Two Salvations?

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy--

How can the body be destroyed in hell and "purged" at the same time--for 1,000 years? That's highly unlikely! What would be coming out of hell after the 1,000 years?

I suppose, the same thing that is left of an unbeliever after a Kazzillion years of being "destroyed" in the LOF. Clearly the word "destroy" doesn't automatically mean absolute annihilation.

Ge 9:11 -
And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

2Pe 3:6 -
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Context.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

I'm not sure what the point is with Lot. Whether or not he 'repented', if he had stayed in Sodom he would have been partaker with them in their judgment.

Lu 12:46 -
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

:wavey:

 

[webdog]

I'm not sure what the point is with Lot. Whether or not he 'repented', if he had stayed in Sodom he would have been partaker with them in their judgment. What your missing is that it is possible for a 'righteous' person (positionally righteous, saved by the blood) to dwell in Sodom.

Ephesians 5:6-7
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Christians who choose to dwell in Sodom will be partaker of the sins of Sodom, unless they come out of her.

I don't disagree that a righteous person can dwell in "Sodom". The point is...the Kingdom exclusion advocates claim not all Christians are righteous, therefore they are not allowed in the Kingdom (and even go to hell; purgatory) a clear contradiction to Scripture. I use Lot as one example that a Christian not living in obedience to God (carnal) is still righteous.

 

[EdSutton]

He certainly repented of his affinity for Sodom. (He went from pitching his tent toward Sodom, to being a "contributing member of the community, to getting the heck outta Dodge!)
lacy

Uh, I thought he got "Dragged 'the heck out of Dodge'", as he was still "lingering" there, and then was told to "Beat it!", and again, to "get the heck out of Dodge"., cause "Judgment Day is here!" :tonofbricks:

Let's see- .

15 At the crack of dawn the angels urged Lot on: "Get up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment [a] of the city." 16 But he hesitated, so because of the LORD's compassion for him, the men grabbed his hand, his wife's hand, and the hands of his two daughters. And they brought him out and left him outside the city.
17 As soon as the angels got them outside, one of them [b] said, "Run for your lives! Don't look back and don't stop anywhere on the plain! Run to the mountains, or you will be swept away!" (Gen. 19:15-17 - HCSB)

:godisgood:

Then that Biblical "saint of saints", argued with the angels and begged to still hang around the area, :tear: in the suburbs in a little town nearby, that had itself been slated for destruction, and got them to agree not to destroy it. 'Least that's the way I read it! But nothing about his repenting of anything here!! In fact, regardless of what one may happen to deduce, theologically, (and overlooking that three times the Hebrew "shub" is rendered incorrectly as "repent" in the KJV, while hundreds of times correctly as 'turn' or 'return') the word 'nacham'- the Hebrew word for 'repent' is only used in conjunction with one individual (Job), and two groups in the OT (once the 'children of Israel repented for Benjamin' and once Ephraim is said to have repented, in Jeremiah, in any form whatever, and the people of Ninevah are said to have 'repented' at the preaching of Jonah' in the NT. Outside of that, one cannot find any other instances of 'repentance' in the OT, save what one might 'derive' as opposed to what is Scripture actually saying if one wants to overlook the little trivial fact that God is said to have repented or not repented some 30 times, in the OT. Frankly, I consider that fairly significant, and suggest that maybe we typically have a very poor at best, if not entirely incorrect, idea of 'repentance' and what it entails. In fact, I know it!

Ed

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Wonder why Lot was allowed to leave Sodom and escape the judgment? After all, he was not totally righteous, he did allow his daughters to get him drunk afterwards and committed incestual acts with them.

Sound like godly righteousness?

 

[Lacy Evans]

I don't find him repenting of anything. He left Sodom to save his life and that of his family. His selfishness continued when he chose the nicer land to live in...and God "rewarded" him accodingly. He remained righteous the entire time.

This is a rhetorical question, so don't get mad. Is Selfish and righteousness the same thing?

No.

Was Lot selfish or righteous?

YES!

That is my point. We can be absolutely righteous in a positional sense and absolutely selfish in a practical sense. Just like Lot!

A saved person can be "rewarded" accordingly

lacy

 

[ituttut]

Where does Scripture ever say that Lot "repented", of anything? He became the Mayor of Sodom, in actuality. Frankly, one must not be using any of the translations I normally use, if one can find any Scripture that says that Lot "repented". But Scripture certainly does refer to Lot as righteous or just, as well as imply the same, in total, more than any other man or woman in it's pages, as well as, to my knowledge anyway, directly associating and identifying him as the only individual in Scripture specifically referred to as "godly".


He certainly repented of his affinity for Sodom. (He went from pitching his tent toward Sodom, to being a "contributing member of the community, to getting the heck outta Dodge!)

He, they repented (turned to God), but she in her own desire "looked back" longingly for something in that past life. Most say she looked back out of curiosity. I say not for her desire was something back there that made her turn. Something was more important than her faith in what she knew to be the Word of God. We are to pay attention to what God says - when you turn (repent) toward me, there is no looking back, for if you do that is where your desire remains. Genesis 19:17, "And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed."

They received three instructions to escape death. She thought 2 out 3 would do, for after all God is a loving God, and will understand what is in my heart. She found out He does understand what is in our heart.

Remember Kenny Rogers singing "Oh Ruby, don't take your love to town. For God's sake, turn around." Lot's wife turned, but not in faith, so she turned to her desire.

Where do we find our repentance? Is it not in our Lord Jesus Christ? When we turn isn't it there that we find our repentance today? Can the "great commission" do this for us? Must we "repent and then be water baptized for the remission of our sins"? The "Kingdom Church" had to, but are we in that "Kingdom Church"? We are in the "Body Church" by the Grace of God through faith, without the works of the hands to bring us to "repentance".

He says by way of Paul that we are circumcised and baptized "without hands" (Colossians 2:11-14). He says all our trespasses are forgiven when we turn to Him; the law of ordinances is now dead. The ordinances before, and during Pentecost are dead. None are for we, and we are not to look back, longing to be put under the law demanded for those that made covenant with God. There is no longer life that can come by using the hands of man. The Old has been nailed to the Cross, and everything is New. That Old cloth will not, and cannot hold to the New cloth. That which was nailed to the Cross is in direct opposition to us today.

Today it is only by Grace, Through faith that His blood can justify us. With our hands of work, we dilute the work (blood) of our Lord Jesus Christ. Don't we know some churches, that do this, believing the "great commission", that gospel that Peter gives in Acts 2:38 to the Jewish church at Jerusalem?

Can anyone explain why so very many in the various Baptist churches preach, and teach the "great commission", yet deny the gospel contained therein? Is this being "double minded", trying to stand on the "two foundations" of Jesus Christ, of the "Kingdom Church", and the "Body Church"?

 

[Ed Edwards]

This topic continues from:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33712

which read. Thank you.

Oops, this pointer points to
itself. Here is a much better pointer:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33303

Yep, that is the old topic fer shore!

 

[Lacy Evans]

I don't disagree that a righteous person can dwell in "Sodom". The point is...the Kingdom exclusion advocates claim not all Christians are righteous, therefore they are not allowed in the Kingdom.

This is not accurate.

We just divide between "Positional" (Being In Christ, once-saved-always-saved) and "Practical" (Being Like Christ, work out your salvation with fear and trembling). There are two.

Lot is the perfect example.

lacy

 

[webdog]

This is a rhetorical question, so don't get mad. Is Selfish and righteousness the same thing?

No.

Was Lot selfish or righteous?

YES!

That is my point. We can be absolutely righteous in a positional sense and absolutely selfish in a practical sense. Just like Lot!

A saved person can be "rewarded" accordingly

lacy

Selfishness...is what we DO, an action.

Righteousness...is what we ARE, a condition. Are you claiming that if you commit a sin...you are no longer righteous until you confess it? This is wishy washy theology.

 

[James_Newman]

I don't disagree that a righteous person can dwell in "Sodom". The point is...the Kingdom exclusion advocates claim not all Christians are righteous, therefore they are not allowed in the Kingdom (and even go to hell; purgatory) a clear contradiction to Scripture. I use Lot as one example that a Christian not living in obedience to God (carnal) is still righteous.

We have to make a distinction between positional righteousness and practical righteousness. Eternal salvation is a free gift given to all who believe, because of the imputed positional righteousness of Christ. The kingdom is a prize, conditioned upon obedience, allowing the righteousness of Christ to manifest itself through works. In the absolute sense a carnal Christian is righteous, but he is still unrighteous in his practical walk.

1 Corinthians 9:24-25
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Don't you think that Paul understands that a Christian is justified by faith? He did write Romans after all. So why are we told that we are to run to receive a prize, and strive for the mastery to obtain an incorruptible crown?

 

[webdog]

This is not accurate.

We just divide between "Positional" (in Christ, once-saved-always-saved) and Practical (Like Christ, work out your salvation with fear and trembling). There are two.

Lot is the perfect example.

lacy

Another poor example is "working out" our salvation. This IS in regards to our personal salvation, not Kingdom salvation. "Working out" is "exercising" our Christian life, not trying to earn a temporal Kingdom salvation.

 

[webdog]

1 Corinthians 9:24-25
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Don't you think that Paul understands that a Christian is justified by faith? He did write Romans after all. So why are we told that we are to run to receive a prize, and strive for the mastery to obtain an incorruptible crown?

The "prize" is not Kingdom dwelling, it's what's mentioned in verse 25...an incorruptible crown (rewards), not admittance into the Kingdom. How do you even read that into the passage?!?

 

[James_Newman]

Philippians 3:14
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

What is the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus?

 

[webdog]

Philippians 3:14
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

What is the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus?

Heavenly reward...not Heavenly admittance. The MK is Heaven, is it not?

 

[James_Newman]

The millennial kingdom is Christs reign on earth over natural nations, and those who reign with him will reign on the earth. 'Heaven' if you want to refer to eternity that way doesn't start until after the thousand years.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Selfishness...is what we DO, an action.

Righteousness...is what we ARE, a condition. Are you claiming that if you commit a sin...you are no longer righteous until you confess it? This is wishy washy theology.

Righteousness can be something we "do" too.

Le 19:15 -
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour
Le 19:35 -
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

"Wishy washy?"

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Ye shall not do unrigtheousness in judgment.

Yet you do do unrighteousness in judgment by putting the saved outside of God's kingdom when His Word speaks otherwise.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Yet you do do unrighteousness in judgment by putting the saved outside of God's kingdom when His Word speaks otherwise.

You assume the thing to be proven. Bad form.

Lacy

 

[webdog]

Righteousness can be something we "do" too.

Le 19:15 -
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour
Le 19:35 -
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

"Wishy washy?"

The Hebrew word the KJV translates as "righteousness" (avel) means simply wickedness / injustice. The ESV is more accurate in it's rendering of the passges you cite:

Lev 19:15 "You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.