Yes, David will see God in his own resurrected, physical body. As for ruling Israel, David abdicated to his son Solomon, so he will not having anything to do with ruling Israel in the Millennium.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Two Prophecies in One
- Thread starter John of Japan
- Start date
Folks, I'm disappointed. All we have had on this thread so far are the same tired old arguments against a literal, earthly reign of Christ held by postmil, amil, and preterist folk. However, the OP was about a specific exegesis.
Again: if Is. 9:6 is a prophecy of the incarnation which all Bible-believers (whatever their eschatology) interpret literally, why is v. 7. which is about the throne of David, not to be interpreted literally? I say that an interpretive key is the fact that every single mention--every single one--of the throne of David up until this passage was a literal earthly throne.
Folks, I've done the hard work, hours of study, but I'll share it with you. Here are the verses:
Solomon on David's throne: 1 Kings 1:13, 1:37, 1:47, 2:12, 2:24, 3:6, 5:5, 8:20, 8:25, 1 Chron. 29:23, 2 Chron. 6:10, 7:18, 2Ch 6:16.
Otherwise, before Isaiah 9 but not messianic:
2 Sam. 3:10--"To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over Judah, from Dan even to Beersheba.
Ps. 122:5--"For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David."
In Jeremiah, all literal earthly thrones: 13:13, 17:25, 22:2-4, 22:30, 29:16, 36:30.
Then there are the Messianic prophecies:
1Ki 2:33 Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever: but upon David, and upon his seed, and upon his house, and upon his throne, shall there be peace for ever from the LORD.
1Ki 2:45 And king Solomon [shall be] blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.
1Ki 9:4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: 5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
Ps 132:11 The LORD hath sworn [in] truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. 12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
Isa 9: 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Isa 16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.
Jer 33:19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, 20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Again: if Is. 9:6 is a prophecy of the incarnation which all Bible-believers (whatever their eschatology) interpret literally, why is v. 7. which is about the throne of David, not to be interpreted literally? I say that an interpretive key is the fact that every single mention--every single one--of the throne of David up until this passage was a literal earthly throne.
Folks, I've done the hard work, hours of study, but I'll share it with you. Here are the verses:
Solomon on David's throne: 1 Kings 1:13, 1:37, 1:47, 2:12, 2:24, 3:6, 5:5, 8:20, 8:25, 1 Chron. 29:23, 2 Chron. 6:10, 7:18, 2Ch 6:16.
Otherwise, before Isaiah 9 but not messianic:
2 Sam. 3:10--"To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over Judah, from Dan even to Beersheba.
Ps. 122:5--"For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David."
In Jeremiah, all literal earthly thrones: 13:13, 17:25, 22:2-4, 22:30, 29:16, 36:30.
Then there are the Messianic prophecies:
1Ki 2:33 Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever: but upon David, and upon his seed, and upon his house, and upon his throne, shall there be peace for ever from the LORD.
1Ki 2:45 And king Solomon [shall be] blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.
1Ki 9:4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: 5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
Ps 132:11 The LORD hath sworn [in] truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. 12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
Isa 9: 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Isa 16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.
Jer 33:19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, 20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Interpreting prophecy literally is so much easier and safer. Those who interpret allegorically/symbolically invariably will disagree with each other, but literal interpretation trends easily toward agreement between interpreters.
A relevant quote: "When Vos was faced with the problem of the nonfulfillment and, for an amillennialist as himself, the seeming impossibility of any future fulfillment of a number of Biblical prophecies which speak directly of events upon this earth, he conceded, 'The adoption of premillennialism wouild greatly limit the field of the impossible in this respect'" (J. Barton Payne, Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy, p. 107, f.n. 209).
A relevant quote: "When Vos was faced with the problem of the nonfulfillment and, for an amillennialist as himself, the seeming impossibility of any future fulfillment of a number of Biblical prophecies which speak directly of events upon this earth, he conceded, 'The adoption of premillennialism wouild greatly limit the field of the impossible in this respect'" (J. Barton Payne, Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy, p. 107, f.n. 209).
I see a Covenant premil view here, as Jesus will return and set up His Kingdom here upon the earth, but will be ruling as King over all earth, over all people of God, not Just Israel proper!
I hold to the historical premil Covenant position, so I am either in the worst of or the best of both worlds!
Or maybe you're just mixed up.
What I said in post #4
I also believe v7 is literal.
Christ had come, born of woman Gal 4:4 Luke 2:11 to ( literally ) sit on the throne of his father David in the future. On the earth.
I do not believe Jesus is presently sitting on the throne of David.
Permit me to ask something else, maybe not on topic yet maybe is.
Psalms 132:11
The (A) LORD hath sworn in truth unto (B) David; (C) he will not turn from it; (D)Of the fruit of thy body will (E) I set upon (F) thy throne.
Who is
A. LORD
B. David
C. he
D. of the fruit of thy body
E. I
F. thy
Considering: Psalms 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The (A) LORD said unto (B) my (C) Lord, Sit thou at (D) my right hand, until (E) I make (F) thine enemies (F) thy footstool.
A,. B. C. D. E. F.
Who?
Will the LORD, sit on the throne of David, through the Lord, of the fruit of his loins of David, according to the flesh?
Literal?
I also believe v7 is literal.
Christ had come, born of woman Gal 4:4 Luke 2:11 to ( literally ) sit on the throne of his father David in the future. On the earth.
I do not believe Jesus is presently sitting on the throne of David.
Permit me to ask something else, maybe not on topic yet maybe is.
Psalms 132:11
The (A) LORD hath sworn in truth unto (B) David; (C) he will not turn from it; (D)Of the fruit of thy body will (E) I set upon (F) thy throne.
Who is
A. LORD
B. David
C. he
D. of the fruit of thy body
E. I
F. thy
Considering: Psalms 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The (A) LORD said unto (B) my (C) Lord, Sit thou at (D) my right hand, until (E) I make (F) thine enemies (F) thy footstool.
A,. B. C. D. E. F.
Who?
Will the LORD, sit on the throne of David, through the Lord, of the fruit of his loins of David, according to the flesh?
Literal?
Amen. The Root, not the seed of David.
Yeah. The temple. The priesthood. The sacrifices.
He rules now from Heaven.
Actually, building again the temporary structures and ordinances that were destroyed when the Archetype accomplished His work, is worse than sacrilegious. It's antichrist.
You may think your notion of the Millennium glorious and huge, because you aren't able to comprehend the real glory of the Kingdom.
It's temporary. It will end. It is therefore small. There are still rebellious nations afoot that will be coerced by drought into observing feasts, as if their outward observance is preferred to the circumcision of the heart. Animals will be slaughtered and burned according to carnal commandments in a dead man-made structure. Inglorious.
Ugh.
You can have it. Enjoy it while you can. My rewards are eternal. My Lord changes hearts by His grace. He dwells in a Temple made of living stones not made with hands. Glorious. Glorious. Glorious.
If only you had eyes to see.
Forgot to respond to this bit of superstition here. It's kinda like DeHaan's "Divine Blood" foolishness, since biology, he was told, says blood DNA comes from the father's contribution to conception.
Yes, Jesus still bears the marks in His hands and side. But no one mentions His stripes, nor the marks of the thorns on His head, nor any other signs of His beating. And being raised only three days later, you'd think the disciples on the Road to Emmaus would have said on their first sight of the risen Christ, "Whoa! What happened to you?!" He must have some X-Men DNA to heal so fast.
The Resurrection is a miracle, and the bodies we receive will not be the same as that we have now. I'm not even going to cite the reference. This is something we're told in straightforward, unambiguous and elementary terms, but we'd rather listen to Scofield than Paul, and so we imagine some real doozies like Christ's scars prove he has David's DNA.
What? You think those beheaded for Christ are going to appear with scar rings around their necks? Puh-leeze!
The scars in Christs hands and side are still visible, because God's will is that He still bears them in His resurrected, glorified, changed, immortal and uncorruptible body. And most likely because they are the signs of His great love to us. Like we sing on many Sundays:
Crown him the Lord of love.
Behold his hands and side,
Rich wounds, yet visible above,
In beauty glorified.
No angel in the sky
Can fully bear that sight,
But downward bends his wondering eyes
At mysteries so bright.
Behold his hands and side,
Rich wounds, yet visible above,
In beauty glorified.
No angel in the sky
Can fully bear that sight,
But downward bends his wondering eyes
At mysteries so bright.
David's DNA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
You may be a linguist, but you're no theologian.
Last edited:
Why would I care about that?
Well of course He does. That's what the Kingdom of God/Heaven means.
Again, why would I care about that in my theology?
Wow. So you have it all--you comprehend the real glory of the Kingdom. And I'm this poor blasphemer who just happens to take the Word of God literally.
I'll say it again. No one, least of all you, has yet answered my OP. I'm not interested in your objections to something I don't believe in, I just want exegesis of Isaiah 9. Can you do that, or are you a one trick pony?
Would you care to answer the OP and actually exegete the Scriptures?
Well, actually I teach theology in a seminary. But I should bow to your superior theology I suppose. You're the man!
Now, once again, would you care to actually answer the OP? Do you know how to do exegesis, or are you only good at mocking people?
John 7:42--"Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?"
"Rom. 1:3--"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;"
2 Tim. 2:8--"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:"
You should get your facts straight before going out on a limb like this. Actually, DNA comes from both parents. And the Bible makes a big deal of Jesus being of David's seed. Concerning Dr. DeHaan, if you are referring to his books The Chemistry of the Blood, that was written before DNA was discovered. Just sayin'.
Again, the Scripture:
John 7:42--"Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?"
"Rom. 1:3--"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;"
2 Tim. 2:8--"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:"
Irrelevant to my OP.
You're twisting my argument, which was that Christ is still fully human.
Again, you are very good at mocking. Is that representative of your brand of Christian living?
Why in the world do you think I would disagree with this?
Last edited:
Again, DNA comes from both parents. And Biblically Christ is the "seed of David." I've not said a single word about Mary, and the Scriptures do not make a bid deal about Mary after she bore Jesus, but they do make a big deal out of Jesus being of the "house of David," besides being the "seed of David."
Luke 1:27--"To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."
Luke 1:69--"And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;"
Luke 2:4--"And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David
"So again, you are mocking and not actually answering my OP, or even my secondary points.
Last edited:
Is this post aimed at me?
Note also that this passage was quoted in Heb. 1:13, and referred to in Heb. 10:13, so your B and so forth are certainly our Lord Jesus Christ.
Good!
Since I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, I'll just mention a couple of things. First of all, note that LORD in all caps refers to Yahweh.
Note also that this passage was quoted in Heb. 1:13, and referred to in Heb. 10:13, so your B and so forth are certainly our Lord Jesus Christ.
IIRC, Mary was also descended from David.
Excellent point.