Utter false, deal with Matthew 23:13 and stop making up claims without biblical support.
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Two Views of Foreknowledge
- Thread starter JonC
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Utter nonsense, No verse says we are seated in the heavenly before being placed in Christ. Such basic ideas like because we are in Christ and Christ is in heaven we are in the heavenly in some manner.No, in the mind of God we were already seated in high places in Christ, but not until we received Jesus as our Lord in this life did we become born again and now part of that royal priesthood and chosen people!
Quit claiming that verse, until you have a proper understanding on what was taught there!Utter false, deal with Matthew 23:13 and stop making up claims without biblical support.
When did God see us saved then? Always, or just when we chose to get saved?Utter nonsense, No verse says we are seated in the heavenly before being placed in Christ. Such basic ideas like because we are in Christ and Christ is in heaven we are in the heavenly in some manner.
You can keep reading Calvinist false claims into scripture till the cows come home. but are there none who seek God at all times? Yes. Are there some who seek God some of the time? Yes. Have we all turned aside? Yes. Therefore we are all under sin.But Scripture testifies that no one seeks for God.
Romans 3:10-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
Lost sheep do not seek for the shepherd. The Shepherd must go and get them.
Why is it that none of the Calvinist advocates see that their view has been added to the text. The things become all the things, none who seeks after God becomes none who seek after God at any time, and on and on.
Stop insulting the poster and address the position. Denial and deflection on display. This is all they have folks,Quit claiming that verse, until you have a proper understanding on what was taught there!
Yet another nonsensical post. Did anyone say we were always saved? Nope. Did anyone say we were saved when we chose to trust in Christ? Nope So more deflection.When did God see us saved then? Always, or just when we chose to get saved?
What we have here is a failure to comprehend. No verse says regeneration occurs outside of Christ. But we are made alive together with Christ. Since we are individually chosen through faith, we were not elected individually before we put our faith in Christ. And we were once not a people, therefore we could not have been chosen individually before we existed not as a chosen people. It is a lock.
Two different Greek words are translated as foreknown and foreknowledge. Both words refer to information acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. So when a predetermined plan is implemented, it is according to foreknowledge. This is the only meaning. Efforts to say the word is akin to "foresee the future" are utterly bogus. Efforts to say the word refers to a preexisting intimate relationship are utterly bogus.
Review the eight places where the words are used, and only the utilization of prior knowledge fits all of them.
How can Pharisees have the means to stop the chosen elect of God from coming unto salvation in Christ?Stop insulting the poster and address the position. Denial and deflection on display. This is all they have folks,
when God looks at the Church, does He see it as the Body, or does He see each one of us in it?Yet another nonsensical post. Did anyone say we were always saved? Nope. Did anyone say we were saved when we chose to trust in Christ? Nope So more deflection.
What we have here is a failure to comprehend. No verse says regeneration occurs outside of Christ. But we are made alive together with Christ. Since we are individually chosen through faith, we were not elected individually before we put our faith in Christ. And we were once not a people, therefore we could not have been chosen individually before we existed not as a chosen people. It is a lock.
Two different Greek words are translated as foreknown and foreknowledge. Both words refer to information acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. So when a predetermined plan is implemented, it is according to foreknowledge. This is the only meaning. Efforts to say the word is akin to "foresee the future" are utterly bogus. Efforts to say the word refers to a preexisting intimate relationship are utterly bogus.
Review the eight places where the word is used, and only the utilization of prior knowledge fits all of them.
Did Jesus die for the Church, or for us?
I agree with Jesus, why are you saying Jesus was wrong? Did anyone say those entering (Matthew 23:13) had be chosen and given to Christ? Nope On and on they deny and deflect.How can Pharisees have the means to stop the chosen elect of God from coming unto salvation in Christ?
More new questions, more effort to change the subject, more effort to avoid the questions asked. Denial and deflection on display.when God looks at the Church, does He see it as the Body, or does He see each one of us in it?
Did Jesus die for the Church, or for us?
How could we be "once not a people" if we had been chosen individually before creation to be God's people?
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Yes becoming born of God, so that they are no longer of the devil.Jesus told us the HIS sheep will follow Him, so something must have happened to them in order to now be following Him...
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
You continue to claim the lost seek for God, when scripture say they do not. So your not in agreement with what God has said.I agree with Jesus, why are you saying Jesus was wrong? Did anyone say those entering (Matthew 23:13) had be chosen and given to Christ? Nope On and on they deny and deflect.
Matthew 23:13 says the lost seek God, and therefore your Calvinist assertions are bogus.You continue to claim the lost seek for God, when scripture say they do not. So your not in agreement with what God has said.
How could we be "once not a people" if we had been chosen individually before creation to be God's people?
No verse says regeneration occurs outside of Christ. But we are made alive together with Christ. Since we are individually chosen through faith, we were not elected individually before we put our faith in Christ. And we were once not a people, therefore we could not have been chosen individually before we existed not as a chosen people. It is a lock.
Two different Greek words are translated as foreknown and foreknowledge. Both words refer to information acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. So when a predetermined plan is implemented, it is according to foreknowledge. This is the only meaning. Efforts to say the word is akin to "foresee the future" are utterly bogus. Efforts to say the word refers to a preexisting intimate relationship are utterly bogus.
Review the eight places where the words are used, and only the utilization of prior knowledge fits all of them.
Two different Greek words are translated as foreknown and foreknowledge. Both words refer to information acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. So when a predetermined plan is implemented, it is according to foreknowledge. This is the only meaning. Efforts to say the word is akin to "foresee the future" are utterly bogus. Efforts to say the word refers to a preexisting intimate relationship are utterly bogus.
Review the eight places where the words are used, and only the utilization of prior knowledge fits all of them.
They know, because they have known me from time past, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5 illustrates the meaning of the word "foreknown". It is information (Paul lived as a Pharisee) that was acquired in the past (when Paul was a youth) that is to be utilized in the present, if they are willing to testify.
Acts 26:5 illustrates the meaning of the word "foreknown". It is information (Paul lived as a Pharisee) that was acquired in the past (when Paul was a youth) that is to be utilized in the present, if they are willing to testify.
Yes.Well put. Middle knowledge theory is fascinating and to me fits Scripture in that God decrees the future definitely and exhaustively, and yet responds to things. It makes sense to me, at least for now.
Fascinatingly, many Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike understand the explanatory power of Middle-knowledge.
One mustn't belong to any "camp" to incorporate it into your database....
Classically, people of both Calvinistic and non-Calvinistic persuasions have used it to construct explanatory models with which to explain how God might be working in his creation.
Let's take this one question at a time:But how can there be alternate endings even possible, or so called Middle Knowledge, since the Lord either determines and causes or permits all that actually ever really happens?
But how can there be alternate endings even possible?
Theoretically, all non-contradictory endings are "possible" and exist in a possible world (or possible state of affairs).
since the Lord either determines and causes or permits all that actually ever really happens?
The explanatory power of Middle knowledge is that it actually accounts for all of those options (other than "causes" perhaps).
God can exhaustively foreordain all that comes to pass, and grant genuine libertarian freedom if he knows what any one would do in any set of circumstances....if he brings about whatever circumstances any one finds themselves in at any point....
That's how it can be done.
It's coherent, it is Biblically supportable..(I would argue Biblically suggested). One then need neither to deny genuine freedom of choice (even real Libertarian freedom) and exhaustive foreknowledge and predestination of every event....every event.
It's a powerful explanatory tool.
That's one possible explanation of how it works.
That works.Both.
You're the one that brought love into it. But that foreknowledge is love is clear from Romans 8:28 ff and 1 John 4:19.Like I said before, the word is never translated as love, nor ever interchangeable with love. You can speculate that God never loved them, but it's just speculation. It doesn't come from this verse.
What the verse does say is God, Jesus, never knew them relationally the way he knows believers.
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