Two Salvations?

[Hope of Glory]

Endure what? Endure sufferings. KJV was right to use the word suffer in this verse. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecutions. If we suffer, we will reign with Him.

Let's see... enduring...

Works.

Jesus is speaking to the unsaved here. Surely you don't believe that these 5,000+ people He was speaking to were all saved?

Oh, let's see.... Yep: Works again.

Those who do not enter the kingdom will be the unsaved. Look at how they lie trying to get in in the following verses. Even going as far as saying they cast out devil's in His name. Since satan cannot cast out satan, they had to be lying. These in Matthew are unsaved.

Let's see, Jesus never denied that they were casting out demons in his name. In fact, he says that Satan cannot cast out Satan elsewhere.

But, no matter...

Works again

This is not speaking for exile from the kingdom for the saved. Look at verse 4. He says one who is humbled like a child will be greatest in the kingdom. Therefore one who is not quite as humble as that child will be less great, but still in the kingdom. The key in verse 3 is 'Except ye be converted'. Except ye Repent. Christ was teaching the disciples to preach repentance from sin.

Converting is changing your walk, so...

Works!

Look at John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

They're disciples (saved), and it's talking about...

Works!

Many will put their hand to the plough. Many will make professions of faith, yet not have Christ in their hearts. Many will believe false prophets who do not preach sanctification (Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and I will receive you.)

One more time...

Works!


So, we're saved by our works! I see it now!

Not really, but these are the same passages that many, including SFiC and DPT (I think it was SFiC) would use to prove that without works you can lose your spiritual salvation.

So, is our salvation by our works? Can we lose our spiritual salvation?

Or, is this talking about something else, since it's all talking about works?

 

[Hope of Glory]

There is no condition for the saved. The kingdom is theirs according to the precious Word of God.

Well, you're quite correct that there is no condition for spiritual salvation, other than "believe on the Lord Jesus". He's done all the work for that, and it's a perfect work.

But, you miss the mark when you think that entering the Kingdom is unconditional.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

those who are saved will not miss the mark at all. they will all enter the kingdom

 

[standingfirminChrist]

To preach to someone that is saved that they may not enter the kingdom prepared for those who love the Lord, is preaching no hope to them at all.

What kind of person would want to serve a god who would cast them away into outer darkness after they gave their hearts to him? After they accepted his son's price for the only payment needed for their sins they are still turned away?

I don't serve a god like that. I serve a God who saved me and assured all who would place their trust in His Son entrance into His kingdom.

 

[tinytim]

To preach to someone that is saved that they may not enter the kingdom prepared for those who love the Lord, is preaching no hope to them at all.

What kind of person would want to serve a god who would cast them away into outer darkness after they gave their hearts to him? After they accepted his son's price for the only payment needed for their sins they are still turned away?

I don't serve a god like that. I serve a God who saved me and assured all who would place their trust in His Son entrance into His kingdom.

I actually know a man that says he is saved, but is not expecting to go to Heaven... His reason, he is divorced and remarried...

He says he is living in adultery, and therefore when he dies, he will go to Hell... but he still says he is saved... he loves Jesus so much that he wants to serve God even if God were to send him to Hell. He is very active, and I can see the Holy Spirit working through him.. I just wish He had a real hope.

 

[tinytim]

Please tell me how the doctrine of kingdom exclusion differs from this doctrine of the Mormons....
This is from one of my e-sword modules called, "Index of cults and religions" Here is how they describe The Church of Latter Day Saints, and it sounds pretty close to what is being taught here.

"
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The, Joseph Smith, Salt Lake City, UT: (Latter-day Saints, LDS, Mormonism) Main body of Mormonism; recognizes Brigham Young as Smith's successor. Smith claimed that the Father and Son appeared to him and called him to restore the true Church. LDS Church teaches that God the Father was once a man and was exalted to Godhood. God (and his heavenly Wife) begat billions of spirit children, the firstborn of whom was Jesus. Lucifer was the leader of God's rebellious spirit children. Those spirits who did not rebel become human beings in order to begin process potentially leading to exaltation to Godhood. Jesus, however, became a God while only a spirit. He organized our world and is Jehovah, the God of Israel. He is a separate and subordinate God to Elohim, the Father. A distinction is made between the Holy Ghost, who is a personage of Spirit, and the Holy Spirit. The latter is a divine energy, force, or spiritual essence that fills the universe and is used by all three members of the Godhead in the exercise and accomplishment of their will. The Church rejects the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. It also redefines salvation by grace to refer simply to resurrection. Almost all humans will be resurrected into one of three kingdoms of glory, the least of which is far superior to anything known in this life. Entry into the higher kingdoms, and one's rank there, depends not only upon the atonement of Christ, but also upon one's good works. Achievement of the highest potential within the highest kingdom-Godhood-requires complete "obedience to all the laws and ordinances of the gospel." The Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants are all considered scripture. Publishes Church News and Ensign magazine. "

 

[Diggin in da Word]

sounds like the same basic doctrine, tim

ya know, kingdom exclusion does away with the least in the kingdom and puts them outside.

 

[J. Jump]

I just wish He had a real hope.

If he confesses his sin of adultery God is faithful and just to forgive him of that sin according to I John 1:9. I don't see where this man has no hope. He just needs to be taught that he does have a hope.

 

[tinytim]

I've tried, but he is convinced... He feels he should be thankful for being allowed to serve God in this life.

 

[J. Jump]

Please tell me how the doctrine of kingdom exclusion differs from this doctrine of the Mormons....

Well for starters there is just one kingdom, not three kingdoms. You either enter the kingdom of you do not. Now there are different levels of rulership as we see the disciples asking about the greatest in the kingdom. So there are different levels. I believe it was HoG that talked about mayors, govenors, presidents, etc. That's probably as decent a way to look at things as I can tell from what we have to work with.

Mankind was created to rule over the earth. Mankind disqualified himself in the garden. Jesus is to redeem what man has forfeited. He is going to rule over the earth and is offering positions within His rule. We can associate ourselves with Him and do what He requires to be found worthy or we can blow off the offer just as the children of Israel did.

You can see this in the OT type of Saul and David. It is awesome! Saul was king appointed by God, but he disqualified himself and David was appointed king even while Saul was actually still ruling. David went away and hid on a mountain if I'm not mistaken and while there a group of men became unhappy with the current state of affairs and joined themselves to David. David prepared them for rulership and when David ascended the throne then these men was placed in positions of rulership within David's kingdom.

I know that's not a very detailed look, but that's the basic general outline.

Someone sent me a message today and was very thankful for finding out about the kingdom message, because they said some of the passages of the Bible make sense now and make no sense without the kingdom understanding.

 

[J. Jump]

I've tried, but he is convinced... He feels he should be thankful for being allowed to serve God in this life.

Do you know whether or not he has confessed this matter to the Lord? If so it seems he is holding onto something that Christ's blood is covering. Just a guess from a WAY outside perspective

 

[Lacy Evans]

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

This verse says that when we are saved (there is only ONE salvation), we are sanctified (set apart for God's service) entirely (body, soul, and spirit).

This verse is Paul's prayer that God will preserve saved Christians, and keep them blameless UNTO Christ's coming (The Judgment seat Of Christ).

Look who it is addressed to

1 Thessalonians 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

They are already saved. How in the world can you make this verse say, "And the very God of peace save the saved?"

Lacy

 

[ituttut]

sounds like the same basic doctrine, tim

ya know, kingdom exclusion does away with the least in the kingdom and puts them outside.

Just as a car will not operate properly for its owner if water is mixed with the gas, a Christian cannot function properly for God if he mixes alcohol with the Holy Spirit.

Where do you see John the Baptist finally ending up, outside the kingdom?

Poor Noah; Poor Paul, and Timothy. They thought surely that was blood and water that came out of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Ok you guys are really starting to confound me with your [sarcasm]objective scriptural objections[/sarcasm]
to Millennial exclusion.

Lacy

 

[Hope of Glory]

I actually know a man that says he is saved, but is not expecting to go to Heaven... His reason, he is divorced and remarried...

He says he is living in adultery, and therefore when he dies, he will go to Hell... but he still says he is saved... he loves Jesus so much that he wants to serve God even if God were to send him to Hell. He is very active, and I can see the Holy Spirit working through him.. I just wish He had a real hope.

Does he believe that his spiritual salvation is based on his works or on the perfect work of the Lord Jesus on the cross? If he thinks he is saved by his own works, then he's going to remain hopeless, especially as long as he thinks that he's continuing to live in adultery.

 

[Hope of Glory]

How do we know where the line is so we don't cross it?

Well, to quote a source that I don't really like: We never know where that line is until we cross it.

Of course, this only applies in cases in which there is a line. IOW, since our spiritual salvation is secure and cannot be lost or forfeited, there is no line. However, if we could lose it, but the Scriptures didn't give us the line, then there's only one way we would know what it is.

But, why try to find the line? God instructs us to be obedient. If we're disobedient (or if we simply don't care whether we are or not), does that make us unsaved?

If you say "yes" to the question, then it's a discussion about spiritual salvation, which is fine.

If you say "no" to the question, then what is obedience (works) required for?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Matthew 7:13-14: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Certain people here see the works involved, but apply it to spiritual salvation. They say, "If you don't walk the narrow road, you'll lose your salvation (or you never were saved)".

However, there are many who see that spiritual salvation is secure, and it's a gift and not something based on works, yet try to say that we have to stick to the narrow path (works) or we're not saved.

It's works.

Is it about our everlasting salvation or not?

 

[Linda64]

The Rod: Will God Spare It? Second Edition. By J.D. Faust. Hayesville, NC: Schoettle Publishing Co.

What happens when a Christian sins? Depending on the nature and extent of the sin, a Calvinist would say that the Christian is not a Christian at all—he was not saved to begin with as evidenced by the fact that he did not persevere in holiness until the end of his life. Similarly, an Arminian would say that the Christian lost his salvation because he did not persevere in holiness until the end of his life. Others would say that since Christ has forgiven our sins already that nothing happens—there is no future recompense. Still others would say that once a Christian obtains a certain level of spirituality or receives the second blessing or gets the anointing, etc. that he no longer actually sins. Most readers of this publication are premillennialists who would agree that even though a Christian is eternally secure, he should strive to live a holy life and avoid sin, that a Christian can suffer the consequences of sin and receive chastisement from God in this life, that all Christians will give an account of themselves at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and that at this judgment, a Christian can receive rewards or suffer loss. J. [Joey] D. Faust, the pastor of Kingdom (formerly Refuge) Baptist Church in Venus, Texas, and the publisher of a weekly e-mail newsletter (The Kingdom Alert) is a premillennialist who takes the Judgment Seat of Christ a step further—quite a bit further.

The Rod: Will God Spare It? is Faust’s “exhaustive study of temporary punishment for unfaithful Christians at the Judgment Seat and during the Millennial Kingdom.” This is actually the third edition of this book. The first was a “trial balloon” with the slightly different title of Will God Spare the Rod? The (true) second and third editions differ in many ways from this “pre-publication edition.” The differences between the editions of The Rod: Will God Spare It? appear to be slight. Most noticeably, there is an additional entry in the glossary, the general index is a little different, and a Scripture index has been added.


Laurence M. Vance

Vance Publications

Pensacola, FL

The entire review can be found here:

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/faust.htm

Great review by Laurence Vance.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The more I read of Faust's work, the more I think I need to get the book. He seems to be spot-on in everything I've seen.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The more I read of Faust's book, the more I thank God for giving me the discernment to know the doctrine of kingdom exclusion is a false doctrine.