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Unapologetic Dispensational Truths - Is the KJV Required For Us to Believe It.

JD731

Well-Known Member
Prophecy can be seen to have multiple fulfillments. The best example of this is prophecy concerning the coming of Messiah. The coming of Messiah has been fulfilled, but not in full. An example would be found here:

Luke 4:17-20
King James Version

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


So, Scripture concerning His coming has been fulfilled, but not all.


Isaiah 61
King James Version

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.


So, prophecy surrounding His coming has two fulfillments. I would suggest that many times in history God has presented His fierce anger, beginning with the Flood.

God bless.
I heartily agree with everything you said, except the Noah flood. Nowhere did God say he destroyed the first order because of anger. He gave his reason as his grief.

Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

This society lived only under a consciousness of good and evil and had not experienced the attributes of God. They did not disobey the Law of God because they did not have the law from God. Rom 5 tells us this; "12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

This is easily illustrated by a comparison of these two men at different epochs in human history by the same God.

Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. 32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. 9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. 13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

This teaches us that men are responsible to God according to what he has revealed to them.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rom 4:22 And therefore it (his faith in what God said)) was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us (after the law as the operative principle of divine dealing) also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the judge of all the earth) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The point is the righteousness that God demands is given to those before the law, Abraham, during the Law, David, After the Law, us, who simply believes God. See the highlighted section above.

I am concerned that many of the Christian faith will not accept the "IF."
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Dispensational truths of God follows the progression of man born of Adam from his birth to his glorification.

Innocent - Birth/infancy
Conscience - Consciousness of right & wrong
Human Government - Law (beginning in the family)

Promise - Training and Consequence

Law - Standard of God's Judgement and conduct
Grace - Method of forgiveness of God for violating his law
Righteousness - Result of the application of grace for the law breaker

This is the track of a man and a society.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
The time frame for the fulfilling of the prophesy of Isa 13 and 14 that catalogs the burden of Babylon is clearly stated in the text. There can be no doubt about it. I will quote it for you.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

What is the day of the LORD according to the text?

Isa 13:13 (of all places) Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

To say we have seen the fierce anger of the LORD and the results is to dishonor the scriptures with it's faithful prophesy.


Sodom has not been inhabited since God's judgement and Babylon will not be inhabited by men throughout the millennium. This is not empty rhetoric

19 ¶ And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time [is] near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Consider this;

Ac 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

The appointed day is the prophetic "day of the LORD." It begins with the last 42 months of Jacob's trouble. The prophecy appears by this name in 17 books of the Bible and by 12 authors including both Peter and Paul. It is always future tense by all these authors and it is always a coming judgement in it's initial application. It is found in the scriptures 30 times in 29 verses. It is in one verse twice. Thirty is the number for maturity in scripture. It is never anything but vengeance, darkness, judgement as it applies to the nations but it is also the time when the church will be judged at the judgement seat of Christ in heaven for rewards or lack thereof.

Here is the final warning and the arrival of the Day of the LORD;

Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
These are many of the day of the lord verses. There were many separate day of the Lord judgements in the Ot. The final one came upon 1st century Jerusalem as Jesus told them>Mt 24....it was future from those people, but within their lifetime;Mt24:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
Dispensational truths of God follows the progression of man born of Adam from his birth to his glorification.

Innocent - Birth/infancy
Conscience - Consciousness of right & wrong
Human Government - Law (beginning in the family)

Promise - Training and Consequence

Law - Standard of God's Judgement and conduct
Grace - Method of forgiveness of God for violating his law
Righteousness - Result of the application of grace for the law breaker

This is the track of a man and a society.
I learned this dispensational system first, then looking to see what others have help before 1800, I found others had a different biblical understanding. I think what they offer is clear and consistent. I offer to people to take a look at it.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
Isaiah 13:19-20
King James Version
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

The prophecy remains unfulfilled. While it had an application in that day, there is yet a future fulfillment. Just as the prophecy concerning the coming of Christ has a future fulfillment.

If you visit that area today, you will find that people still live in that area.

God bless.
Historically, it was fulfilled in 583 bc
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I heartily agree with everything you said, except the Noah flood. Nowhere did God say he destroyed the first order because of anger. He gave his reason as his grief.

Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

The events of Christ's return are likened to the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah in Matthew 24 and Luke 17. I would suggest that judgment implies anger. Consider:

Exo 32:12
Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent H5162 of this evil against thy people.




This society lived only under a consciousness of good and evil and had not experienced the attributes of God. They did not disobey the Law of God because they did not have the law from God. Rom 5 tells us this; "12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

This is easily illustrated by a comparison of these two men at different epochs in human history by the same God.

Again, I'll have to disagree, and think you present a great truth in the next section, and that's the truth I'll use as my argument, lol.

Among these people were those who knew God's will and passed that down from generation to generation, and by this they are accountable (as well as those who did not teach their children those truths). You say there was no "law of God" but I find that to be in error in the sense that "the Law of God" is the revealed will of God to any generation of any Age. True, they did not have the Covenant of God, but they had enough revelation to know the difference between "good and evil."

Paul makes an astounding statement here:

Romans 2:11-15
King James Version

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


Because God has revealed unto men His will by His Spirit, no man will escape judgment. That they did not have the Covenant of Law makes zero difference.


Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. 32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. 9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. 13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

This teaches us that men are responsible to God according to what he has revealed to them.

This is such an important truth that I think many fail to see. Also important, how he reveals His truth unto men. Whether Creation, His Word directly, His Word through His servants, or His Word spoken directly to the heart, men will be held responsible for what He has revealed to them. The good news is, they won't be held accountable for what has not been revealed, so in one sense those living in earlier ages were fortunate not to know too much. That is why Christ states ...

Matthew 10:15
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.



29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rom 4:22 And therefore it (his faith in what God said)) was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us (after the law as the operative principle of divine dealing) also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the judge of all the earth) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The point is the righteousness that God demands is given to those before the law, Abraham, during the Law, David, After the Law, us, who simply believes God. See the highlighted section above.


I have to disagree. The righteousness necessary for our relationship with God to be restored can only be attained to by faith in Christ. Justification in Old Testament eras does not equate to justification received through faith in Christ's death and resurrection. The revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel began at Pentecost, so until then, men cannot be held accountable for rejecting that revelation. As you said, that is what men will be held accountable for.


I am concerned that many of the Christian faith will not accept the "IF."

Are they then of the Christian Faith?

Enjoying the discussion, JD.

God bless.
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Historically, it was fulfilled in 583 bc

Historically, it was fulfilled in 583 bc

Sorry for the repeat.

I have no problem with a historical fulfillment. Numerous prophecies have more than one fulfillment, though. The coming of Messiah has been fulfilled. The coming of Messiah is still a future event.

The fact remains, though, that Babylon is still there, and still inhabited. Just because it doesn't go by the name of Babylon doesn't change the geography. Its destruction in a final fulfillment is yet future.

God bless.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
These are many of the day of the lord verses. There were many separate day of the Lord judgements in the Ot. The final one came upon 1st century Jerusalem as Jesus told them>Mt 24....it was future from those people, but within their lifetime;Mt24:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
You are wrong about this. The Day of the LORD is one of the 4 major prophetic themes of the scriptures. Being the day of the LORD it is to be considered as one thousand years long.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I always wonder at what men simply refuse to believe in the scriptures. In the Jewish economy the day always begins in the evening and darkness gives way to light. You can be sure that every place in scripture where the day of the LORD is mentioned is specifically the darkness portion of that 7th day of the week of one thousand year days. How do I know that? Because the scriptures leaves no doubt about it. Many more wonderful things take place in THAT DAY that we are told about but it is when the 12 hour night is as bright as the current day and the 12 hour day is seven time brighter than now. There is no darkness when Jesus is present.
 
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