him out to do the Baptism?

My point is not to mock Baptism, my point is simply to show that we need to de-empasize Baptism and seek after Charity which leads to sharing the gospel in word and deed.

Adam, If possible please respond to my above post that was in response to yours. Even though you are young I value your opinion

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Sir Ed]

If I have my wife Baptize me in the bathtub tonight am I then fulfilling God's command?

Sure, why not?

FYI: Lutherans don't sprinkle, they immerse or pour.

[ July 11, 2002, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]

 

[Brother Adam]

Hey Brain!

I was planning on replying, just haven't had time yet. I don't have a computer at home right now, so it takes a while for me to reply sometimes.

I'm going to go two different routes in my response here: 1)To show the emphesis placed on baptism in the Bible and the Bibles application to our lives and 2) To show that baptism is a function of the church (so no, I probably won't suggest your wife baptize you in the bathtub )

1) First off, I don't think baptism is to be taken lightly, and I don't believe that it was something that was ONLY for those in Christ's time. While being in the math lab here at school I can't go to deep into the meaning of different words, let's look again at the verse I used earlier:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

This command was to the Apostles, or the leaders of the new church. We know that to "make disciples" was to make followers of Christ. I think we could both agree on that this is something that we should still be doing today, and it is something that is the responsibility of the church (to teach believers). Likewise, in the same breath, Christ adds that they are to be baptized, or identified with their new faith. Christ doesn't give us any reason to believe that baptism is no longer needed after a certain point in time.

Acts 13:24
Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel.

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Everywhere in the Bible where faith, repentance, confession, and other parts of our Christian beliefs are talked about baptism seems to be closely connected.

1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also–not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[ 3:21 Or response] of a good conscience toward God.

1 Peter is also fairly clear that baptism is an outward sign of our faith. Now, whether or not to be rebaptized is a choice between you and God, but I think the Bible is clear that baptism isn't something that is no longer important.

2) Baptism, while not always done by the church, it is a general rule that it is done by a pastor. Why? Because we know that a pastor understands the signifigance of baptism and is able to administer baptism in a correct fashion (In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Well, I have to go to class, I'll be back afterwards though.

Bro. Adam

[ July 11, 2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Brother Adam ]

 

[Brother Adam]

Well, I have to run down a lead on a job right now, but hopefully someone else can pick up for me where I left off that agrees baptism is to be administered by the church when possible. Otherwise, I will try to be back on in the next couple of days to continue.

Peace!
Bro. Adam

 

[Briguy]

Hi Adam, I and others I'm sure will pray that you get the job you are going after (provided its not in a bar or being a male stripper or something like that ).

This verse is interesting,
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

If you read it carefully you will see it can't possibly be a command. It is not possible to make disciples of ALL nations. It does not say "in" it says "of". This statement of Jesus is simply like a coach telling his team: "OK Guys, it's a tough team we're up against but we can win this thing if we play tough, Now, get out there and win this thing." (I know I am going to take a pounding on this one but I am calling it as I see it). Adam, does that make sense or did it leave you with a blank stare or a daaaaaa coming out of your mouth. Let me know.

Adam, thanks again for your response, I hope to write more on this later but am out of time. Take care my brother,

In Our Lord,
Brian

P.S. I was really hoping you would suggest the bathtub Baptism with my wife, I was starting to look forward to that.

Oh wait, thats right, Ed gave me the go ahead so I am still in business

[ July 11, 2002, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

[Brother Adam]

Daaaaa...

LOL, Yeah, I understand where you are coming from, don't agree with it, but understand.

Hrm...male stripper. Now there's an idea. Let me think...umm....no! hehe

Actually it was a truck driving job. I'm getting so desperate for work at this point that i'm about to go and apply for a min. wage job at the place I quit. Sad eh?

I'll try to contribute more later though!

Bro. Adam

 

[Chemnitz]

Chem, If the pastor doesn't matter, why does it have to be a pastor at all. If I have my wife Baptize me in the bathtub tonight am I then fulfilling God's command? What about the gay pastor at the local UU church, should I seek him out to do the Baptism?

Preferably baptism should be done by a pastor, but even the Lutheran Church allows for baptism by any Christian preferably a man to baptize in an emergancy. I am not familiar with the abreviation UU so I am assuming it is some group that is way out in left field. I would say no don't seek him/her/it out. To be honest I cannot see how somebody could remain in the sin of homosexuality and still be a Christian.

The baptism by your wife in the bathtub sounds like it would be fun for you guys but unnecessary since you have already been baptized.

P.S. - The effecacy of the sacraments being affected by the righteousness of the person administering it is a heresy, taught by the Donatists, that was denounced back in ~ the 5th century.

[ July 14, 2002, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[Alex]

Strange that I just saw this thread(last post), and our Preacher commented on this tonight. He said that ANY Christian can baptist and that for the Baptist, this became a "job description" for him and others, BUT has NO bibical support. He added that it could be done at home, river, etc.. So a lot of Preachers doing the baptism is as he said, more of a job description by church committies that has become somewhat of a tradition now. Deacons are also a defined title as anyone who is a Christian should be able to be a Deacon. I guess these "traditions" cover many positions within many churches!

God Bless............Alex

 

[Briguy]

Hi Adam, Sorry to hear about your job woes. Even at my age(40 next month) job things can be such a bummer. I switched job 2 years ago and last Christmas we lost our contract and got taken over by a new agency that hired me but paid me alittle less and had much worse insurance. It started me looking for a new job last January and I am still looking. I wish you better luck then I have had. I and others will keep you in our prayers. It WILL work out and someday you will look back and see how good God's timing was.

Adam and Chem, I am still confused by something. Are you both saying that Baptism should be done by a pastor but can be done anybody?

Chem, you said that "in an emergency" anybody, preferably a man can Baptize.

"In an emergency"???? Chem, You really do believe that one MUST be Baptized to be saved don't you. Think about a God who would judge us on the basis of water being poured over our head (or us being immersed in water) vs. what we truley believe. So if the man who is to perform the emergency baptism gets stuck in traffic and the non Baptized person dies you believe it is tough luck for that person right?.

Also, Do you Baptize an adult that doesn't believe to ensure their salvation? or is it just to give them at least a shot at Heaven. The whole idea just doesn't sound like it is part of the God I serve. Just some thoughts anyway
Take care,
In Christ,
Brian

 

[Chemnitz]

Adam and Chem, I am still confused by something. Are you both saying that Baptism should be done by a pastor but can be done anybody?

Yes

"In an emergency"???? Chem, You really do believe that one MUST be Baptized to be saved don't you. Think about a God who would judge us on the basis of water being poured over our head (or us being immersed in water) vs. what we truley believe. So if the man who is to perform the emergency baptism gets stuck in traffic and the non Baptized person dies you believe it is tough luck for that person right?.

I have said before I believe baptism to be necessary in the plan for salvation, but not absolutely necessary. Your question is a highly unlikely situation, but no the person isn't out of luck. Most emergency baptisms were and are done on infants of Christian parents.

[ July 15, 2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[Briguy]

Chem writes: """"I have said before I believe baptism to be necessary in the plan for salvation, but not absolutely necessary. Your question is a highly unlikely situation, but no the person isn't out of luck. Most emergancy baptisms were and are done on infants of Christian parents. """"

Chem, if Baptism is not an absolute then how can there ever be an "emergency Baptism?" Something is a little, well actually, a lot off here.
Looking forward to your reply.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[SolaScriptura]

If you were never baptized as a believer, then yes, I would agree that baptism is necessary.

I agree with whoever said this. I would add, however, that one who has never been baptized as a believer has rejected it and is sinning in not doing it. "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)

I would further add that if you love Christ you better get baptized! If indeed you have the ability to keep one of his commandments but refuse to do it, have you not openly declared that you do not love him?

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (1 John 5:3)

 

[Chemnitz]

Baptism is a means of grace and serves to strengthen and perserve faith, there is no reason to withhold baptism just because somebody is about to die. So why not give an "emergency" baptism if a person desires to be baptised before they die? Just because somebody only has a very short time to survive is no reason to deny them baptism.