Ugandan pastors blast Rick Warren for opposing anti-gay law

[preachinjesus]

The Ugandan law against homosexuality is an abomination and it demeans basic human rights. From what I recall Pastor Warren tried to be quiet about his disagreement until he was called out by popular media here. I could be wrong.

I am happy that Pastor Warren opposed this terrible law. We as a people, particularly as Christ followers, should oppose any law that pushes this deeply into anyone's life. To say that this behavior is punishable by death is so horrible...it is only a step away from totalitarianism.

FTR, I am not a fan of homosexuality and oppose any form of legal recognition of same sex marriage. That said I don't believe we as a society should ever prohibit behavior at that level. You can't legislate away sin. If you want tot change behavior you must begin with the heart.

 

[Martin]

The argument isn't whether or not U.S. law applies, the argument is should Uganda pass such a law.

==That is up to the government, laws, and constitution of Uganda. The United States really has no say in the matter at all. For the record, however, I would oppose such a law in the United States. Not because I have tolerance for homosexuality, I don't. I would oppose such a law because I believe in the constitution as the rule of law and limited government.

 

[pinoybaptist]

..... I would rather be in the presence of Pharaohs wife. And still scarper.

please, please tell me you are going to run.raying:

 

[Magnetic Poles]

No it isn't. The First Amendment guarantees free political speech. It does not protect profanity.

Wrong. This is why pornography is legal. If speech you find offensive is banned today, it may be your speech that I find offensive and get banned tomorrow.

 

[annsni]

I haven't read up on the whole issue to know both sides but I figured I'd ask you guys to tell me so I can continue to be lazy.

Isn't the law one that will allow capital punishment on anyone found to be engaged in homosexual practices?

Is it that Rick Warren is against this harsh punishment for the "crime"?

Or is it that Rick Warren is pro-gay and that's why they are up in arms?

I'm guessing Rick Warren is against killing gays and the pastors there are not happy about that?

 

[windcatcher]

I haven't read up on the whole issue to know both sides but I figured I'd ask you guys to tell me so I can continue to be lazy.

Isn't the law one that will allow capital punishment on anyone found to be engaged in homosexual practices?

Is it that Rick Warren is against this harsh punishment for the "crime"?

Or is it that Rick Warren is pro-gay and that's why they are up in arms?

I'm guessing Rick Warren is against killing gays and the pastors there are not happy about that?

From the content of this article.... it appears RW presented no other guidance than that he was against the law as it was presented to him.

And, according to the report, it is not capital punishment for homosexual practice but what they define as aggravated homosexual practice. As words are sometimes expressive of more or less in one culture than in another... and may not be as accurate if translated as the original... I don't really know ..... so it would be better for more information than making a judgement.

 

[windcatcher]

The Ugandan law against homosexuality is an abomination and it demeans basic human rights. From what I recall Pastor Warren tried to be quiet about his disagreement until he was called out by popular media here. I could be wrong.

I am happy that Pastor Warren opposed this terrible law. We as a people, particularly as Christ followers, should oppose any law that pushes this deeply into anyone's life. To say that this behavior is punishable by death is so horrible...it is only a step away from totalitarianism.

FTR, I am not a fan of homosexuality and oppose any form of legal recognition of same sex marriage. That said I don't believe we as a society should ever prohibit behavior at that level. You can't legislate away sin. If you want tot change behavior you must begin with the heart.

I totallly disagree! We used to have laws against the practice of homosexuality. This kept it secret and confined to the bedrooms of most of those who practiced it. The communities, themselves, pretty much directed the force of the law by their reporting to authrorities their complaints and their persuasion on the courts as a jury. Many times, within the community, there might be persons living and associating in such a way that others wihtin the community either suspected or knew they were sodomites..... but were generally accepted within the community as neighbors and in business as they weren't flaunting their values and lifestyle in the faces of neighsbors and particularly children.

Just like profanity is governed by laws.... it is in the gray area of being both expressive speech and being offensive within the acceptance of public decorrum. There are other means of expressing the same meaning without offending others..... therefore it is considered within the rights of the people within a community to determine when and where it is offensive and criminal based upon their level of agreement as to what is disturbance of the peace etc. and what is not. Pornography and the business surrounding it, used to be prosecuted more under similar laws. While a community might give tolerance to the sodomites living within it ...... and even minister to different ones, when in need..... generally communities did not use to support or encourage their behavior, nor tolerate public displays (nor, for that matter, tolerate much public displays of heterosexual behavior), but the sexual revolution, the music, acceptance and proliferation of Woodstock mentality through out our country, changes in cinema etc.... have broken down the mores which used to be upheld in many communities..... and larger metro areas have pressured through their organizations, their need to prevent or enforce upon 'harder' crimes, and their increased tolerance and changing mores upon those within the cities... and placed pressure upon communities for additional 'permissions'.

The term 'aggravated homosexuality' sounds to me like a cloaked way of saying 'rape' or a sexually violent act upon another without consent or beneath the age of consent: In such case, I don't think the death penalty is too strong, if proven beyond the shadow of doubt, if that is the agreement of the people. We can acknowledge that in some cultures, this has been an acceptible violence of war by its soldiers as a part of terrorising the conquered: Where it has been an acceptible act of soildering.... it would be hard to change that military behavior without making it subject to law and discipline, and include it in the discipline of officers who knowingly commit such offenses or allow those under their command to commit such offences upon the populace.

What originates in the bedroom.... should stay in the bedroom. What is public is not expressive of any form of intimacy. These people who flaunt their sexuallity in the face of others are among others who do similar displays. They are dehumanizing intimate behaviors of communication and should not be on public display....... and certainly not the subjects of school lessons.

 

[Aaron]

The Ugandan law against homosexuality is an abomination and it demeans basic human rights.

You're saying people have the right to be homosexuals?

FTR, I am not a fan of homosexuality and oppose any form of legal recognition of same sex marriage. That said I don't believe we as a society should ever prohibit behavior at that level. You can't legislate away sin. If you want tot change behavior you must begin with the heart.

You're such a naif.

 

[preachinjesus]

You're saying people have the right to be homosexuals?

Absolutely, in terms of human rights...just like people have a right to be heterosexuals, promiscuous, alcoholics, depressed, drug/substance abusers, speeders, etc.

When we sentence people to death for moral actions we teeter on the edge of the arrogance of the Crusades and Inquisitions. We deny the love of Christ and charitability of grace.

You're such a naif.

Will someone please explain to me how this kind of attack is permissible around here? Really, this is how you want to wage your argument?

 

[Aaron]

Absolutely, in terms of human rights...just like people have a right to be heterosexuals, promiscuous, alcoholics, depressed, drug/substance abusers, speeders, etc.

Do they have the right to suicide?

What about pedophilia? Do people have the right to be pedophiles?

When we sentence people to death for moral actions we teeter on the edge of the arrogance of the Crusades and Inquisitions. We deny the love of Christ and charitability of grace.

You mean moral actions like murder and theft?

 

[preachinjesus]

Do they have the right to suicide?

It sure is hard to prosecute suicide victims...

What about pedophilia? Do people have the right to be pedophiles?

This is really where I take issue with most fundamentalist attacks against homosexuals. Homosexuals are not pedophiles. You can't equate them as such.

I have friends who are homosexuals and they are not pedophiles. They are not lusting after little kids. They are living a different life that is full of struggles, but they are not going after these little ones. This kind of argumentation is as inflammatory as it is derogatory. (Of course this argumentation is par for the course for you.)

You mean moral actions like murder and theft?

Different level of legal action here. Murder and theft are immoral actions against other people. By committing either you impinge on another's rights.

From a moral standpoint the rule of law does nothing against adulterers who act together. It does nothing to people who engage in premarital sexual relations. It does nothing to couples who enage in swinger behavior. It does nothing and should do nothing.

Now if someone takes their sexual behavior and forces it onto another or a minor that is a different situation.

Creating a society of mindless automatons might appeal to some but the freedom to choose morality is a vital part of a free society.

 

[Johnv]

so the purpose driven writer is pro-gay ?

Uh, no. How anyone can come to that conslusion is beyond all manner of reason.

The ugandan legislation goes way beyond logic, and anyone who supports it is not fit to be call themselves a friend of Jesus Christ.

 

[Aaron]

It sure is hard to prosecute suicide victims...

That wasn't the question. Do people have the right to commit suicide?

This is really where I take issue with most fundamentalist attacks against homosexuals. Homosexuals are not pedophiles. You can't equate them as such.

I didn't. I just asked about pedophiles. We're talking about basic human rights here. Let me rephrase the question: Do people have the right to be be sexual deviants? Is that a God-given, unalienable right?

I have friends who are homosexuals . . .

That's too bad. Your witness should be such that they hate you.

. . . and they are not pedophiles.

So? Their sexual deviants. They're unnatural and mentally sick.

They are not lusting after little kids.

What about those that do? Do they have the right to be sexually stimulated by the appearance of little kids?

Different level of legal action here. Murder and theft are immoral actions against other people. By committing either you impinge on another's rights.

Suicide is self-murder. Does a man have the right to kill himself?

From a moral standpoint the rule of law does nothing against adulterers who act together. It does nothing to people who engage in premarital sexual relations. It does nothing to couples who enage in swinger behavior. It does nothing and should do nothing.

So prostitution should be legal?

Creating a society of mindless automatons might appeal to some but the freedom to choose morality is a vital part of a free society.

You're such a naif.

 

[Revmitchell]

Homosexuality and pedophilia are equally repugnant immoral and perverse. One is not less acceptable than the other. And men who want boys are homosexuals.

 

[Johnv]

Why are we debating homosexuality and pedophilia? There's no argument to them being morally wrong.

The topic here is the Ugandan legislation. The Ugandan legislation goes so far over the deep end to persecuterpeople, no discerning Christian should support it. Evef if one takes the position that the Ugandans can legislate as they see fit, there can be no reason to take issue with Warren's outpoken opposition to it.

 

[webdog]

When did Rick Warren move to Uganda?

 

[annsni]

When did Rick Warren move to Uganda?

I think he was just asked about the situation and he responded.

 

[webdog]

I think he was just asked about the situation and he responded.

...then my question is...why are Ugandan pastors asking Rick Warren for his opinion or direction?

 

[annsni]

...then my question is...why are Ugandan pastors asking Rick Warren for his opinion or direction?

OK - I had to go back to read the article and apparently he was asked about it (I don't know by whom) and initially he didn't answer but then it sounds like in a letter (to who?? I don't know) he did finally respond.

After initially declining to take a position on the controversial law, Warren broke silence with a letter dated "Christmas 2009" strongly denouncing the anti-gay law and urging pastors in Uganda to work for its defeat

"As an American pastor, it is not my role to interfere with the politics of other nations, but it IS my role to speak out on moral issues," Warren wrote. "It is my role to shepherd other pastors who look to me for guidance, and it is my role to correct lies, errors, and false reports when others associate my name with a law that I had nothing to do with, completely oppose, and vigorously condemn."

Here is the text of his letter to the Ugandan pastors from www.rickwarren.com

Dear fellow pastors in Uganda,

I greet you in the name and love of Jesus Christ as I send this encyclical video to the pastors of the churches of Uganda with greetings from your fellow pastors around the world. May grace and peace be with you this Christmas season.

We are all familiar with Edmund Burke's insight that, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." That is why I'm sharing my heart with you today. As an American pastor, it is not my role to interfere with the politics of other nations, but it IS my role to speak out on moral issues. It is my role to shepherd other pastors who look to me for guidance, and it is my role to correct lies, errors, and false reports when others associate my name with a law that I had nothing to do with, completely oppose, and vigorously condemn. I am referring to the pending law under consideration by the Ugandan Parliament, known as the Anti-Homosexuality Bill.

As a pastor, I've found the most effective way to build consensus for social change is usually through direct quiet diplomacy and behind the scenes dialogue, rather than through media. But because I didn't rush to make a public statement, some erroneously concluded that I supported this terrible bill, and some even claimed I was a sponsor of the bill. You in Uganda know that is untrue.

I am releasing this video to you and your congregations to correct these untruths and to urge you to make a positive difference at this critical point in your nation.

While we can never deny or water down what God's Word clearly teaches about sexuality, at the same time the church must stand to protect the dignity of all individuals -- as Jesus did and commanded all of us to do.

Let me be clear that God's Word states that all sex outside of marriage is not what God intends. Jesus reaffirmed what Moses wrote that marriage is intended to be between one man and one woman committed to each other for life. Jesus also taught us that the greatest commandment is to love our neighbors as ourselves. Since God created all, and Jesus suffered and died for all, then we are to treat all with respect. The Great Commandment has been the centerpiece of my life and ministry for over 35 years.

Of course, there are thousands of evil laws enacted around the world and I cannot speak to pastors about every one of them, but I am taking the extraordinary step of speaking to you -- the pastors of Uganda and spiritual leaders of your nation -- for five reasons:

First, the potential law is unjust, extreme and un-Christian toward homosexuals, requiring the death penalty in some cases. If I am reading the proposed bill correctly, this law would also imprison anyone convicted of homosexual practice.

Second, the law would force pastors to report their pastoral conversations with homosexuals to authorities.

Third, it would have a chilling effect on your ministry to the hurting. As you know, in Africa, it is the churches that are bearing the primary burden of providing care for people infected with HIV/AIDS. If this bill passed, homosexuals who are HIV positive will be reluctant to seek or receive care, comfort and compassion from our churches out of fear of being reported. You and I know that the churches of Uganda are the truly caring communities where people receive hope and help, not condemnation.

Fourth, ALL life, no matter how humble or broken, whether unborn or dying, is precious to God. My wife Kay and I have devoted our lives and our ministry to saving the lives of people, including homosexuals, who are HIV positive. It would be inconsistent to save some lives and wish death on others. We're not just pro-life. We are whole life.

Finally, the freedom to make moral choices, and our right to free expression are gifts endowed by God. Uganda is a democratic country with a remarkable and wise people, and in a democracy everyone has a right to speak up. For these reasons, I urge you, the pastors of Uganda, to speak out against the proposed law.

My role, and the role of the PEACE Plan, whether in Uganda or any other country, is always pastoral, not political. I vigorously oppose anything that hinders the goals of the PEACE Plan: Promoting reconciliation, Equipping ethical leaders, Assisting the poor, Caring for the sick, and Educating the next generation, which includes the protection of children.

Please know that you and the people of Uganda are in my constant prayers. This Christmas season I pray you will experience the three purposes of Christmas as announced by the angel at the birth of Christ. First, the angel said, "I bring you good news of great joy." Christmas is a time of celebration -- Jesus is the Good News for the whole world. God came to earth to be with us! Next, the angel said, "For unto us is born this day a Savior, who is Christ the Lord!" Christmas is a time for salvation. If we didn't need a Savior, God would not have sent one. Finally, the angel said, "Peace on earth, good will toward men." Christmas is a time for reconciliation. The message of Christmas is good cheer, good news, and good will for the whole world.

It is my prayer that the churches and people of Uganda will experience all three of these this season. May God bless you; and may God bless the nation of Uganda.

Christmas 2009

 

[Aaron]

Why are we debating homosexuality and pedophilia? There's no argument to them being morally wrong.

Then you agree men do not have the right to engage in homosexual behavior.