Two Questions

[Reformed]

Synergism | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

No, there is no human "effort" in salvation. The Holy Ghost draws a man convincing him of sin, righteousness and judgment and the person obeys by simply trusting in Jesus to save his wicked soul from Hell. there is no initiation or "effort" in that. A mute quadriplegic who can't do anything but blink could trust Jesus and there would be no perceptible "effort" at all.

I don't disagree about what you said, it's what wasn't said that I would like know about. In your opinion how does free will play into your soteriological view?

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[SheepWhisperer]

There were two thieves on the cross, hanging on either side of God Himself. They both heard his gracious words and observed how he reacted to everything that was happening. But one believed while the other rejected....in the presence of God Himself. I don't have an answer as to why some believe and others don't. And this is what this whole debate boils down to really. Why do some choose and others not?

We all have faith in that we have the capacity to believe in something. God Himself gave us that capacity as human beings.
God wants people to love Him of their own free will "because he first loved us" the Bible says.. He gives total freedom to choose life or death, the narrow way or the broad way, Jesus or self. God himself gives the invitation to believe and He's basically saying "I hold the keys of death and Hell: choose Jesus and receive Life or you will go to Hell when you die"

 

[Revmitchell]

Synergism is a fallacy. Since when is reaching out and receiving a gift also considered part of the giving of the gift?

 

[Yeshua1]

They would be wrong..
God's grace comes first, and only AFTER the Holy Ghost convicts a sinner of sin, righteousness, and judgment. can that person exercise faith in Jesus Christ. But that is NOT the same as the "effacious" or "irresistable" grace thing because a person CAN resist the Holy Ghost and reject or "put it off". Oh yes, for those who don't yet know, I am neither "Arminian" nor determinist, fatalist, "particularist", Calvinist, or whatever one wants to call it.

Problem is that there are NO example sin the bible that shows to us one God determined to save resisted Him saving them!

 

[Yeshua1]

Any soteriological system that posits that man exercises faith without first being regenerated is a synergistic system, i.e. man cooperates with God in salvation. You can call it semi-Pelagianism or not, it still boils down to the same thing.

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Sinners cannot choose to do other than what their sin natures compel them to do....

 

[Yeshua1]

I completely agree. I've found that those who say, "I'm neither a Calvinist or an Arminian" are in one of two camps. The first, they really don't know much about this subject, and they say something like, "I follow the Bible, not men". The second group knows slightly more, and they just want to be contrary.

The number of people who understand both sides and come up as true Arminians (as you've described in your post) can be counted using my fingers and toes (which is how I normally count, so that works.)

I think that it would be impossible for sinners to accept Jesus as their Lord apart from the Holy Spirit giving them saving faith and enabling them to respond, as sin natures prefer to stay in the dark

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have just two questions for all those who don't think God is sovereign in election.

First, does God draw all men, without exception, to Christ?

Second, will all men be saved?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

1) No
2) No

 

[thatbrian]

I think that it would be impossible for sinners to accept Jesus as their Lord apart from the Holy Spirit giving them saving faith and enabling them to respond, as sin natures prefer to stay in the dark

Of course, it would be. Sinners hate God, they hide from Him, and they fear their judgment, so they would never come to Him, as John 6 explains a few times.

I thank God that He "violated my free will", grabbed me by the scruff of the neck, and saved me!

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course, it would be. Sinners hate God, they hide from Him, and they fear their judgment, so they would never come to Him, as John 6 explains a few times.

I thank God that He "violated my free will", grabbed me by the scruff of the neck, and saved me!

I always wondered how those holding to being able to resist saving Grace handle Paul, as he seemed to have the Lord changed his mind!

 

[thatbrian]

I always wondered how those holding to being able to resist saving Grace handle Paul, as he seemed to have the Lord changed his mind!

It's by default. They don't think it through. They understand these things they way they do all of life. They are gods.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

So God draws all men, but is incompetent to save them?

Must have hit a nerve with that one.

 

[Van]

I have just two questions for all those who don't think God is sovereign in election.
First, does God draw all men, without exception, to Christ?
Second, will all men be saved?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

I guess it is the right season for chestnuts.
Here are a few more:
1) Does God choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth?
2) Does anyone not chosen get saved?
3) Does anyone chosen for salvation not become saved forever?
4) Does anyone get transferred into Christ who was not drawn by the Father?
5) Does everyone drawn by the Father get transferred into Christ?

Answers
1) Yes
2) No
3) No
4) No
5) No

 

[thatbrian]

I guess it is the right season for chestnuts.
Here are a few more:
1) Does God choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth?
2) Does anyone not chosen get saved?
3) Does anyone chosen for salvation not become saved forever?
4) Does anyone get transferred into Christ who was not drawn by the Father?
5) Does everyone drawn by the Father get transferred into Christ?

Answers
1) Yes
2) No
3) No
4) No
5) No

Q: Is Van on my ignore list?

A: YES!

 

[Sapper Woody]

Q: Is Van on my ignore list?

A: YES!

On some forums, this is known as an "ignore snipe". Where you are shooting at him, but he can't shoot back.

I prefer to call it what it is: a cowardly taunt. You are hiding behind your ignore function so you can't hear his replies, while talking to him, and even taunting him with the fact that he can't reply back to you.

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[TCassidy]

Answers
1) No
2) No
3) No
4) No
5) No

 

[Yeshua1]

I guess it is the right season for chestnuts.
Here are a few more:
1) Does God choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth?
2) Does anyone not chosen get saved?
3) Does anyone chosen for salvation not become saved forever?
4) Does anyone get transferred into Christ who was not drawn by the Father?
5) Does everyone drawn by the Father get transferred into Christ?

Answers
1) Yes
2) No
3) No
4) No
5) No

Dies God grant to His elect the faith needed by them to be used in order to get saved, yes!

 

[Yeshua1]

Must have hit a nerve with that one.

Guess the Lord wants to save all sinners, but due to him having to honor 'free will", He tied his own hands up, and this leads straight into open Theism!

 

[thatbrian]

On some forums, this is known as an "ignore snipe". Where you are shooting at him, but he can't shoot back.

I prefer to call it what it is: a cowardly taunt. You are hiding behind your ignore function so you can't hear his replies, while talking to him, and even taunting him with the fact that he can't reply back to you.

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I might agree if I did that more than once. My post was an announcement to him that he has made it to the top of the list, and it was partially a gracious move because when I don't respond to his future posts he will know why, and he won't waste his time posting to me if he knows that I won't even see it.

Secondly, if you wish to call me names, it would be better to do so to my face. Doing so this way seems to be hypocritical, in light of your post. Some people have a tendency to throw around insults because of their perceived online-autonomy, but they would never speak that way to a brother in person, and they forget that God will hold them accountable for every careless word.

 

[Reynolds]

I completely agree. I've found that those who say, "I'm neither a Calvinist or an Arminian" are in one of two camps. The first, they really don't know much about this subject, and they say something like, "I follow the Bible, not men". The second group knows slightly more, and they just want to be contrary.

The number of people who understand both sides and come up as true Arminians (as you've described in your post) can be counted using my fingers and toes (which is how I normally count, so that works.)

Then you have Classical Arminians, such as myself, who don't believe half of the garbage you think Arminians believe.

 

[Reynolds]

Problem is that there are NO example sin the bible that shows to us one God determined to save resisted Him saving them!

There are plenty examples of men resisting the will of God for their lives. If God. In His sovereignty allows men to resist certain parts of His permissive will, how can you be sure He does not allow them to resist other parts?