Two Salvations?

Subset of the saved?

What kind of nonsense is that?

 

:laugh: :laugh:

 

This is a reference to the called out of the called. There are many that are called, but few that are chosen (or called out of the called). There are many that are saved (broad is the way that leads to destruction and MANY there be that find it), but there are few that are chosen (narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be that find it).

It's not an eternal salvation issue, it's a kingdom issue.

 

Don't know what Cracker Jacks Bible that is taken from, but my Bible teaches me those one the broad road to destruction are not saved.

 

If the saved are on the broad way leading to destruction, how then can they be Saved?

Sorta reminds me of the poor lamb that survived the flood....
How excited he was to step on land again, after all that agonizing time on the Ark.


Only to be sacrificed at the hands of NOah!

I am saved therefore I will not be destroyed....
It is a promise. From GOD

"Shall never Perish"

 

If I may...

I think what this thread is about is the difference between being saved in this life and being saved in eternity. My favorite verse that distinguishes this is Rom 5:10 -- "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

Reconciled by His death -- this is eternal life in the hereafter. It is the spiritual side of salvation and comes first. It is anticipated in the "born again" experience -- the "new creation" that a persons spirit is given life from the moment of repentance and forever after!

Reconciled by His life -- this is "the abundant life." This is obedience which leads to salvation from "hell on earth" if I might call sin and chastisement and the wrath of God "hell on earth." This clearly involves "works" and is comprehended by the verse that says "work to make your calling and election sure."

Have you all heard of this before? The latter "salvation" sometimes appears in people who are not saved. It is possible to take advantage of the earthly blessings of salvation without ever being saved spiritually (esp. true in the MK). IMO Calvinists often think they are "elect" because of this but they have never made a decision to receive Christ. Ergo, saved by His life, but not by His death. Does that make sense to you all?

skypair

 

Because it is their soul that is going to be destroyed. It is "their will" that will be destroyed.

The Bible says that if you will lose your life now you will find it in the coming age, but if you save your life now you will lose it in the coming age. Again that is said to believers in regard to believers.

The word translated life is the same Greek word for soul. Your soul is your will, your agenda, your wants, your desires, etc. And if you hold on to your wants in this life you are going to have those destroyed in the coming age, because when you step out into eternity there is going to be NO room for the "I" attitude. God wants absolute obedience. And if we don't learn that now we will learn it for 1,000 years so that when we step into eternity we will be prepared to do the will of God, not the will of myself.

That's what that is talking about. And that is how saved people can be in view. Again unsaved folks aren't even in view in those statements, because those statments are made to believers in regard to themselves.

That is a conditional promise though Tim, therefore it is not in regard to eternal salvation, because there are no conditions placed on eternal salvation. There are however conditions placed on entrance into the kingdom and the saving of ones soul. And if those conditions are not met then a saved individual will have their soul perish.

 

The only conditions on entrance to the kingdom for the saved are coming from you guys and not from the Word of God.

 

Well let's just see if your statement stands up against Scripture shall we?

II Timothy 2:12 - If we endure, we will also reign with Him;

Can't reign if you are not in the kingdom and you can't enter the kingdom if you don't endure. Seems to be a pretty clear cut Scriptural condition. So it doesn't look like your statement holds to the Truth of Scripture. Let's just see if there are some more so that we can't be accused of cherry picking.

Matthew 5:20 - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 18:3 - And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Check out Matthew 25 and why the sheep were allowed into the kingdom and the goats were not. It was conditional.

Mark 10:15 - Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 9:62 - And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

I Corinthians 6:9-10 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
I Corinthians 15:50 - Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Galatians 5:21 - Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5 - For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

II Timothy 1:5 - Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:


That's just a few. It is quite clear that entrance into the kingdom is conditional.

 

According to Romans 5:17, those who have been given abundant grace (saved), those who have been given the gift of righteousness (saved), shall reign in life (eternal).

 

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

This verse says that when we are saved (there is only ONE salvation), we are sanctified (set apart for God's service) entirely (body, soul, and spirit).

 

Compare entering the kingdom to:

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Am I really supposed to think that they are talking about the same thing? One is by 'believe' and one is by 'suffer'.

 

Why do we as Christians have so much trouble with grammar? Either Paul is praying for these people to get saved, or he is praying for saved people to be preserved blameless.

 

Endure what? Endure sufferings. KJV was right to use the word suffer in this verse. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecutions. If we suffer, we will reign with Him.

So it doesn't look like your statement holds to the Truth of Scripture. Let's just see if there are some more so that we can't be accused of cherry picking.

Jesus is speaking to the unsaved here. Surely you don't believe that these 5,000+ people He was speaking to were all saved?

Those who do not enter the kingdom will be the unsaved. Look at how they lie trying to get in in the following verses. Even going as far as saying they cast out devil's in His name. Since satan cannot cast out satan, they had to be lying. These in Matthew are unsaved.

This is not speaking for exile from the kingdom for the saved. Look at verse 4. He says one who is humbled like a child will be greatest in the kingdom. Therefore one who is not quite as humble as that child will be less great, but still in the kingdom. The key in verse 3 is 'Except ye be converted'. Except ye Repent. Christ was teaching the disciples to preach repentance from sin.

That is judgment of the nations. After the tribulation. These are not the believers, these are ones entering the kingdom in mortal bodies; those who have endured to the end.

Those who do not receive the kingdom are not saved.

Look at John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

and

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Many will put their hand to the plough. Many will make professions of faith, yet not have Christ in their hearts. Many will believe false prophets who do not preach sanctification (Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and I will receive you.)

These two passages are not speaking of the saved. Look at verse 11 of chapter 6. Paul said, 'But such were some of you, but ye are washed...'

Another clue that this is the unsaved he is speaking about is the sixth word in 1 Corinthians 6:9 'unrighteous'. We who are in Christ are not unrighteous. We have been clothed in His righteousness. We are made worthy to enter the kingdom, not by our own merit, but because of His purity.

 

Yes, blessed are the saved, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Oh wait, thats not what the bible says.

Matthew 5:3-10
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Paul and Timothy may have been suffering, but I didn't see my name or yours in there anywhere. It's nothing but foolishness to pretend that all Christians automatically become obedient servants.

 

Matthew 5:1-2
1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

The sermon on the mount was to His disciples, not unsaved people.

 

Here is what the verse says in the NASB:

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is a may not a will. It is a may because unfaithful Christians will not experience this at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful Christians will.

The verbs used in this passage are in the optative mood, which means - generally used in the so-called "fourth-class" conditions which express a wish or desire for an action to occur in which the completion of such is
doubtful.

 

Well you keep on believing that if you want to and you keep on wiggling out of the plain unaltered reading of Scripture if you want to, but the Bible clearly says entrance into the kingdom is conditional and I'll choose to believe that.

You have not supported your stance Biblically or otherwise other than to say Christ was speaking to unsaved folks. I disagree with you. The kingdom is only for believers and if the kingdom is the context then only saved people are in view.

An unsaved person can not even understand the kingdom much less understand what Christ spoke of in regard to the kingdom.

The bottom line is your position is just not supported Bibically, but you are entitled to believe what you want to believe. My heart aches for you!

 

......................

 

The verb in this verse is optative, not indicative. It's a probable failure. It's a hope, not something that is definite.