Two views of being saved

[Yeshua1]

you guys do make me laugh at least! Because you really do NOT know WHAT you believe in! On the one had we read from your camp, that no human being has a FREE WILL, that all has been predetermined by God, and the elect will be saved, and those who are the non elect, will be lost, because of the fact that they are not elect. Now you say that those who are lost, REJECTED Jesus to save them??? This, my friend, requires FREE WILL!!!

We hold that all have free will, but due to our sin natures, limited as to what we can freely choose!

 

[SavedByGrace]

We hold that all have free will, but due to our sin natures, limited as to what we can freely choose!

But your content is clearly salvation

 

[Yeshua1]

But your content is clearly salvation

Sinners will not desire to get saved apart from the work of the Holy Spirit!

 

[37818]

he is the one who was a modern day Judas it would appear

We do not know that. But maybe more like Balaam, Numbers 23:10, ". . . Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!"
2 Peter 3:9-15, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; . . ."

 

[37818]

I very sadly bring up the name Ravi Zacharias here.

Does he have the promises of God, Hebrews 10:17, Revelation 3:5, or not Revelation 20:15?

 

[37818]

That does not change what it says and means in Hebrews 10:29.

Hebrews 10.29 is to ALL those who are sanctified who are only the saved

So are you saying the saved can deny the faith and become lost?

Check the context

Hebrews 10:29, "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

 

[SavedByGrace]

Hebrews 10:29, "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

don' t forget the context, verses 28 and 30

 

[AustinC]

That does not change what it says and means in Hebrews 10:29.

Indeed, but it should change your understanding and interpretation.

 

[AustinC]

Of course Jesus death was universal. Does anyone believe only his left side died, but his right side remained alive?

His death was an atonement for sin. As you correctly state, his atonement is limited to those who believe.

@SavedByGrace, I see you ignored this.

 

[37818]

Universal Atonement places salvation on your shoulders. You are the savior and you know more of your own weaknesses than anyone. I cannot trust myself enough to know I'm saved in that case.

But Limited Atonement tells me I believe because Christ fully paid for all my sins. My faith is in Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith who cannot fail. And I know I'm saved or I would not experience Christ in my heart and believe.

THE DEATH OF DEATH IN THE DEATH OF CHRIST by John Owen from To The Reader:

. . . To what purpose serves the general ransom, but only to assert that Almighty God would have the precious blood of his dear Son poured out for innumerable souls whom he will not have to share in any drop thereof, and so, in respect of them, to be spilt in vain, or else to be shed for them only that they might be the deeper damned? . . .

. . . or else to be shed for them only that they might be the deeper damned.
Romans 14:9, "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. . . ."
Romans 14:11, ". . . For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Romans 8:34, ". . . Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, . . ."

1 John 2:2, ". . . the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."
Romans 8:34, ". . . is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. . . ."

He died to be Lord and Judge of the the dead and Lord and Savior of those whom live through Him.

 

[37818]

don' t forget the context, verses 28 and 30

Does not change Hebrews 10:29.
Hebrews 10:28-30, ". . .
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace ? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. . . ."

 

[1689Dave]

. . . or else to be shed for them only that they might be the deeper damned.
Romans 14:9, "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. . . ."
Romans 14:11, ". . . For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Romans 8:34, ". . . Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, . . ."

1 John 2:2, ". . . the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."
Romans 8:34, ". . . is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. . . ."

He died to be Lord and Judge of the the dead and Lord and Savior of those whom live through Him.

I like John Owen. I modernized his Death of Death logic quote to make it easier to grasp. Here's a sample.

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

All the sins of all men.

All the sins of some men, or

Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.

That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died?

If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

 

[37818]

Indeed, but it should change your understanding and interpretation.

How? And then why? Should I believe those whom God saves can turn there back on God?

 

[37818]

I like John Owen. I modernized his Death of Death logic quote to make it easier to grasp. Here's a sample.

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

All the sins of all men.

All the sins of some men, or

Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.

That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died?

If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

Your understanding makes no sense to me or we would agree.

2 Corinthians 5:14, ". . . For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: . . ."

 

[1689Dave]

Your understanding makes no sense to me or we would agree.

2 Corinthians 5:14, ". . . For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: . . ."

If you are a universalist, we cannot agree. It's grace VS works.

 

[37818]

The two views:
1) The saved know they are saved now.
2) The saved know they are saved now, but that salvation can be lost.

 

[Yeshua1]

Does not change Hebrews 10:29.
Hebrews 10:28-30, ". . .
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace ? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. . . ."

Does that mean lost, or chastised?

 

[37818]

If you are a universalist, we cannot agree. It's grace VS works.

I am not a universalist. If universalism was true, it would not matter.

Now the two views hold salvation is by grace, not the works.

The second view holds that one can leave the faith. The first view holds once one believes and is saved, one will not leave, because God keeps them.

 

[37818]

Does that mean lost, or chastised?

What does Hebrews 10:30 tell you?

 

[AustinC]

I am not a universalist. If universalism was true, it would not matter.

Now the two views hold salvation is by grace, not the works.

The second view holds that one can leave the faith. The first view holds once one believes and is saved, one will not leave, because God keeps them.

It is by works if you can reject the faith. This also means you believed you could accept the faith. Both are merit/demerit based sides of the same coin. This is why free will teaching is a false teaching, yet God still uses a lie to save some.