Ugandan pastors blast Rick Warren for opposing anti-gay law

[Revmitchell]

==Prove it. You used a Christian's youth against him. How is that any different from what Paul commanded Timothy not to let others do to him?

That is not what Paul said to Timothy. Go back and study that passage.

 

[Martin]

And this is where your argument falls apart. No one is monitoring what goes on in bedrooms in the US. That is a fallacy and a strawman.

==You are applauding the proposed new law in Uganda. If you think such a big government law is good in Uganda, why do you think such a big government law would be bad in America?

 

[Martin]

That is not what Paul said to Timothy. Go back and study that passage.

"Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe" -1Tim 4:13

You used a Christian's youth against him. You looked down on him because of his youthfulness. You claimed he could not "have any solid foundational beliefs yet". Seems to me that you violated Scripture. If you don't think you have, show me how what you said is any different from what Paul commanded Timothy not to let others do to him?

 

[Revmitchell]

==You are applauding the proposed new law in Uganda. If you think such a big government law is good in Uganda, why do you think such a big government law would be bad in America?

Just stop. Your wrong on the Timothy passage and you are wrong on what I applaud.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

What you are is a very young man who has not walked the face of the earth long enough to have any solid foundational beliefs yet.

Yes, I am young, as were you at one point. And I'm sure as I get older I and my views will develop over time. With that said, I have the Bible to provide my foundational views for my faith. I have my pastor, my church, and the BF&M to help guide me. All I can do is come as a sinner saved by God's grace to the foot of the cross. With my political views, some of them have a biblical issue involved such as abortion, gays, right to self-defense and some other things. Some other questions are more political in nature. All I can do then is look at the issues, apply the council of those who have that life experience you speak of (many of whom have differing opinions from each other), apply reason and come to political principles and positions on political issues. I'm not perfect; I don't have all the answers, but unlike so many young people, at least I take an intrest in theology and politics and try to apply those principles to the way I live my life.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, I am young, as were you at one point. And I'm sure as I get older I and my views will develop over time. With that said, I have the Bible to provide my foundational views for my faith. I have my pastor, my church, and the BF&M to help guide me. All I can do is come as a sinner saved by God's grace to the foot of the cross. With my political views, some of them have a biblical issue involved such as abortion, gays, right to self-defense and some other things. Some other questions are more political in nature. All I can do then is look at the issues, apply the council of those who have that life experience you speak of (many of whom have differing opinions from each other), apply reason and come to political principles and positions on political issues. I'm not perfect; I don't have all the answers, but unlike so many young people, at least I take an intrest[sic] in theology and politics and try to apply those principles to the way I live my life.

That you do.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No it isn't. The First Amendment guarantees free political speech. It does not protect profanity.

Yes Rick Warren has the right to say what he wants in this country. Fortunately, Ugandan pastors don't have to go along with it as the 1st Amendment guarantee is not an issue. Its none of Rick Warren's business what Uganda does.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes Rick Warren has the right to say what he wants in this country. Fortunately, Ugandan pastors don't have to go along with it as the 1st Amendment guarantee is not an issue. Its none of Rick Warren's business what Uganda does.

Right and it appears the pastors in Uganda feel he was unduly influencing the issue.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Just stop. Your[sic] wrong on the Timothy passage and you are wrong on what I applaud.

I will agree that the Timothy passage does not apply here. With that said, thank you Martin for sticking up for me.

 

[Martin]

Just stop. Your wrong on the Timothy passage and you are wrong on what I applaud.

No, I am not going to stop. You have not shown how I was wrong nor have you shown that I was wrong on what you applaud. All I can do is read and reply to your posts. If your postings do not accurately represent your views please let me know.

 

[Revmitchell]

No, I am not going to stop. You have not shown how I was wrong nor have you shown that I was wrong on what you applaud. All I can do is read and reply to your posts. If your postings do not accurately represent your views please let me know.

1Ti 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

Sigh...The Timothy passage was a warning to Timothy to act as a Pastor and to be careful not to let his age become evident as he was a young pastor. He did not want Timothy to act in such a way that the church would be resentful of his young age as a pastor.

As far as my posts what you have said does not accurately represent my post. Nothing I have said lines up with your false accusation.

 

[Martin]

1Ti 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

Sigh...The Timothy passage was a warning to Timothy to act as a Pastor and to be careful not to let his age become evident as he was a young pastor. He did not want Timothy to act in such a way that the church would be resentful of his young age as a pastor.

==I don't disagree with your understanding of the text as much as I thought I would. The culture Timothy lived in place a lot of importance on age (as your post did). Paul is warning Timothy not to let people look down on him because of his age. Why? Because of his example as a mature Christian. You looked down upon a fellow Christian because of their age. You disagreed with the point he made and you went right to the age factor. That, in my view, is a violation of 1Timothy 4:12. Your understanding of the text does not change that point.

 

[windcatcher]

That is the kind of unBiblical logic that the Apostle Paul, and God Himself, warned against (Jer 1:6-8, 1Tim 4:12). Besides, you are in no place to determine (judge) who can and who cannot have "solid foundational beliefs".

While we each have a right to opinion.... we don't have to agree.


This is not the type of rebuke which one should be ashamed of... because it really was not a rebuke as much as a careful observation. It should be an encouragement to the recipient to continue in the Word and learn what God has to say and embrace the offense it is to God as opposed to succumming to the persuasions of men who would have us compromise. We can have compassion for those who are bound by sin without compromise for the sin.

This perverted lifestyle is a choice just as much as any s@x is a choice. The current generation doesn't know the power or the meaning of just saying 'no' when they've been given so many 'tools' to tear down the natural consequences of choice upon their behavior, which stood in the way with some natural restraint to preserve for some their purity of conscience and experience until they came into the acceptance or maturity of the gospel. And since the advent of the s'xual revolution of the late 60's and early 70's, that 'revolution' which was primarily aimed at youth... but also claimed many who were older...... has now progressed from what used to be normal heteros'xual expression to other perversions which are now generally taught in public education and talked about openly in society as though acceptable and even admirable.

May I remind you concerning the scriptures..... Paul and Barnabas had a 'falling out' regarding a youth.... It was to the benefit of both and part of God's plan. Paul would have been encumbered, restrained from his calling, with the patience and mentoring of a youth and teaming together in a alliance which would have slowed down the work to which he was called with such urgency and conviction. On the other hand, God had give Barnabas the capacity for mentoring and encouragement, patience for a more relationalship involvement to see beyond the difficulties of youthful inexperience and to recognize the power of God to develop the capacities into a maturity, which was a profit for his patience. Paul later recognized this.... and profited by it. Was either of them wrong? I don't think so. They each were responsible to God for his own obediance and calling. It is very possible that had they agreement in this matter, it would have been against obedience to God in his calling upon each and their ministries and their example to us would have suffered. In the church today..... we need a balance of individuals .......... some who have patience to mentor and teach and see the potential in others and some who are objective and less patient and put it all on the line.... which helps us all to keep the goal in focus. In the first we observe the love and compassion and sympathy which, if carried to the extreme.... allows compromise to creep in. In the other, we see pragmatism, determination, strength, focus...... which if carried to the extreme, could become judgemental, cruel, legalistic. But God determines the balance and the former is reminded to keep focus and the latter to preserve God's love for the sinner.

 

[Revmitchell]

Paul is warning Timothy not to let people look down on him because of his age. Why? Because of his example as a mature Christian. You looked down upon a fellow Christian because of their age.

First, I did not look down on anyone. My words to Paul3144 in no way indicate anything of the sort. Second Paul was warning Timothy to be careful of how Timothy acted so he would not be despised because of his age. The responsibility was on Timothy to act grave and sober and to not be childish. If you wanted to use this passage correctly Paul3144 would have to be a young pastor and you would need to be speaking to him. This is my last word on this.

 

[windcatcher]

The Ugandan pastors said the law is needed because incidents of homosexual abuse, recruitment of children into homosexual practice and promotion of homosexuality by organizations and in schools.

They said they don't want Uganda to repeat the mistake of Western societies like the United States, "where the issue of homosexuality was treated with kid-gloves as a minor, private issue, but these societies are waking up too late on realizing that the matter affects how their entire society is ran, what children are taught at school and literally what everybody 'must believe and practice.'"

They also cited the "take-over by homosexuals of western institutions that should have remained as defenders and protectors of moral integrity in society, particularly the church, to the extent that even evangelical church leaders in America no longer protest when a practicing homosexual is appointed into pastoral leadership in the church."

The Ugandan pastors also called on Warren to denounce the recent appointment of a lesbian as assistant bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles, the second openly gay bishop in the worldwide Anglican communion.

"The ordination of Mary Glasspool, a lesbian, as a bishop in Los Angeles without any condemnation from you has increased the widening gap between the global South church in Africa and the global North church in Europe and America," the ministers said. "In these increasingly dark days, we encourage you not to give in to the temptation to water down what the Bible says so as not to offend people."

The letter's signers described Warren as a friend who have bought many of his books and been blessed by them. "Do not let the pressure of bloggers and popular media intimidate you into becoming a negotiator for homosexual pedophilia rights in Africa," the letter said.

The pastors quoted Warren from 2007 as saying "The Bible says evil has to be opposed. Evil has to be stopped. The Bible does not say negotiate with evil. It says stop it. Stop evil."

"Since the Bible says that the giant of homosexuality is an 'abomination' or a great evil, you cannot achieve the PEACE plan without a purpose-driven confrontation with evil," the pastors wrote, referring both to Warren's best-selling book The Purpose Driven Life and his ambitious plan to apply his purpose-driven principles to improve life in Africa.

The pastors said there has been a lot of misinformation about applying the death penalty to gays. While the legislation under consideration reserves capital punishment only for aggravated acts like the rape of a child, the ministers said they support reducing the sentence for aggravated homosexuality from death to 20 years in prison.

It seems from this article that the pastors were hoping for either encouragement or guidance from a pastor in the US who has both a high profile publically, and is already involved in the globlization and ecumentalism. If Warren doesn't know that God is opposed..... strongly opposed to sodomites and perversions... I know because the Bible tells me so.

If Warren could not endorse their efforts, then he should not have entered into this arena. It would have been better that he had no comment rather than to discourage them or positive way to direct their efforts.

These pastors look to the US, which has sent missionaries, doctors and nurses, teachers, well builders and food and medications...... under the banner of the cross...... but who have allowed compromise creep into their own seminaries, pulpits, positions of church leadership...... and have not stood against the swelling of a amoral society in its leadership or its laws or its community. They don't need the import of our corruption!

'Divorce and remarriage is acceptible'..... people make excuses ' the holy spirit' told them their ex partner was no good and gave them a new partner and we take them at their word against the Word of God..... I've been divorced and remarried, satisfactorialy so by man's standards.... but I will say..... it was not in the will of God... nor at the time... and I was young and needed guidance and I was not so deep in the Word... a pastor did not correctly guide me by showing the scripture and confirming the Word nor encouraging me to the possiblities that I could live a happy, though celibate life, in obediance to God if I could not reconcile with my husband. Yes, its good to know that Jesus saved me from my sins.... past, present, future... but there is more joy in obediance to God and an unblemished testamony. But we don't have testimonies....hardly ever in the church anymore. We don't have standards to which the strong hold fast and the weak are encourage to grow stronger by their struggles.

It appears to me that these pastors are attempting to hold up a standard for all Christians in their country to be holy. Doesn't God call us to 'be ye holy as I am holy.' While we know that this is impossible, do we depend on the sacrificial grace of our Lord who paid the price for our sin so that He could give us a garment of righteousness? Do we hear him when he says to follow him? Where does it teach that we should sin more so that grace may abound more.... or does it? Does the Bible teach that we should teach others to sin or uphold those which do so? Aren't we called upon to resist evil? Does that apply only to a person and his household or does it also apply wherever we have power and influence... in business.... if a law maker..... if a teacher..... if a 'common' laborer?

In contrast..... what does this say about the evidence of the character of our faith in our living and its expression and influence upon society ..... when a society which was dominated by a majority who professed they were "Christian" cannot resist the corruption of the mores which influence both behavior and law? What does this say when other societies build upon the influence of their own religion can succeed in establishing laws which maintain a code of modesty in dress, a sobriety in indulgence, a code of social deportment which discourages flagrant adultry....seductive behavor....fornication, or which eliminates or controls excessive usury or gain from those who must needs to borrow?

And by what right do we have to judge another people in the making of their laws (which should be their own business) by a constitution which was purposely designed for us.... especially when we don't even stick by it ourselves?

The pastors in Uganda may or may not have the right law written yet..... but I think they have the right spirit and I pray God will give them the power and courage to hold to their convictions.:godisgood:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Right and it appears the pastors in Uganda feel he was unduly influencing the issue.

I honestly don't blame them having lived in Kampala myself. HIV is the major cause of death in that country. Though it affects people of both sexual appatites it is definately more common per population in homosexual communities. Why should the Ugandan government pay for health care of a community oblivious to their contribution to the spread of the disease. Why should Rich Warren say anything about it?

 

[Aaron]

Since Uganda is not part of the United States we cannot apply United States law or logic to this situation. Uganda is a sovereign nation and they must do what they think is best. They should not have asked Rick Warren to endorse their law and they should not be surprised that he refused to do so. After all, their new law would not pass muster under the United States constitution.

The argument isn't whether or not U.S. law applies, the argument is should Uganda pass such a law.

 

[pinoybaptist]

pinoy, you might consider rephrasing your post in context of this thread.

you're welcome to rephrase it for me, Aaron, I don't know what else to say.

I was responding to another poster, and meant that they all can be as sodomized as they want, but when they want to go into public schools and tell children their lifestyle is acceptable, then it becomes public business.

 

[Aaron]

It was just a joke, pinoy.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Gays give me the creeps. I would rather be in the presence of Pharaohs wife. And still scarper.