Two Salvations?

Let's see... enduring...

Works.

Oh, let's see.... Yep: Works again.

Let's see, Jesus never denied that they were casting out demons in his name. In fact, he says that Satan cannot cast out Satan elsewhere.

But, no matter...

Works again

Converting is changing your walk, so...

Works!

They're disciples (saved), and it's talking about...

Works!

One more time...

Works!


So, we're saved by our works! I see it now!

Not really, but these are the same passages that many, including SFiC and DPT (I think it was SFiC) would use to prove that without works you can lose your spiritual salvation.

So, is our salvation by our works? Can we lose our spiritual salvation?

Or, is this talking about something else, since it's all talking about works?

 

Well, you're quite correct that there is no condition for spiritual salvation, other than "believe on the Lord Jesus". He's done all the work for that, and it's a perfect work.

But, you miss the mark when you think that entering the Kingdom is unconditional.

 

those who are saved will not miss the mark at all. they will all enter the kingdom

 

To preach to someone that is saved that they may not enter the kingdom prepared for those who love the Lord, is preaching no hope to them at all.

What kind of person would want to serve a god who would cast them away into outer darkness after they gave their hearts to him? After they accepted his son's price for the only payment needed for their sins they are still turned away?

I don't serve a god like that. I serve a God who saved me and assured all who would place their trust in His Son entrance into His kingdom.

 

I actually know a man that says he is saved, but is not expecting to go to Heaven... His reason, he is divorced and remarried...

He says he is living in adultery, and therefore when he dies, he will go to Hell... but he still says he is saved... he loves Jesus so much that he wants to serve God even if God were to send him to Hell. He is very active, and I can see the Holy Spirit working through him.. I just wish He had a real hope.

 

Please tell me how the doctrine of kingdom exclusion differs from this doctrine of the Mormons....
This is from one of my e-sword modules called, "Index of cults and religions" Here is how they describe The Church of Latter Day Saints, and it sounds pretty close to what is being taught here.

"
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The, Joseph Smith, Salt Lake City, UT: (Latter-day Saints, LDS, Mormonism) Main body of Mormonism; recognizes Brigham Young as Smith's successor. Smith claimed that the Father and Son appeared to him and called him to restore the true Church. LDS Church teaches that God the Father was once a man and was exalted to Godhood. God (and his heavenly Wife) begat billions of spirit children, the firstborn of whom was Jesus. Lucifer was the leader of God's rebellious spirit children. Those spirits who did not rebel become human beings in order to begin process potentially leading to exaltation to Godhood. Jesus, however, became a God while only a spirit. He organized our world and is Jehovah, the God of Israel. He is a separate and subordinate God to Elohim, the Father. A distinction is made between the Holy Ghost, who is a personage of Spirit, and the Holy Spirit. The latter is a divine energy, force, or spiritual essence that fills the universe and is used by all three members of the Godhead in the exercise and accomplishment of their will. The Church rejects the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. It also redefines salvation by grace to refer simply to resurrection. Almost all humans will be resurrected into one of three kingdoms of glory, the least of which is far superior to anything known in this life. Entry into the higher kingdoms, and one's rank there, depends not only upon the atonement of Christ, but also upon one's good works. Achievement of the highest potential within the highest kingdom-Godhood-requires complete "obedience to all the laws and ordinances of the gospel." The Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants are all considered scripture. Publishes Church News and Ensign magazine. "

 

sounds like the same basic doctrine, tim

ya know, kingdom exclusion does away with the least in the kingdom and puts them outside.

 

If he confesses his sin of adultery God is faithful and just to forgive him of that sin according to I John 1:9. I don't see where this man has no hope. He just needs to be taught that he does have a hope.

 

I've tried, but he is convinced... He feels he should be thankful for being allowed to serve God in this life.

 

Well for starters there is just one kingdom, not three kingdoms. You either enter the kingdom of you do not. Now there are different levels of rulership as we see the disciples asking about the greatest in the kingdom. So there are different levels. I believe it was HoG that talked about mayors, govenors, presidents, etc. That's probably as decent a way to look at things as I can tell from what we have to work with.

Mankind was created to rule over the earth. Mankind disqualified himself in the garden. Jesus is to redeem what man has forfeited. He is going to rule over the earth and is offering positions within His rule. We can associate ourselves with Him and do what He requires to be found worthy or we can blow off the offer just as the children of Israel did.

You can see this in the OT type of Saul and David. It is awesome! Saul was king appointed by God, but he disqualified himself and David was appointed king even while Saul was actually still ruling. David went away and hid on a mountain if I'm not mistaken and while there a group of men became unhappy with the current state of affairs and joined themselves to David. David prepared them for rulership and when David ascended the throne then these men was placed in positions of rulership within David's kingdom.

I know that's not a very detailed look, but that's the basic general outline.

Someone sent me a message today and was very thankful for finding out about the kingdom message, because they said some of the passages of the Bible make sense now and make no sense without the kingdom understanding.

 

Do you know whether or not he has confessed this matter to the Lord? If so it seems he is holding onto something that Christ's blood is covering. Just a guess from a WAY outside perspective

 

Where do you see John the Baptist finally ending up, outside the kingdom?

Poor Noah; Poor Paul, and Timothy. They thought surely that was blood and water that came out of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

 

Does he believe that his spiritual salvation is based on his works or on the perfect work of the Lord Jesus on the cross? If he thinks he is saved by his own works, then he's going to remain hopeless, especially as long as he thinks that he's continuing to live in adultery.

 

Well, to quote a source that I don't really like: We never know where that line is until we cross it.

Of course, this only applies in cases in which there is a line. IOW, since our spiritual salvation is secure and cannot be lost or forfeited, there is no line. However, if we could lose it, but the Scriptures didn't give us the line, then there's only one way we would know what it is.

But, why try to find the line? God instructs us to be obedient. If we're disobedient (or if we simply don't care whether we are or not), does that make us unsaved?

If you say "yes" to the question, then it's a discussion about spiritual salvation, which is fine.

If you say "no" to the question, then what is obedience (works) required for?

 

Matthew 7:13-14: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Certain people here see the works involved, but apply it to spiritual salvation. They say, "If you don't walk the narrow road, you'll lose your salvation (or you never were saved)".

However, there are many who see that spiritual salvation is secure, and it's a gift and not something based on works, yet try to say that we have to stick to the narrow path (works) or we're not saved.

It's works.

Is it about our everlasting salvation or not?

 

Great review by Laurence Vance.

 

The more I read of Faust's work, the more I think I need to get the book. He seems to be spot-on in everything I've seen.

 

The more I read of Faust's book, the more I thank God for giving me the discernment to know the doctrine of kingdom exclusion is a false doctrine.