Two Salvations?

[Linda64]

Oh so now we are supposed to change our view, because you are comparing us to Catholics You can refute the doctrine with Scripture, so now we shouldnt' believe becuase we are too close to the Catholics.

You're not supposed to change your view because of me comparing you to Catholics--change it because you have been teaching a false doctrine. Many of us have refuted the doctrine using Scripture, and you have "cherry-picked" out of those verses which were presented (and not even using the full verse), twisting it--turning the truth into a lie.

By the way this doctrine and the false doctrine of puratory aren't the same thing. And as I have said before it either shows a misunderstanding on your part or you are just flat out misrepresenting what we believe to put us in a bad light or put yourself in a good light. You can tell us which one it is.

Whether you want to call this false doctrine a purgatory or not, it doesn't change the fact that it is. Just as the Catholics believe their purgatory is only a time period that their loved ones can get into heaven, your false doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion infers the same thing.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

J. Jump,

I may be physically blind, but you apparently have a much worse blindness than I. Your view of Matthew 7:21 - 23 is saddly lacking credibility.

In revealing to those professing to do good works that they were doing works of iniquity, Jesus was indeed pointing out that they were lying.

Whether you want to accept this or not, it is there. Those are not the saved. Those are wolves trying to give an appearance of being sheep.

Even the man who had the legion of demons recognized who Jesus was, yet He was not saved until the demons were cast out and Jesus became a reality to him.

Jesus did not have a relationship with these saying 'Lord, lord' in Matthew 7. Else He would have said,
'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world'.

But I fear, just as Paul, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your mind is corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

And your argument that these people were saved because they called Him Lord is... for lack of a more appropriate word ...silliness.

Jesus quoted Isaiah in the same chapter that some worshipped Him with their lips (Lord, lord), but their hearts were far from Him.

People can call Him Lord and not know Him, as evidenced by Matthew 7.

 

[James_Newman]

I think rather, the obvious implication is that although they may have done good works in the name of the Lord, they were still guilty of other sins that in light of the judgment outweighed their good works. Jesus called them workers of iniquity because that is what they were. Works is what is being judged in that passage, and works only.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

If these verses are talking about eternal salvation, then you must hear these sayings and do them to be saved. Therefore you are teaching a works salvation, despite any wriggling to get out from under the obvious inclusion of works in the passage.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The only work required of us is to believe on Christ. Nothing else.

 

[James_Newman]

The only work required of us is to believe on Christ. Nothing else.

Not in Matthew 7.
Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

What sayings, Lord?

Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 5:34-35
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Matthew 5:39-40
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

Matthew 5:44
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 6:31-33
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

There is an awful lot of saying to do in the sermon on the mount. And I didn't see one verse that said 'Whosoever believes on me hath already done all this.'

 

[webdog]

But back to the original issue. Faithful Christians (and this can be proven by Scripture) will make up the bride of Christ and they will rule and reign with Christ from the heavens over the earth not from the physical earth.

Scriptural proof. I think you are way off on this. I know there are many that believe the New Jerusalem will be "hovering" above earth, but I don't find that in Scripture.

 

[J. Jump]

change it because you have been teaching a false doctrine. Many of us have refuted the doctrine using Scripture

:laugh: :laugh: Oh my goodness that was :laugh: . I just can't stop :laugh: . You have done nothing of the sort.

and you have "cherry-picked" out of those verses which were presented (and not even using the full verse), twisting it--turning the truth into a lie.

I wish I had more simley faces. I guess I'll have to create my own. : ) Oh that was so : ) . . . I've been accused of cherry picking . . . oh that's a good one : ) Please post some more because I need a good : ) every now and then.

Just as the Catholics believe their purgatory is only a time period that their loved ones can get into heaven, your false doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion infers the same thing.

No it doesn't. So again you are either lying purosefully or you don't have a clue what we are talking about. Which is it?

 

[npetreley]

And your argument that these people were saved because they called Him Lord is... for lack of a more appropriate word ...silliness.

Wow, here's one of those rare times when I agree with you. I do not think they were saved. On the other hand, I'm not convinced they were lying about what they did (prophecy, cast out demons). I don't know how they could cast out demons, but they may have honestly believed they were casting them out. Regardless, they lacked the Spirit of God, and if they did these things at all, they were not doing these things according to the will and power of God. They were most likely doing it for their own glory.

Maybe they were lying, I don't know. I'm just not convinced that this is the case.

I think there are MANY people who profess to be Christians today who are in the same boat. They're running around going through all the motions of serving God, thinking they are getting brownie points for doing so. Meanwhile, they're living sinful lives. I know of many such people. They attend church twice weekly or more, they cry when they sing all the praise and worship songs, teach sunday school, they preach, they teach bible studies, and so on. Meanwhile, they're cheating on their husbands, etc., and lying about it to their fellow Christians. They may be doing a lot of things that look like service, but no matter how you slice it, they're living according to the flesh. I think they will be among those who say, "Didn't we do this and that for you?" To which Jesus will answer, "Depart from me you who practice iniquity - I never knew you."

 

[npetreley]

The only work required of us is to believe on Christ. Nothing else.

In context, this is actually the work of God.

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Jesus didn't say "This is the work required by God", He said "This is the work of God".

In addition, if it was the work required of us to believe, then we'd be saved by works. People can argue all day that faith is not a work, but if one assumes that the work required of us is to believe, then it's obvious that faith would have to be a work.

 

[J. Jump]

SFIC again you just keep on with the slandering and yet you say I don't have any credibility. That is just laughable!

In revealing to those professing to do good works that they were doing works of iniquity, Jesus was indeed pointing out that they were lying.

Well you keep convincing yourself that that is true if you want to. That's not what Scripture says and I will take what Scripture says any ole day of the week over what SFIC says. No offense to you, but Scripture trumps anything and everything you or I have to say on the matter.

Christ didn't say they were lying. It's just plainly not there as bad as you want church tradition to stand up it doesn't. We can either conform to Scripture or hold on to tradition.

And we have a real good example of what happens to those that hold on to false tradition. One just need to read the gospel accounts.

Even the man who had the legion of demons recognized who Jesus was, yet He was not saved until the demons were cast out and Jesus became a reality to him.

Did the man recognize Jesus or did he call Him Lord. Those are two totally different things!

Jesus did not have a relationship with these saying 'Lord, lord' in Matthew 7. Else He would have said, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world'.

No that's what SFIC wants Jesus to say. Unfortunately those that don't do the will of the Father, according to Scripture, won't enter the kingdom of the heavens and these that said Lord, Lord obviously weren't doing the will of the Father.

Now you can say that because they weren't doing the will of the Father then they werern't saved, but you will still be contradicting Scripture, because salvation is not based on works.

Either way you want to look at matters your view just doesn't pass the Scripture test, but yet you keep believing it if you want to. The saddest part is I believe you are a pastor and so you are taking down others with you who trust you and that just breaks my heart!

so your mind is corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Far from it. Far from it. The lie, that obviously you have bought into, is that everything is simple and that every Truth lies on the surface as Scripture. But again keep believing it if you want to.

The only work required of us is to believe on Christ. Nothing else.

That is so far from the Truth. Every saved man will stand before the judgment seat of Christ one day and his WORKS will be tried not whether or not he is saved, but his WORKS. For you to say that all we have to do is believe on Christ and then we can live any ole way we please is just flat out false.

Something else IS required, not for eternal salvation no, but to stand before Christ blameless on that day one is going to have to prove themselves according to Philippians 2. And you prove yourself with WORKS.

 

[J. Jump]

Scriptural proof.

Webdog re-read my post the Scriptural proof was provided. From both Matthew and Ephesians. And that's just for starters.

 

[tinytim]

I think rather, the obvious implication is that although they may have done good works in the name of the Lord, they were still guilty of other sins that in light of the judgment outweighed their good works. Jesus called them workers of iniquity because that is what they were. Works is what is being judged in that passage, and works only.

.

What they were guilty of was not having a relationship with Christ...
This next statement is for everyone, both sides:

Do you have a Relationship with Christ right now?

If you do, how can he:
1) Tell you you cannot go into the kingdom based on him not "knowing" you?

or

2) Tell you, you cannot spend eternity with him based on him not "knowing" you?


If at any point in the future, Christ tells me He has NEVER KNOWN me, He would be lying.... It will never happen, because I have a daily, personal relationship with him... HE KNOWs me.

I really don't see how this even plays into the Kingdom exclusion doctrine anyhow...

If I were to believe this doctrine, I would have to accept that my entrance into the kingdom would be based on works.... not relationship.
So therefore, my relationship with Christ would not even be a factor in whether or not I got into the kingdom. right?

So let's say, I'm saved, but not faithful..... It comes time to enter the kingdom, and Christ says "sorry I never knew you" He would still be lying.

Of course if I believed this doctrine, it comes time to enter the kingdom, Christ may say, "you were not faithful enough"

But that is not relationship... that is religion.

 

[J. Jump]

They're running around going through all the motions of serving God, thinking they are getting brownie points for doing so. Meanwhile, they're living sinful lives. I know of many such people. They attend church twice weekly or more, they cry when they sing all the praise and worship songs, teach sunday school, they preach, they teach bible studies, and so on. Meanwhile, they're cheating on their husbands, etc., and lying about it to their fellow Christians. They may be doing a lot of things that look like service, but no matter how you slice it, they're living according to the flesh. I think they will be among those who say, "Didn't we do this and that for you?" To which Jesus will answer, "Depart from me you who practice iniquity - I never knew you."

And if these folks have trusted in the Substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God on their behalf a sinner then they are saved even though they do these horrible things. And yes you are correct if they are un-repentant about these things that is EXACTLY what they will hear from the Lord!

 

[tinytim]

Wow, another 30 pages flew by!!!

 

[J. Jump]

What they were guilty of was not having a relationship with Christ...
This next statement is for everyone, both sides:

Do you have a Relationship with Christ right now?

If you do, how can he:
1) Tell you you cannot go into the kingdom based on him not "knowing" you?

or

2) Tell you, you cannot spend eternity with him based on him not "knowing" you?


If at any point in the future, Christ tells me He has NEVER KNOWN me, He would be lying.... It will never happen, because I have a daily, personal relationship with him... HE KNOWs me.

I really don't see how this even plays into the Kingdom exclusion doctrine anyhow...

If I were to believe this doctrine, I would have to accept that my entrance into the kingdom would be based on works.... not relationship.
So therefore, my relationship with Christ would not even be a factor in whether or not I got into the kingdom. right?

So let's say, I'm saved, but not faithful..... It comes time to enter the kingdom, and Christ says "sorry I never knew you" He would still be lying.

Of course if I believed this doctrine, it comes time to enter the kingdom, Christ may say, "you were not faithful enough"

But that is not relationship... that is religion.

Tim as long as you are trying to equate works and eternal salvation in the same sentence it will never make sense to you.

Your eternal salvation doesn't have anything to do with entrance into the kingdom EXCEPT that it places you in a position to be able to get there. It is the STARTING point, not the ending point as most believe.

If it was the ending point there would be no reason whatsoever to prove ourselves faithful.

If my standing with Christ is okay and everyone is okay then why do I have to confess my sins. Why do I have to care if I sin or not.

If everyone gets in then where is my motivation to do what is right? I can have the world and the riches of heaven. I can have my cake and eat it to right?

So I don't have to worry about being faithful to my wife? I don't have to worry about being faithful to taxes? I can cheat my neighbor and steal his stuff, becuase I'm okay as long as I believed in Christ right? I'll still get my little patch of heaven right?

 

[tinytim]

And if these folks have trusted in the Substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God on their behalf a sinner then they are saved even though they do these horrible things. And yes you are correct if they are un-repentant about these things that is EXACTLY what they will hear from the Lord!

And I suppose pigs can fly

A truly saved person will not be un-repentant....
Their works will prove they are saved, not save them.

Just like, birds fly because they are birds.... not to prove they are
Cows moo because they are cows... not to prove they are
Pigs wallow in mud because they are pigs ....not to prove they are

Now a pig can't fly, dogs can't meow, and cats can't moo.

And we as a Christian are created a NEW CREATURE. One that will want to live right...

If a person does not want to live right after they say they were saved... they were not saved...

They are just fooling themselves.
A truly saved person will want to do right.

 

[tinytim]

If everyone gets in then where is my motivation to do what is right? I can have the world and the riches of heaven. I can have my cake and eat it to right?

So I don't have to worry about being faithful to my wife? I don't have to worry about being faithful to taxes? I can cheat my neighbor and steal his stuff, becuase I'm okay as long as I believed in Christ right? I'll still get my little patch of heaven right?

Because it will not be in your new nature to want to do those things...

You may do them, but the Holy Spirit, that spirit of earnest will convict you until you repent.

 

[James_Newman]

Tim, our eternal security is not based on a relationship, or 'knowing' him. It is based on His death, His suffering for our sins. My hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus' blood and righteousness. What can I add to that to secure my own salvation? It is finished.

 

[webdog]

They are just fooling themselves.
A truly saved person will want to do right.

Tim, I agree with most of what you said except this. How does this square with what Paul said...

Rom 7:15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.