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Unapologetic Dispensational Truths - Is the KJV Required For Us to Believe It.

Eternally Grateful

Active Member
I do not mean to be unkind, rude, hateful, or mean but is this an excuse to be ignorant?

God rebuked men for not understanding the times long before they had a complete Bible like we do today. Neither did they have the indwelling divine teacher and 6k years of human history to give us assurance of his providence and memory of what he said. God has given us the day and time prophecy of his coming but he has not given us the day and hour prophecy. I am good with that.

I know the metaphorical thousand year day is the 7th day sabbath rest. 6 days have passed.
God did rebuke

but he also will rebuke us for trying to read things into scripture that is not there

If America falls (which I believe it will) it does not signify the end times is near.. The US is only a few hundred years old.

and to my recollection is not found in even end times prophesy. so if this is the case. it does not exist them either. or at least. they are no longer a world power..

Jesus said of that hour no man knows.

thats his words

We also have matt 24 and the birth pangs.. which I believe is more of a proof we are nearing the end times, than anythign else.

But even that, Jesus said the end is not yet.

the next sign we will be given we can know for sure will be when the temple is rebuilt and the man of sin enters.. Until then. all we can do is guess..
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Being a dispensationalist, I've been following this thread with interest. I'd like to point out some things from the history of the theology.

1. It's founder is generally conceded to be John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). He was a Brethren founder and evangelist. I've read his biography and some of his writings. I have found no evidence that he held the KJV in special regard. He was extremely proficient with the Greek NT, and his NT is extant, with copious notes in the margin. Therefore, it is fair to say he did not get his theology from the KJV.
2. The main populizer of the theology was C. I. Scofield (1843-1921). I have always had a Scofield reference Bible, and have read all the notes. He often would correct the KJV from the Greek. (Ruckman would have a fit! :Biggrin) In neither his reference Bible nor his little book laying out the theology called Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (1896) does he appear to formulate his theology from the KJV. I see nothing in his writings to validate the OP.
3. In the 2nd half of the 20th century into the 21st century, Dallas Theological Seminary was the main source of dispensational theology. DTS is very strong on the NASB, not the KJV. The main theologian from there was Charles Ryrie (1925-2016). I use his book as the text book for the course I teach on the subject: Dispensationalism (Moody, 2007). I've read the book through and given quizzes and tests on it, but never seen a sign that Ryrie required the KJV to formulate his theology.

Conclusion: No, the KJV is not required to accept dispensationalism.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Without claiming everything he's said is PERFECTLY PERFECT, this fellow below gives a great take on one of the most Astronomically Wonderful and Magnificent Masterpieces AND GIFTS OF ANY KIND FROM GOD THAT HE HAS EVER GIVEN TO MANKIND.

As opposed to your idea that "God blessed us", I have to go with God's Spiritual Advice in His Own Words, to;
"have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness". When you consider the most profound influences upon certain publications were by two individuals who founded "Societies" for the "study" and practice of anything Supernatural, with the ONE MAJOR EXCEPTION OF THE SUPERNATURAL DIVINITY AND HOLY SPIRIT ASSOCIATED WITH THE GOD OF THE BIBLE They are two folks whom we have no reason that is on record that anyone knows about that would confirm that they never even came close to claiming the Name of JESUS CHRIST, much less living for Him, if guessing something like whether they died and went to Heaven.

Something is too rotten in Denmark, with all that, for my taste. And too much rock solid confirmation, beginning with deleting nearly 20% of the New Testament, TO MAKE IT EASIER = TO NOT HAVE TO READ IT?

And then what's such a big deal about the Old Testament? Why not delete some enormous percentage of it? Didn't they feel up to it?

"What are the benefits of using the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible over newer translations
such as the English Standard Version (ESV) or the New American Standard Bible (NASB)?
What are the drawbacks? What is your opinion on this matter?

By Noone Kennedy:
"The Authorized KJV is the last Bible translation in any form of English to exclusively and faithfully translate the traditional text (textus receptus) word for word and literally, without any influence from the critical text. You need no other study tools to use it, just time and dedication. It is its own dictionary. Every word is defined by context, unlike the NKJV that uses words like “scruples” defined nowhere in it. It is its own reference tool. You can fallow words and phrases throughout it, like “the way” or “lamp” “the light” “faith” etc… I've found no other Bible that does this consistently. The language itself is a tool.

"In the language of the Greek New Testament and Hebrew Old Testament, there is a very distinct difference between the second-person singular and the second-person plural pronouns. We make no difference in modern English, both singular and plural are translated into you. However, in old English there exists a difference, just as there is in Greek and Hebrew. As a result, the old English used in the Authorized Version gives far more precise translation than would modern English. In our Authorized Version, THEE, THOU, THY, and THINE are always singular. YOU, YE, and YOUR, are always plural. If the second-person pronoun starts with a "t" then it is singular. If it starts with a "y" it is plural. This is faithful to the original languages. They tell you exactly who and exactly how many are being spoken to, eliminating possible identification errors. No other bible does this.

"The form and language are poetic, making it easier to memorize.

"It has something called cognitive scaffolding incorporated into it. Basically, it teaches you how to read it and how to understand it as you read it. No other version does this.

"It has been consistently rated at a 5th-grade level. So even a child or the mentally challenged will understand it, given time and exposure.

"But the two things I like most are.
#1 It simplifies study, you don't need to study another language, a dictionary, a lexicon, or a commentary, you just need to read and reread it, instead of spending your time in dictionaries or leaning on experts.
#2 When I'm reading it I know I'm reading what Christians read for centuries. The traditional text of the KJV (textus receptus) is traceable through history for 2000 years. The persecuted Christians of the first century read the textus receptus, John Bunyan's Bible was a translation of the textus receptus. The Puritan’s Bible was a translation of the textus receptus. The textus receptus is the text of the martyrs. It has a chain of custody for its OT dating back to 1400BC when it was first written down, and the NT has a chain of custody going back to the churches of the apostles.

"The critical text (vaticanus, alexandrus, sinaiticus) use by modern versions disagrees with themselves 7–8000 times and disagree with the traditional text (textus receptus) more than 30,000 times. The critical text is so filled with errors, mistakes, and contradictions that no one has ever translated it fully into a mass-marketed bible. If they did, it would be indefensibly and obviously c*****t to even the most basic laymen. The traditional text (textus receptus) is composed of 6059 Greek, 10.000 Latin, and 9300 various other language manuscripts that agree %98+/-."
Typically NKJVO blatther, as the author does not understand textual criticism, nor that if the KJVO used their own logic that cuts down other translations, they would be forced tro concede that their 1611 Kjv is just as bads as MV to them all are now
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Being a dispensationalist, I've been following this thread with interest. I'd like to point out some things from the history of the theology.

1. It's founder is generally conceded to be John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). He was a Brethren founder and evangelist. I've read his biography and some of his writings. I have found no evidence that he held the KJV in special regard. He was extremely proficient with the Greek NT, and his NT is extant, with copious notes in the margin. Therefore, it is fair to say he did not get his theology from the KJV.
2. The main populizer of the theology was C. I. Scofield (1843-1921). I have always had a Scofield reference Bible, and have read all the notes. He often would correct the KJV from the Greek. (Ruckman would have a fit! :Biggrin) In neither his reference Bible nor his little book laying out the theology called Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (1896) does he appear to formulate his theology from the KJV. I see nothing in his writings to validate the OP.
3. In the 2nd half of the 20th century into the 21st century, Dallas Theological Seminary was the main source of dispensational theology. DTS is very strong on the NASB, not the KJV. The main theologian from there was Charles Ryrie (1925-2016). I use his book as the text book for the course I teach on the subject: Dispensationalism (Moody, 2007). I've read the book through and given quizzes and tests on it, but never seen a sign that Ryrie required the KJV to formulate his theology.

Conclusion: No, the KJV is not required to accept dispensationalism.
Even as strong a Dispy as Dr J Vernon Magee would many times use his own translation from the God, or use the new Scofield in places where he thought would "correct" the Kjv
 

Ben1445

Active Member
I do not mean to be unkind, rude, hateful, or mean but is this an excuse to be ignorant?

God rebuked men for not understanding the times long before they had a complete Bible like we do today. Neither did they have the indwelling divine teacher and 6k years of human history to give us assurance of his providence and memory of what he said. God has given us the day and time prophecy of his coming but he has not given us the day and hour prophecy. I am good with that.

I know the metaphorical thousand year day is the 7th day sabbath rest. 6 days have passed.
If you look at the Jewish calendar, we have not yet passed 6. There are also some considerations that are made by some people regarding times of repentance that push the last possible moment into the 2200’s. I don’t say I agree with them. I don’t even remember where I read it. It’s also something that I don’t try to pinpoint. I do take a natural interest in the subject.
 

Ben1445

Active Member
God did rebuke

but he also will rebuke us for trying to read things into scripture that is not there

If America falls (which I believe it will) it does not signify the end times is near.. The US is only a few hundred years old.
I used to think that but I don’t believe it is necessary. There are many nations that are with Israel in the end that are not usually considered Jewish allies.
In short, end times is not Israel against all.
I don’t mean that the US will necessarily be in tact by the Millennial reign but by then it won’t matter.
and to my recollection is not found in even end times prophesy. so if this is the case. it does not exist them either. or at least. they are no longer a world power..
Dan. 2 America is included in the feet
(Sorry in advance to all you anti-KJVers. For those of you who might be confused “Thee” and “thou” are pronouns and can usually be very easily understood as “you.” :Biggrin And now having upset the KJVO for changing the words, here is my relevant KJV quote for Dan. 2 which I am included in and live in America.)

Dan. 2:41-44
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Jesus said of that hour no man knows.

thats his words

We also have matt 24 and the birth pangs.. which I believe is more of a proof we are nearing the end times, than anythign else.

But even that, Jesus said the end is not yet.

the next sign we will be given we can know for sure will be when the temple is rebuilt and the man of sin enters.. Until then. all we can do is guess..
I have have heard of a temple replica (that I can’t find anywhere) that is supposed to be a scale model, large enough to walk into. I was told it is supposed open this year but I haven’t been able to find a mention of it much less a location.
There are Jews who don’t expect the temple to be built until the Messiah comes.
At that point they will allow him (lowercase intentionally) to rebuild the temple.
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(And I would like to hear all you preterists explain what was meant by this verse.)
 

Eternally Grateful

Active Member
I used to think that but I don’t believe it is necessary. There are many nations that are with Israel in the end that are not usually considered Jewish allies.
In short, end times is not Israel against all.
I don’t mean that the US will necessarily be in tact by the Millennial reign but by then it won’t matter.

Dan. 2 America is included in the feet
(Sorry in advance to all you anti-KJVers. For those of you who might be confused “Thee” and “thou” are pronouns and can usually be very easily understood as “you.” :Biggrin And now having upset the KJVO for changing the words, here is my relevant KJV quote for Dan. 2 which I am included in and live in America.)

Dan. 2:41-44
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
ok where is America, where do you get America out of a 10 nation empire which will be the new Rome?
I have have heard of a temple replica (that I can’t find anywhere) that is supposed to be a scale model, large enough to walk into. I was told it is supposed open this year but I haven’t been able to find a mention of it much less a location.
There are Jews who don’t expect the temple to be built until the Messiah comes.
At that point they will allow him (lowercase intentionally) to rebuild the temple.
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(And I would like to hear all you preterists explain what was meant by this verse.)
this is speaking of the event jesus spoke of in Matt 24. the abomination of desolation. which will be the sign the great tribulation has started.

so in order for this to happen. at the least a holy of holies must be in place. and the jews would need to be doing sacrifices. because remember this prince causes sacrifices to cease..
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Typically NKJVO blatther, as the author does not understand textual criticism, nor that if the KJVO used their own logic that cuts down other translations, they would be forced tro concede that their 1611 Kjv is just as bads as MV to them all are now
To avoid confusion, could you just confirm that you meant, "Typically KJVO blatther,"not "Typically NKJVO blatther?" I have never come across anybody who is New King James Version Only.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
ok where is America, where do you get America out of a 10 nation empire which will be the new Rome?
Nations that show up in the prophetic portions of the scriptures are those who interact with Israel over time. Many nations have persecuted Israel during her history and the tribulation time is called "the day of the LORD" and in several places called the day of vergence. God has not forgotten what they did to his people and he is a jealous God and will deal with them for their crimes.

Obviously America has no ancient history with Israel because we are a relatively young nation. We have been a friend of Israel as she has become a nation.

Nations are judged by God on the basis of their relationship with Israel. There are several places where nations are named in end times prophesy. For instance, read the burden of the nations beginning in Isaiah 13 (of all places) and deals with those of our past. God keeps score and time is only a week old for him.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Being a dispensationalist, I've been following this thread with interest. I'd like to point out some things from the history of the theology.

1. It's founder is generally conceded to be John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). He was a Brethren founder and evangelist. I've read his biography and some of his writings. I have found no evidence that he held the KJV in special regard. He was extremely proficient with the Greek NT, and his NT is extant, with copious notes in the margin. Therefore, it is fair to say he did not get his theology from the KJV.
2. The main populizer of the theology was C. I. Scofield (1843-1921). I have always had a Scofield reference Bible, and have read all the notes. He often would correct the KJV from the Greek. (Ruckman would have a fit! :Biggrin) In neither his reference Bible nor his little book laying out the theology called Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (1896) does he appear to formulate his theology from the KJV. I see nothing in his writings to validate the OP.
3. In the 2nd half of the 20th century into the 21st century, Dallas Theological Seminary was the main source of dispensational theology. DTS is very strong on the NASB, not the KJV. The main theologian from there was Charles Ryrie (1925-2016). I use his book as the text book for the course I teach on the subject: Dispensationalism (Moody, 2007). I've read the book through and given quizzes and tests on it, but never seen a sign that Ryrie required the KJV to formulate his theology.

Conclusion: No, the KJV is not required to accept dispensationalism.
Thank you for your input. My op was a question, not a statement and your answer is appreciated.

I bought a book by Charles Ryrie once but did not read it. I can't remember the title. It was before my KJV only convictions were solidified in my own mind. I am not sure why people believe and teach that only professors and scholars from Bible colleges can process spiritual truths. The scriptures do not teach that. Seems like every one has their favorite list of heroes.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
Nations that show up in the prophetic portions of the scriptures are those who interact with Israel over time. Many nations have persecuted Israel during her history and the tribulation time is called "the day of the LORD" and in several places called the day of vergence. God has not forgotten what they did to his people and he is a jealous God and will deal with them for their crimes.

Obviously America has no ancient history with Israel because we are a relatively young nation. We have been a friend of Israel as she has become a nation.

Nations are judged by God on the basis of their relationship with Israel. There are several places where nations are named in end times prophesy. For instance, read the burden of the nations beginning in Isaiah 13 (of all places) and deals with those of our past. God keeps score and time is only a week old for him.
Isa.13 was historically fulfilled
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
"Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt:
8 and they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces [shall be as] flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts,
and in the day of his fierce anger." ( Isaiah 13:6-13 )

Isa.13 was historically fulfilled
I'll have to politely disagree with you, my friend.
I see nowhere in history that this ( for example ) has been fulfilled, as yet.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Isa.13 was historically fulfilled
Statements like that will cause you to lose all credibility as a serious student of the scriptures no matter what translation or paraphrase you are reading.

Having said that, the serious and saved student of prophecy must realize and understand that God employs several different methods of presenting his truths. One of them is "parallels." where one prophesy can be true of more than one historical event; events that share the same features and circumstances, yet at different times. They often have a near and far application and one becomes a metaphor for the orher.

One of the great parallels of the scriptures is that of the suffering of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary typifying the intense refining heat of the tribulation furnace where the sins of Israel will be taken away and the nation purified. Had Israel repented and been born again it would have been the nations in tribulation. Jesus is and was the substitute Lamb of God for Israel. Since they rejected Jesus the Christ, the son of God, they will suffer for their own sins in real time like Jesus did.

The parallels of scriptures must be taught by the indwelling Spirit of God through pure words of God and diligent study by the born again student of them.

Prophetically during this time, Jesus wept.

John 11:35
Jesus wept.
 
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John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thank you for your input. My op was a question, not a statement and your answer is appreciated.

I bought a book by Charles Ryrie once but did not read it. I can't remember the title. It was before my KJV only convictions were solidified in my own mind. I am not sure why people believe and teach that only professors and scholars from Bible colleges can process spiritual truths. The scriptures do not teach that. Seems like every one has their favorite list of heroes.
There are good and bad professors, and good and bad scholars. There are fundamental and conservative and liberal scholars. It's a mixed bag. I believe that true scholarship is a search for truth, and I believe that Ryrie did that, though he is not a "hero" of some kind, just a seeker after truth, and I am too. We both came to dispensational truth through Bible study, and that's the way it should be. His books are excellent sources of true Biblical scholarship, and I use two of them as textbooks.

And our college and seminary only uses the KJV, so there you have it. Amazingly, some KJVO folks are not satisfied when we say that. They want us to be out and out warriors for the KJV. But the KJV doesn't command that, and that is where many KJVO brethren miss out. We do what the Word commands, which is contending for the faith (fundamentalism) and fulfilling the Great Commission.
 
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Eternally Grateful

Active Member
Nations that show up in the prophetic portions of the scriptures are those who interact with Israel over time. Many nations have persecuted Israel during her history and the tribulation time is called "the day of the LORD" and in several places called the day of vergence. God has not forgotten what they did to his people and he is a jealous God and will deal with them for their crimes.

Obviously America has no ancient history with Israel because we are a relatively young nation. We have been a friend of Israel as she has become a nation.

Nations are judged by God on the basis of their relationship with Israel. There are several places where nations are named in end times prophesy. For instance, read the burden of the nations beginning in Isaiah 13 (of all places) and deals with those of our past. God keeps score and time is only a week old for him.
Dan 2 is talking about a specific nation at a specific time. Not over time

41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.

It is a kingdom..
 

Eternally Grateful

Active Member
Statements like that will cause you to lose all credibility as a serious student of the scriptures no matter what translation or paraphrase you are reading.
have you read IS 13?

It was fulfilled

saying it has not yet been fulfilled will cause YOU to lose all credability with anyone who has read it be they a scholar or not
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Dan 2 is talking about a specific nation at a specific time. Not over time

41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.

It is a kingdom..
The nations in this future kingdom are those nations of the past. There can be no other conclusion.

Re 13:1 (chapter 13 of all places) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

For those who understand God's metaphors the source of this kingdom is the key to our understanding it. We have a responsibility to consider them since we are told this about the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Re 1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
 
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