Two Salvations?

[Lacy Evans]

A Christian acts like a Christian.

Always? Come on, what practical value could that doctrine have? A Christian has free will just like any other man and can (and has) commit(ed) every conceivable sin. Does Christ chasten us for "acting like Christ?" Of course not, He chastens us when we act like the Devil.

Paul warns us over and over not to act like the world? Why warn us if it's not possible? Heck, why warn us if it's not likely?

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

KJV Ephesians 5:6-7
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

. . . f a Christian doesn't act like a Christian, they are not a Christian.

That is a really strong statement. Should I be looking to my good works for assurance? If I don't act like Christ in a particular circumstance, do I doubt my Christianity? I don't think you can back up this statement with scripture or even a historical person who ever lived up to it.

Granted, A christian can goof up, but to live in unrepentant sin is impossible if a person is truly saved.

What if he dies before he repents?

Lacy

 

[tinytim]

This could open up all kinds of cans of worms here.

This is one reason, why I don't specialize in eschatology.
I don't think we can 100% guarantee what will happen.

The Pharisees thought they had eschatology down pat, and missed Jesus.
We should learn from them, and never think we have all the answers.

 

[Lacy Evans]

This could open up all kinds of cans of worms here.

This is one reason, why I don't specialize in eschatology.
I don't think we can 100% guarantee what will happen.

The Pharisees thought they had eschatology down pat, and missed Jesus.
We should learn from them, and never think we have all the answers.

AMEN! That is wise counsel.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end,
the same shall be saved.

The truth of that proposition is independant of the truth
of this proposition:

He that shall NOT endure unto the end,
the same shall NOT be saved.

So the scripture here does NOT support the latter
proposition. In fact, what scripture does support
the latter proposition? I hear it supported FROM SCRIPTURE
a lot, but this AIN'T the scripture.

 

[webdog]

So,
2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Really says
12 Since we suffer, we shall also reign with him: Since we deny him, he also will deny us:
That makes me feel a lot better, and I know it should you as well.

...kinda like the word if being used in John 12:32...

Romans 8:17 should make you feel good.

 

[webdog]

Lacy, JJump, James...any of you ever going to answer Tim's questions that he has asked?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

That's simple, if a person truly believes they will endure.
The Holy Spirit seals us, and provides the endurance.

We are created a new creature...We are. I just got through reading some pamphlets that J.Jump pmed me, and in one of them it said that since the Jews rejected Christ as king, God created a new creature..

The church is not a new creature, each Christian is.
And as a new creature, I will act like a new creature.

A dog acts like a dog, a cow acts like a cow, a Christian acts like a Christian.

If a dog meows it is not a dog, if a cow lays eggs it is not a cow, and if a Christian doesn't act like a Christian, they are not a Christian.

Granted, A christian can goof up, but to live in unrepentant sin is impossible if a person is truly saved.

Amen. Just because one calls oneself a christian, doesn't make him one. I could say I am a millionaire and still have to scratch up 2 or 3 dollars for a meal.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Interesting that J.Jump would be promoting Nostra Aetate, which is not even Baptist doctine. It is Church of Christ.

The second draft of Nostra Aetate states that the church is a new creature, using Ephesians 2:15 as proof text.

J.Jump, you sure you're Baptist?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end,
the same shall be saved.

The truth of that proposition is independant of the truth
of this proposition:

He that shall NOT endure unto the end,
the same shall NOT be saved.

So the scripture here does NOT support the latter
proposition. In fact, what scripture does support
the latter proposition? I hear it supported FROM SCRIPTURE
a lot, but this AIN'T the scripture.

So is the verse not telling us to endure? It is really telling us that we will automatically endure?

How about these:

Galatians 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

True meaning? We can't really faint so don't worry about it?

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

True meaning? We are full partakers automatically if we are saved and will automatically hold fast so don't worry about it?


Am I getting it?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy, JJump, James...any of you ever going to answer Tim's questions that he has asked?

I thought I had. Which ones did I skip and I'll try my best to answer them.

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Interesting that J.Jump would be promoting Nostra Aetate, which is not even Baptist doctine. It is Church of Christ.

It's Roman Catholic. Man you are really digging deep now. where do you come up with this stuff? You haven't said anything objective in a couple of days.

lacy

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Nostra Aetate is said to be Church of Christ on Wikipedia... or does the Catholic Church call itself Church of Christ?

 

[ituttut]

Work sheet was posted in error.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The Hebrew word the KJV translates as "righteousness" (avel) means simply wickedness / injustice. The ESV is more accurate in it's rendering of the passges you cite:

Lev 19:15 "You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.

Same word. "Just" and "righteous" are translated from the same word in the NT. The LXX uses the same word here, as well.

"Unrighteousness" and "injustice" are the same idea in English and are translated from the same Greek word.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Do you suffer? You should. If you don't, you may not be part of the Lord's body...

This sounds like, "We're not saved by our works, be we're saved by our works."

 

[Hope of Glory]

What's been argued here as the tougher requirements for entrance into the Millenial Kingdom than the requirement for entering Heaven is in reality the requirement for eternal salvation. Period. Don't like the reference to following Christ as Lord? Sorry, that's the Biblical standard.

OK, even though you equate the Kingdom with spiritual salvation, at least you see that works are involved.

So, you either have to accept a works-based salvation, or it has to apply to something else.

You apply the works to spiritual salvation, a position with which I disagree, but at least you see that works are involved.

I find it quite ironic that you and DPT see the works, although you don't believe in the security of the believer, yet those who hold to the security of a believer, seem to shut their eyes to the works requirement or they claim that works aren't really works.

 

[ituttut]

In the doctrine of Kingdom exclusion... is it teaching that there are 2 salvations.... one, eternal salvation, and two, kingdom salvation.

One is conditional on what Christ did
two is conditional on what we do?

Is that the correct way to look at it?

If so, then a person can be saved for eternity, but for a 1000 yrs be cut off from Christ?

It would seem that a person would have to believe in a literal 1000 yr reign also....

And is the kingdom of Heaven, kingdom of Heavens, and kingdom of God, kingdom of Christ all the same, or are there differences? [ quote]

Well, I'll try again. I believe the "correct" way to look at it is, the "Kingdom Church", and the "Body Church". Also the "correct" way to look at this is there are 2 gospels; one is justification by faith, and one of justification through faith, these differences being shown on page 3, this subject.

Again let's use scripture a little more pointedly, and keep it simple:

Kingdom Church: II Samuel 7:10-17 (Covenant Israel) Matthew 10:5-7, and 24:14.

Body Church: Galatians 1:11-12 Acts 20:24 Gospel to the Gentile (all now).
====================================================
Kingdom Church: Adds believers (Acts 2:41).

Body Church: Birth announced - Body Church (Acts 13.2).

NEXT EVENT

Kingdom Church, and all others: *&$#(@!!! What happened? I Thessalonians 4:16-18.
=====================================================
Body Church: Rapture: Believers resurrected, then those alive caught-up to be with our Lord forever. I Thessalonians 4:16-18.

Kingdom Church: Tribulation: K Church goes through. Jer. 30:4-11; Joel 2:31; Matt. 24:4-42; Revelations 1:1-19: chapter 21.
=====================================================
Body Church: In heaven with our Lord.

Kingdom Church: Kingdom Israel (millennium) - Acts 1:6; 3:19-21
=====================================================
Body Church: We were never promised a rose garden.


Kingdom Church: The Lamb's wife, Israel His Bride, Rev. 19:7-8.
=======================================================
Body Church: Body Church already part of the Groom. I Cor. 12:12-13; II Cor. 11:2; Revelation 19:9.

 

[J. Jump]

Interesting that J.Jump would be promoting Nostra Aetate, which is not even Baptist doctine. It is Church of Christ.

The second draft of Nostra Aetate states that the church is a new creature, using Ephesians 2:15 as proof text.

J.Jump, you sure you're Baptist?

What in the world are you even talking about? Why not just deal in Scripture instead of just making stuff up to put people in a bad light? You don't have to answer that, as I'm pretty sure of the answer.

For your information I don't even know who or what NOstra Aetate is. And yes I have been a member of a Southern Baptist church since I was saved in 1988 if that makes a difference.

 

[J. Jump]

I don't remember who it was that brought up the term Christian and said it means Christ-like so therefore all Christians are Christ-like in their living.

The term was not given to believers by God, by Christ or by the Spirit or by other believers for that matter. That term was coined by unbelievers, because that set of folks was indeed Christ-like.

However we can't take that and say that ALL Christians are Christ-like in their living just because that group was.

I agree that not all that claim to be a Christian are a Christian, but I think there are far more people saved that a number of "evangelical Christians" think are saved.

Being saved does not make you Christ-like. We should be every changing and being conformed to His image so that we are becoming more and more like Christ, but that's a should not a will.

There's just zero Biblical support that ALL saved people will live right. It's just not there.

 

[webdog]

I thought I had. Which ones did I skip and I'll try my best to answer them.

lacy

2 Peter 1:11
(11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How does the term "everlasting kingdom" come into play here?

And another question, what does one have to do to get "grounded" from the kingdom?

How do we know where the line is so we don't cross it?
If it is perfection, then the kingdom may have a king, but no subjects.

I asked one time about a month ago, where the Christians that were excluded would go, while the kingdome was going on.... am I to understand that they would go to Hell?

It was asked back there somewhere who would we rule and reign?
What about the children born during the 7 yrs. Where will they go? into the kingdom, or Hell?

If the kingdom, will they be able to reproduce?
If so.... bingo, you have the subjects