Two Salvations?

Simile
SIMILE, n. sim'ily. [L.] In rhetoric, similitude; a comparison of two thing which, however different in other respects, have some strong point or points of resemblance; by which comparison, the character or qualities of a thing are illustrated or presented in an impressive light. Thus, the eloquence of Demosthenes was like a rapid torrent; that of Cicero, like a large stream that glides smoothly along with majestic tranquility.

It would help to understand the snake being lifted up...and Christ being lifted up in this light...how it was intended.

 

Webdog, then can you show me in Scripture that this is a simile. I don't see that anywhere. If you could show me that it is a simile in the Greek text I will even take that.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

To me the langauge is not that of simile, but a direct comparison. The serpent was lifted up for a purpose in the OT in relation to the people and even so the Son of Man is going to be lifted up for a purpose relating to the people.

The people then were saved, and the people in which Jesus came to were saved.

The problem is that Christendom thinks that everyone in the Bible was floating in the same boat they are floating in. And by that I mean that everyone that was in the NT was unsaved (spiritually dead) and needed to be saved by the death and shed blood of Jesus.

But that is looking at Scripture through 21st century glasses instead of letting the Bible speak as God intended for It to speak.

Jesus didn't come to a spiritually dead people. He came to a spiritually alive people delivering a spiritual message that they rejected. He came offering the kingdom, not eternal salvation.

The disciples didn't even believe Jesus was going to die until right up before it happened and some even believe not until it happened. So if that is the case they were called disciples, but didn't even believe in Christ's death, so they couldn't be saved.

There are all kinds of problems that one will run into in this line of thinking.

 

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

How were these people saved, and why were they destroyed?

 

Saved from slavery...destroyed bodily.

 

I checked the foot notes...it doesn't state "this is a similie"

What is the context of both passages? It's not salvation, but faith that leads to salvation. Those inflicted by the snakes only had to have faith and believe if they looked upon Moses' staff they would be saved, in the same way that those inflicted by sin only have to look upon (believe) in the One lifted up on the cross for salvation. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the MK.

 

But how were they saved? Was Israel being led out of Egypt and through the Red Sea not a picture of our salvation? What I'm really asking is, was it by their own works, or was it God's work that saved them? If by their own works, then surely we must save our selves as well. But if it was by God's work, then there was nothing for them to do but believe God and leave. But it says that they were destroyed because they believed not. What did they not believe? Why were they destroyed? These things are given us for an example, what is it an example of? Is it an example of losing our salvation?

 

I always have understood it to mean the drawing away from the old life towards a new, not the actual salvation.

God does the drawing.

They didn't either believe God was the true God, and that's why they continued to worship false gods and idols, or they deliberately worshipped false gods and didn't believe God was true to His Word, and were destroyed.

 

So are you saved, or are you being drawn toward a new life?

This is talking about the Israelites who were wandering in the wilderness, who had the cloud leading them and the rock following them, who saw the Red Sea parted to allow them to cross.

1 Corinthians 10:1-5
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

He goes on to list some of the things that they did that displeased God.

1 Corinthians 10:6-12
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

If a man may drink of Christ (that spiritual rock), and then be destroyed for displeasing God, what does this mean for us? Either we are working for our salvation (or being drawn toward a new life as you put it) or we can lose our salvation, or this is talking about a saved person being destroyed. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

Great question! But in my opinion you have a correct and incorrect portion in your answer. The correct portion is it is not about salvation, and I would agree if you are speaking of eternal salvation. Because these people had already experienced the death and shed blood of the lamb.

The incorrect portion of your answer is that the context is about faith that leads up to salvation. And I say incorrect, because I think you using an eternal salvation context when you speak of salvation and that's not the context at all.

The context is salvation, but it is a salvation from death. And the solution to their problem of being biten by the serpent was that they not only had to believe, but they had to "do" something. They had to believe what God said and then they actually had to look at the serpent that was lifted up.

It was about mixing faith and works, just as the "saved" person today is supposed to mix faith and works if they want to be saved from death. And the death is the loss of their soul.

That is the context.

 

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (Colossians 1:13)

According to this verse, we (the saved) are already positionally in the kingdom of His dear Son Jesus Christ. Don't try to take me out of the kingdom which God has already put me in through my faith in His Son Jesus Christ. The Kingdom Exclusion doctrine is none other than an attempt by the same serpent that beguiled Eve, the same devil that "appears as an angel of light" , the same "roaring lion" that seeks to devour God's children by instilling fear of losing position in Christ.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Romans 11:6)

The "works" are NOT our works--they are "Christ's works" IN US.

 

OK, ME proponants, how do you answer that verse?...

The phrase "Hath translated" is past tense.
Did paul secretly know that he would be part of the kingdom?

 

Actually it is quite the opposite. The serpent has weasled his way into the church and is selling the false idea that everyone's okay if they are saved. And that's just not what the Bible teaches.

Again you can cherry pick verses out of the Bible to prove anything you want to prove, but the "everyone's okay" bit does not hold up to the Scriptural test when you run it through the OT and the NT. Sorry, but it just doesn't.

And once again you have misrepresented what we are trying to say, which is not uncommon at all. It's not an installation of fear of losing one's position "in" Christ. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling so that our position "with" Christ is secure. Christ told Peter if he didn't allow Him to wash his feet that he would have no position "with" Christ.

We are "in" Christ and that is nothing that can EVER be changed. But your positional standing "with" Christ can change, and Christ Himself said so, so we better believe it.

 

Tim we've answered every question that has come around. This question has been answered multiple times in a number of threads. The better question is, is this the question or are there five more questions, 10 more questions before you say hey these guys must be speaking the truth?

How many questions have to be answered, because all I see is answers being given with Scriptural backing and then the same people ridiculing us for answering their own questions.

Not trying to be offensive, just trying to figure out what the "deal" is. Are you still searching for answers to make an informed decision one way or the other? Because to me from some of your recent posts you pretty much have your mind made up, so I'm not sure what good answering yet another question is going to do.

Hope that makes sense.

 

Talkin' to me? If so, is Scripture sarcasm? Where do I exclude?

 

Linda no one has ever disputed that! Of course they are Christ's works in us, but God's grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving man credit as if he did it himself.

Paul said "I" have finished the race. He said "I" have fought the good fight. Do you think Paul was boasting in what "he" did? Of course not. He understood that it was God's work that was being done, but he was getting credit for it as if he was doing it himself.

That's why in Revelation 19:8 we see that the wedding garment is made up of the righteous acts of the saints. The acts are credited to the saints account as if they were their own works.

I don't know why God laid it out in that manner, but He did, so I believe Him!

 

I'm not trying to be offensive.
I have not seen this verse and answer anywhere yet... maybe I missed it.

I do not agree with your doctrine, but I do want to learn all I can about it.

I am just like that.. even though I may not agree, I am not going to condemn you to the pits of Hell. :thumbs:

I am just curious how you can say we may not make it in the kingdom, but yet Paul says we are already in the kingdom. Do we lose the kingdom?

Again, I am not trying to be offensive... This is a totally new doctrine to me, and while I have no plans to embrace it, I still want to know as much as I can about it.

My belief and your belief is not that far off....
I just believe that they will not get kicked out, but put in "time-out" in the corner... kinda like Willie Olsen on Little House on the Prairie.

 

There are five main passages in the NT that are used by those that believe that the kingdom of God is spiritual and in the hearts of men rather than a physical, literal, and future kingdom that shall last one thousand years. These passages are: Luke 17:20-21; Romans 14:17; 1 Corinthians 4:20; Colossians 1:13; and Revelation 1:9.

I did a couple of sermons on this a while back. If you want a transcript of the entire thing, drop me a PM. Because of the interaction at church, and dividing it into two or three sermons as a result of the interaction, I am going to have to re-record the sermon, so it's not online for me to post a link to yet. You will have to have your Bible or e-Sword or something handy to look up the passages that are in brackets, but, as to the pertinent verse of Colossians 1:13:

Another verse that people use to try to promote this fallacy is [Colossians 1:13; power = authority]. Many have wrongly been led to think that the above passage teaches that the kingdom is not future or literal but rather now and spiritual. Let us break down the verse into two parts and thus cover both clauses:

1. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness…” What does it mean when Paul says that God the Father delivered us from the power of darkness? The word “power” can be translated as authority. An authority is someone or something that we submit to or yield ourselves to in order to obey or follow. Therefore, whoever or whatever we let control and guide our behavior is the authority over our lives. For example, the Roman centurion, in [Matthew 8:9], had soldiers under his authority. That’s the same word in the Greek text. This Roman centurion had soldiers under his authority. Those soldiers listened and obeyed his commands! Therefore, to be under “the power of darkness” means that darkness is controlling your life. It means to be controlled by darkness.

[1 John] The apostle John, in 1 John 1:6, tells us that “walking in darkness” is the opposite of practicing “the truth”. [1 John 1:6] The Apostle John is writing to saved people. Saved people can “walk in darkness”. When John refers to “the truth” it is in reference to future things or “things to come” (specifically “the reward of the inheritance,” that we find in Colossians 3:24) which the Holy Spirit, “the Spirit of the truth,” reveals to our understanding.

What is the Spirit of [the] truth? John 16:13 tells us, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of [the] truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” 1 Corinthians 2:9-10 says, “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.” [Ephesians 1:18]

In Colossians, Paul was preaching the truth about “things to come” at the church of Colosse. The message or good news that the saints at Colosse were hearing (the word of the truth of the gospel), we find in [Colossians 1:5; word of the truth]. Paul says “the truth” contains the good news about “the hope which is laid up for you in heaven.” This hope is the inheritance, which is defined for us by comparing it with 1 Peter 1:3-4, which says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (He was raised from the dead, exalted, and given glory, 1 Peter 1:21, and He received His inheritance, Acts 2:33), To [towards] an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you.”

The inheritance is in reference to the Kingdom reward, which comes to the earth when Christ comes again in His glory to rule. Those that inherit the kingdom will rule as overcoming sons with Christ in that kingdom. [Matthew 25:31, 34] [Colossians 3:24; “shall receive; future] [Revelation 22:12] [Revelation 21:7; future, active, indicative]

Therefore, to be to be under “the power of darkness” or “walking in darkness” means that you do not live according to “the truth”. It means that although you may come to know about the truth and the reality of future things, you choose rather to live according to your flesh and are “earthly minded”. You live a lifestyle in which you are not at all prepared or even concerned about these future things, such as the judgment seat of Christ, the resurrection, and ruling and reigning with Christ, “in that day”, in His glorious Kingdom at His second coming. You live only for the things of this present world, blinded by its fleshly pleasures, pride, and your own pursuits. You are under the authority of “the rulers of darkness of this world”. I believe these are demons. Ephesians 6:12 tells us, “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

[Colossians 1] This specific deliverance “from the power of darkness” did not happen to the Colossian saints when they first got saved and became Christians, as is commonly taught. This was a deliverance made possible some time after their initial salvation by teaching and preaching unto them “Christ in you, the hope of glory”. [Colossians 1:27-29]

When Paul writes about “the glory” in [verse 27], it is in reference to the second coming of Christ and His coming kingdom on this earth. Mark 13:26 tells us, “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.” Titus 2:13 says, “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;”

Paul labored in preaching and teaching so that those in the churches would have Christ in them, which is not something mystical, but rather, it is “the hope of glory”. He defines “the hope of glory” in [Colossians 3:4], and that is the message that delivers one from the power of darkness.

God the Father, through Paul’s ministry of the word of the truth, the hope of glory, is now making fit; he’s making ready a group of people to be partakers of the inheritance. [Colossians 1:12-13; qualified=made fit] Notice that Ephesians 5:8 says, “For ye were sometimes darkness (living in the vanity of the mind), but now (delivered from the power of darkness, Colossians 1:13) are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light. Ephesians 5:8, which is a companion passage to Colossians 1:12, shows us that deliverance “from the power of darkness” is so we can walk as children of light.

Those that are called “the saints in the light”, in Colossians 1:12, are they that have been delivered from the power of darkness. They were once in darkness but now they are “light in the Lord”. In other words, being “in the light” is the opposite of having ones lifestyle under “the power of darkness.” Paul defines “the light”, in [2 Corinthians 4:6], which is consistent with his writings in Colossians.

The light of the knowledge of the glory of God is in reference to “the hope of glory”, which is mentioned in Colossians 1:27. It has to do with hope of hearing “well done thou good and faithful servant”. Matthew 25:21, which is part of the parable of the talents, the master says to the faithful servant, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” It was “the light of the knowledge of the glory of God” which shined into the hearts of the Colossian Christians, making “the saints in the light”, delivering them from the power of darkness, which formerly had blinded their minds from seeing the light of the truth.

Now, let’s look at the second part of [Colossians 1:13]: “Hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son.”

This portion of Colossians 1:13 has resulted in a good deal of confusion. It has caused many to believe that the Kingdom is here now in a spiritual form and all Christians enter into the Kingdom at the point of initial salvation. There can be nothing further from the truth! The Kingdom is not spiritual! Rather, it is literal and it comes at the second coming of Christ. Even the thief on the cross that was next to Jesus understood this reality when he said unto Jesus, “Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom”. (Luke 23:42) The kingdom comes when Christ comes again! 2 Timothy 4:1 tells us, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;”

This is also why Paul declared in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that, “flesh and blood (physical bodies) cannot inherit the kingdom of God”. In other words, the Kingdom awaits the future resurrection of the body. It is also recorded that Joseph of Arimathea, “a good and righteous man”, who buried the body of Jesus was someone that “waited for the Kingdom of God”. (Luke 23:50-51; waited – anticipated; imperfect) If the kingdom of God is now, why would Joseph of Arimathea be waiting for it? The literal kingdom reign of Christ is future, not present, and it will last “a thousand years”, as we are told in Revelation 20:6.

[Luke 4:5-6] All the kingdoms of the world are presently under Satan, as we are told in Luke 4:5-6. At the second coming of Christ, they shall be taken over by the Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation 11:15 says, “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ and he shall reign forever and ever”. Anyone who thinks he is ruling in the kingdom today would be ruling under Satan and not the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

The post was too long, so here's the rest of it:

There are several ways to show that that “the kingdom of His dear Son”, which is mentioned in Colossians 1:13, is future and literal, instead of present and spiritual.

First, take careful notice that “the kingdom of His dear Son” is synonymous with “the inheritance of the saints,” mentioned in Colossians 1:12. [Colossians 1:12-13] Comparing scriptures with other scriptures proves that the inheritance is the future Kingdom of God. Matthew 25:34 says, “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:” 1 Corinthians 6:9 tells us, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit [future] the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,” James 2:5 says, “Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?”

[Colossians 3] In the same context in the book of Colossians, Paul writes, in [Colossians 3:24], that the inheritance, which is “the kingdom of His dear Son,” shall be received as a reward for serving Christ. Scripture teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ does not reward His servants now in this present age but rather in the age to come when He returns in His glory to establish His glorious kingdom. [Matthew 16:27] Revelation 22:12 says, “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”

Secondly, the phrase “translated into” in the Greek text can be rendered differently. The word “translated” is the Greek word “methistemi” which can be rendered in the English language to mean, “to change”. The preposition “into” (eis in the Greek text) can also be translated “for”, as in [Colossians 1:16; and for [eis] him], just three verses later.

This translation of the preposition is supported also in Colossian 4:11 where Paul makes the only other mention of “the Kingdom” in the book of Colossians: [Colossians 4:11; for [eis] the Kingdom].

This word, “methistemi”, occurs five times in the New Testament: of putting out of the stewardship, in Luke 16:4; of the removal of Saul from the kingdom, in Acts 13:22; of Paul turning away much people, in Acts 19:26; and of removing mountains, 1 Corinthians 13:2. It has to do with change. In Colossians 1:13, a change of kingdoms is indicated.

Therefore, the phrase “hath translated us into the kingdom” can be translated “hath changed us for the kingdom”. This translation makes more sense within the context and is also consistent with Colossians 4:11 and is generally agreed among scholars to be a better translation. We are not changed into the kingdom of His dear Son, but rather, Gods elect are changed for the kingdom of His dear Son. We need to be changed now, if we desire to enter into the future Kingdom of His dear Son. That change takes place through hearing “the word of the truth the gospel”. If you hear and believe and apply the word of the truth of the gospel to your lives, it will produce “fruit”!

[Colossians 1:4-6; ye heard; fruit] The saints at the local church of Colosse had been changed by the gospel which they had heard from Paul and they were showing forth that change by their lifestyle of faith in Christ Jesus and continual love for the saints. This change was produced in them because of the good news of “the hope which is laid up for them in heaven”. Therefore, a better translation of Colossians 1:13 would be: “Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath changed us for the kingdom of his dear Son.” This translation supports the context of Colossians and remains consistent with the whole of Scripture, which teaches that the Kingdom is literal and future and will begin when Jesus the Christ returns to this earth.

**addendum: As a note, when David was anointed king, Saul was still on the throne. While awaiting to take his throne, there were many who surrounded David and "entered" his kingdom, awaiting the time that he would physically and literally take his throne and they would would then have authority, power, and glory.

 

"Time out" would be one way of looking at it, although it's a pretty serious time out.

BTW, I don't think I mentioned in the above post (the people at church already know this) about the people to whom this was written. Look with me in Colossians 1:2: "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

It's "to the saints" - those who are showing an outward sign of being obedient

plus

To "the faithful brethren" - Sort of redundant, because Matthew 12:50 tells us that "brethren" are those who are doing the will of the Father; "Brethren" are faithful saved people; not everyone who is saved is faithful.

So, this letter is not even written to everyone who is saved; it's written to those who are faithful and obedient. It's written to the ones who have put themselves in alliance with Jesus while awaiting his literal ascension to take the throne from Satan, who is the current ruler.

Edited to add: Although the letter was written to a specific group, I think today that anyone who is saved can look at it and see, "Oh, that's a warning!" and apply it to themselves.