Two Salvations?

[tinytim]

.

Of course He knows us. He knows everyone. So is He lying when He tells a lost person that He doesn't know them even though He really does, because He knows everyone and everything. So is He a liar? Of course not. Context...context...context.

.

Of course, not just know we exist, but have a relationship with us... KNOW us.. personally, have a relationship..

And I know what you believe, I just don't accept your doctrine.

You are so predictable that I knew that you would say I cherry picked that verse...
Now is that verse the Word of God or not?

The kingdom is eternal.... not just 1000 yrs..

they equal each other ,,, just because I posted something the way I believe it does not mean I am ignorant about how you believe.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

J. Jump,

You go ahead and work for entrance into heaven. You just may hear the Words 'I never knew you.' Remember, as you said, it was those who claimed works who Christ never knew.

Those who relied on Christ's Work will be the ones accepted according to His Word.

 

[J. Jump]

Boy, are you deceived.

That statement is HILARIOUS in light of your following statement:

These were lying to Him trying to weasel their way into the kingdom,

There is absolutely NO indication whatsoever NONE, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA that they people were lying. Go back and re-read the text in question. Christ does not rebuke them for lying about their works. Not one iota of evidence to support your claim that they were lying.

The fact of the matter is they were lying at all. They had done exactly what they said they had done. The problem is they didn't do what they were supposed to do! That is the issue, not that they were lying.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

There is reason to believe that they were lying.

They made a statement 'we cast out devils in your name'.

Christ went on to say 'I never knew you.'

Since satan cannot cast out satan, then those saying they cast out devils had to be lying.


And if YOU will look closely, He did rebuke them. They professed good works and He told them they worked iniquity.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The fact of the matter is they were lying at all. They had done exactly what they said they had done. The problem is they didn't do what they were supposed to do! That is the issue, not that they were lying.

It's like when Saul was kicked off the throne. They saved the best of everything to sacrifice to the Lord, but he had commanded them to kill everything. He wants obedience over sacrifice.

Yet, many people will say, "Well, they were obviously lying, so God punished him".

Well, the text simply says that they did it, but God had commanded them to do otherwise.

It's the same way in this passage: They claim they did something in his name, they're not rebuked for lying, they call him "Lord", and the Bible tells us that no one can call him Lord without the Holy Spirit, yet people say, "Well, they were obviously lying, and not every passage applies, etc., etc., etc."

That's much easier than reading what the text actually says.

 

[J. Jump]

Of course, not just know we exist, but have a relationship with us... KNOW us.. personally, have a relationship.

But that's not the context of these passages. Works is the context, not relationship. He doesn't know them in regard to their works, not whether they are a part of the family. We have to keep things in their proper context.

And if works is the context, person relationship (eternal salvation, spiritually salvation, whatever you want to call it is NOT in view). Works and spiritual salvation NEVER enter the same picture.

The ONLY works involved in eternal salvation (spiritually salvation) are the works of Christ and Him ALONE!

Anything outside of that is not an eternal salvation context.

And I know what you believe, I just don't accept your doctrine.

Well here is the issue then. One you don't really understand what we are talking about or two you do know what we are talking about and you are purposefully misrepresenting what we are talking about. Neither is a good situation!

Not one time has anyone on here said we can work our way into heaven, which is saying that we are preaching a works based eternal salvation. And that is just not true.

So you either don't understand what we are talking about or you are lying about us to put us in a bad light or youself in a good one. You can let me know which one it is.

Now is that verse the Word of God or not?

Sure its the Word of God, but that doesn't mean you can pull out a verse of Scripture and prove what you want to prove with it. If we do that then we can prove just about anything we want to prove right or wrong. Each verse must be taken in light of surrounding context and ultimately the context of the entire revelation given to us by God.

And I know you know that, so I'm not sure what your point is with the question.

The kingdom is eternal.... not just 1000 yrs.

Actually the kingdom of the heavens doesn't seem to be eternal. Either Lacy, HoG, James or someone else might want to step in here. But the kingdom of Christ reigning over the house of Jacob is said to be forever, but the kingdom of the heavens in 1,000 years in length only.

The kingdom of the heavens is the reign of faithful Christians over the earth in the stead of Satan where he and his angels currently rule.

Christ and His bride will rule there for 1,000 years, but when Christ delievers the kingdom to the Father and the throne becomes the throne of the Father and the Lamb then rule is centralized on the physical earth and not from the heavens and so the physical earthly kingdom continues on without end, but the kingdom of the heavens seems to come to an end, because once the 1,000 years is over we will not be in the heavens any longer, but on the earth.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

My brother will tell you Jesus is Lord, yet he never made a profession of faith. He is one of the biggest drunkards in his town

Remember Paul's writings in Philippians 2. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess He is Lord. Yet, not all who confess will be His.

Then will I profess to them, 'Depart from me, I never knew you, ye that do work iniquity.'

 

[J. Jump]

You go ahead and work for entrance into heaven.

Okay I'm going to say to you just as I said to Tim. Either one you don't really understand what we have been talking about or two you are purposefully lying about us, because not once person has said we must work our way into heaven as in preaching a works based eternal salvation message.

Now you tell me which one it is?

You just may hear the Words 'I never knew you.'

Now on that matter you are absolutely correct. I have every real possibility of missing out on the kingdom as does every other Christian. It is my prayer that I will not, but it is certainly a real possibility.

Since satan cannot cast out satan, then those saying they cast out devils had to be lying.

It's amazing that you prove my points for me, but yet you take the totally opposite side of the issue.

That's EXACTLY why they were in fact saved! Satan can not cast himself out. Christ never once said you did not cast out devils you liars, quite lying about your works.

He called them works of iniquity because even though they were good things they weren't supposed to be doing them. They were supposed to be doing something else.

Just because someone does something good doesn't mean that it is going to be rewarded! If you are doing a good thing, but it is against the will of God for your life then it will be a work of iniquity even though it was something good in your eyes.

 

[tinytim]

I know you all don't equate heaven with the kingdom but I do....
I think Christ will bring Heaven on earth...

When I die, I go to Heaven..
Christ comes back and brings me with him
Sets up earthly kingdom --- still Heaven
after 1000 yrs and Satan and followwers are destroyed,
New Heaven and new earth.

Heaven = kingdom... once you qualified for one you qualify for both
Jesus is what makes us qualified.

If a person is not trusting Christ for righteousness to get into the kingdom, and since kingdom = heaven, then a person must be trying to work their way to heaven.

That is the way I believe.. I am not trying to misrepresent your beliefs.
You have explained them welll.

I do thank you for your patient explanations.
I just feel that Heaven, eternal life, and the kingdom are all related to the same thing.

So when you say you have to work to get into the kingdom, I hear Heaven. Even though you mean 2 different things.

sorry if this is confusing.

Thank you.

 

[J. Jump]

Sets up earthly kingdom --- still Heaven

Tim here is one problem that I see. While Christ does indeed come back and set up an earthly kingdom it is not the earthly kingdom that the faithful Christian (or as you believe all Christians) are headed for during the 1,000-year period.

Heaven is where God resides. And yes Christians will spend a short amount of time there, but heaven does not come to earth, because when Christ returns the Father does not come to earth, but still resides in heaven until after the 1,000-year period is complete then God moves His throne to earth where He will dwell amongst His people.

But back to the original issue. Faithful Christians (and this can be proven by Scripture) will make up the bride of Christ and they will rule and reign with Christ from the heavens over the earth not from the physical earth.

The earthly kingdom was promised to Israel not to the bride. The bride does not return all the way to earth just as Moses wife did not return all the way with Moses when he went back to his bretheren.

Matthew tells us exactly where we will rule and it is from the heavens. The statement found in Matthew's Gospel and in John chapter 3 according to aleph text which is the kingdom of heaven is actually and should be translated the kingdom of the heavens. The article the is always found preceeding a plural heavens.

This is the spiritual sphere of the kingdom where Satan and his angels are currently ruling. This is why this doctrine is so attacked by Satan, because we wants to disqualify as many as he can from ruling and reigning with Christ, because we are the ones that are going to go in with Christ and rule in Satan's stead.

That's why it is said that our war is not against flesh and blood. Our battlefield is in the heavenly land the land of our calling. It's not where God dwells where our battle is being waged, but where Satan and his fallen angels are currently ruling.

I just feel that Heaven, eternal life, and the kingdom are all related to the same thing.

Unfortunately that is just not how Scripture lays out matters. Everlasting life and kingdom life are two separate issues, because one is for the rest of our existence and one is for 1,000 years before stepping out into eternity.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

He called them works of iniquity because even though they were good things they weren't supposed to be doing them. They were supposed to be doing something else.

Chalk up another absurd statement for an equally absurd doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion

Let them that will be ignorant, be ignorant still.

 

[J. Jump]

Chalk up another absurd statement for an equally absurd doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion

And as always you step in with more slander and no Scripture.

Let them that will be ignorant, be ignorant still.

And unfortunately that is a true statement. You can lead a horse to water, but as bad as you want the horse to drink he just has to do it himself.

It breaks my heart, but Romans 1 tells us that some just don't want to hear the Truth, so it comes as no surprise, but it doesn't hurt any less.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Let's see, we have Scripture that says that they cast out demons in the Lord's name.

SFiC and Diggin and maybe Tim want to add, "But they were really lying, but God was keeping that part secret", and we're reading something into Scripture that isn't there?

Why not simply let Scriptures say what the say?

They called him "Lord"; they cast out demons in his name; thei works were lawlessness.

1 Corinthians 12:3 tells us: Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

We're told that Satan cannot cast out Satan.

We're not told that these men were lying.

Yet, there are those who would have us ignore 1 Corinthians 12:3, ignore that Satan cannot cast out Satan, and add that the men were lying, and then call this the simple reading of Scripture.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Nowhere does the Lord say, 'You did cast out demons in my name', He said, 'Many will say... and in Thy name cast out demons.'

The fact that He said He never knew them proves they were lying no matter how much you want to twist the truth into a lie (the Bible warns of people who do that).

Satan cannot cast out satan. Christ never knew them. He never had a relationship with them.

 

[J. Jump]

The fact that He said He never knew them proves they were lying

No it doesn't and just because you repeatedly say it doesn't make it any more true. If they were lying then Christ would have said they were lying. He didn't. You have to say they were lying, because if they weren't lying then your doctrine doesn't hold up.

Scripture doesn't say they were lying. Christ wasn't implying they were lying. Christ said He didn't know them with a works context. So once again eternal salvation is not even in view, because works are in view.

You keep hounding us and harping at us because you say we are teaching a work to get to heaven doctrine, but at every turn of the corner when works are mentioned you are the one placing eternal salvation into the picture, but you keep accusing us of preaching a works based salvation.

He didn't know them based on their works, not based on whether they were a part of the family or not. Context...context...context. Context is kingdom. Context rules, however you want to say it, we must keep the context in view and eternal salvation is NOT in view! It can not be.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Having eyes to see, they see not.

The fact that they claimed good works and Christ told them they worked iniquity shows that Christ told them they were lying.

My mother, before I was saved, would often catch me in a lie and tell me what the truth was without calling me a liar straight out or telling me I lied straight out.

Jesus did the same here. He called them on their lies by telling them He had never had any kind of relationship with them whatsoever... 'I NEVER KNEW YOU.' and by telling them they were workers of iniquity.

 

[Linda64]

“What Saith the Scriptures?”

Hodges and Dillow divide saved people into two distinct categories—-the spiritual and the carnal, the overcomers (Rev. 2-3) and the non-overcomers, the “partakers” (Heb. 3:14) and the non-partakers. However, in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Paul makes it clear that the group of immoral people he is referring to is not the carnal Corinthians. In verse 11 he says, “and such WERE some of you.” In chapter 3, verse 3, Paul said to the Corinthians: “For ye ARE yet CARNAL.” Paul acknowledged that they were carnal and yet he did not include them with the unrighteous ones described in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. Such a description only fit them when they were unsaved. That is what they WERE. If the Hodges/Dillow view were correct, then Paul should have said in 1 Corinthians 6:9, “and such ARE some of you.”

When Paul speaks of the “unrighteous” (unjust) in 1 Corinthians 6:9 he is not speaking of some carnal, unworthy, unpersevering members of the Body and Bride of Christ. No, Paul uses the term “unrighteous” (unjust) as a description of unsaved, unregenerate, lost people. This term “unjust” is clearly defined for us in the context of this chapter. In verse 1 Paul says, “Dare any of you having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?” (1 Cor. 6:1). Paul clearly distinguishes two groups: 1) The unjust (the unsaved) and 2) the saints (the saved). These same two groups are seen in verses 9-11. In verse 9-10 we have the unrighteous (unjust) which are the unsaved. They will not inherit the kingdom. In verse 11 we have those who are justified and sanctified. These are the saints (the saved) who will inherit the kingdom. There is no such thing as a saint or a saved person who will not inherit the kingdom, contrary to the teachings of Hodges and Dillow.

We need to carefully follow Paul’s argument in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. What is it that makes a person RIGHTEOUS and able to inherit the kingdom? Is it because the saved person has persevered in the faith and walked closely with the Lord and thus has earned his share in the kingdom, as Hodges and Dillow suggest? No! In verse 11, Paul says that the reason the Corinthians are righteous and thus fit to inherit the kingdom is because they have been JUSTIFIED! Even carnal Corinthians will inherit the kingdom because they are seen as perfectly righteous IN CHRIST!

Paul’s argument is as follows:

1. The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

2. Every believer has been justified or declared righteous (1 Cor. 6:11).

3. The justified believer, therefore, is not unrighteous.

CONCLUSION: Every believer will inherit the kingdom based solely on his righteous standing in Christ Jesus made possible only by the grace of God! [Paul was championing the free grace position!]

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/GES04.htm

 

[Linda64]

Kingdom/Millennial Exclusion doctrine is simply a Protestant version of the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory--I call it "Protestant Purgatory"--and I'm not the only one who calls it such--Laurence Vance also calls it "Protestant Purgatory." In his review of J.D. Faust's book "The Rod, Will God Spare It?", he writes:

By inventing a Protestant purgatory, it is Faust who holds defective views on accountability truth. Believers are accountable, but secure now and forever.
Laurence M. Vance
Vance Publications
Pensacola, FL

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/faust.htm

 

[J. Jump]

My mother, before I was saved, would often catch me in a lie and tell me what the truth was without calling me a liar straight out or telling me I lied straight out.

Well geeze if SFIC's mommy did it, it must have been good enough for Jesus then. Nice story SFIC, but just becuase you momma did something doesn't mean that's what Jesus did.

And you can continue to convince yourself that they were lying, but that's just not in the text direct or indirect. It doesn't line up with the rest of Scripture.

He called them on their lies by telling them He had never had any kind of relationship with them whatsoever... 'I NEVER KNEW YOU.' and by telling them they were workers of iniquity.

That's just plain sillyness. Christ is the All-Knowing Creator and Sustainer and you're going to sit there and tell me that He didn't come out directly and call them liars, but I'm supposed to believe you even though the text gives no indication of that. Sorry just not going to happen. I will trust Scripture first.

And I guess when your children lied to you, you wouldn't say why are you lying or why are you not telling the truth, but you would say who are you? You are not my children. I never knew you, get out of my house.

That's certainly not how I treat my kids. No its dealt with directly.

Scripturally sin is always dealt with directly not indirectly as far as I can see.

 

[J. Jump]

Kingdom/Millennial Exclusion doctrine is simply a Protestant version of the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory--I call it "Protestant Purgatory"--and I'm not the only one who calls it such--Laurence Vance also calls it "Protestant Purgatory."

Oh so now we are supposed to change our view, because you are comparing us to Catholics You can refute the doctrine with Scripture, so now we shouldnt' believe becuase we are too close to the Catholics.

By the way this doctrine and the false doctrine of puratory aren't the same thing. And as I have said before it either shows a misunderstanding on your part or you are just flat out misrepresenting what we believe to put us in a bad light or put yourself in a good light. You can tell us which one it is.