Unapologetic Dispensational Truths - Is the KJV Required For Us to Believe It.

[JD731]

it does nt matter what I wish.

it matters what God said

that kingdom will be destroyed By Jesus when he returns..

it is the final gentile empire

I am sorry E.G. but I am not smart enough to keep up with this flow of ideas.

 

[JesusFan]

To avoid confusion, could you just confirm that you meant, "Typically KJVO blatther,"not "Typically NKJVO blatther?" I have never come across anybody who is New King James Version Only.

You are correct, good catch!

 

[Zaatar71]

"Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt:
8 and they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces [shall be as] flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts,
and in the day of his fierce anger." ( Isaiah 13:6-13 )


I'll have to politely disagree with you, my friend.
I see nowhere in history that this ( for example ) has been fulfilled, as yet.

Hello David,
539 BCE
Isaiah 13 prophesies the destruction of Babylon in the year 539 BCE, which is a significant event in biblical history. The chapter describes the gathering of God's army to execute judgment against Babylon due to its pride and wickedness, culminating in its downfall by the Medes and Persians. The prophecy is rooted in the historical context of Babylon's rise and fall, symbolizing human arrogance and rebellion against God.
Bible Hub
Why do you suggest this has not happened in History? Which part do you think has not happened?

 

[Dave G]

Why do you suggest this has not happened in History? Which part do you think has not happened?

Because Isaiah isn't talking about the destruction of Babylon, the city, there.
He's prophesying of the great tribulation, told to us in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 by the Lord Jesus, and revealed to John in detail, in Revelation.
Notice the language that I bolded in the text.

God will punish the world for its evil...not just a city.
The wicked for their iniquity, not just the inhabitants of one city.
The land will be laid desolate...
The earth will remove out of its place ( massive earthquakes ).
Every man's heart will "melt".

Have we seen any of that, yet?

 

[Zaatar71]

Because Isaiah isn't talking about the destruction of Babylon, the city, there.
He's prophesying of the great tribulation, told to us in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 by the Lord Jesus, and revealed to John in detail, in Revelation.
Notice the language that I bolded in the text.

God will punish the world for its evil...not just a city.
The wicked for their iniquity, not just the inhabitants of one city.
The land will be laid desolate...
The earth will remove out of its place ( massive earthquakes ).
Every man's heart will "melt".

Have we seen any of that, yet?

It clearly is speaking of Babylon,vs1, and 19.

The language used of the day of the Lord judgement, is used in several places, Isa.13, Babylon Isa.34Edom Ezk32 of Egypt, Joel2 of Jerusalem
Mt 24, Revelation6-19 of apostate Jerusalem in 70.AD.

 

[Dave G]

it clearly is speaking of Babylon,vs1, and 19.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.
We'll have to leave it at that, then.

May God bless you.

 

[Zaatar71]

I'm sorry, but I disagree.
We'll have to leave it at that, then.

May God bless you.

ok...

 

[Ben1445]

ok where is America, where do you get America out of a 10 nation empire which will be the new Rome?

I am in America and I am also in the kingdom that will never be destroyed. It is the kingdom that rises up in the time of the iron and clay.

this is speaking of the event jesus spoke of in Matt 24. the abomination of desolation. which will be the sign the great tribulation has started.

My point was just that the Jews would be most likely to accept the building of the temple as directed by someone who they believe is their messiah. I don’t see that the temple is required to exist before he appears in the picture, just that it is there when he enters the temple and declares himself god.

so in order for this to happen. at the least a holy of holies must be in place. and the jews would need to be doing sacrifices. because remember this prince causes sacrifices to cease..

Meaning that the temple could be built very quickly (because they have everything ready) but it would take someone with wide public acceptance to make it happen.
The first three and a half years is enough time to get everything started. It doesn’t have to all start on or have been started before day one of the tribulation.

 

[JD731]

Hello David,
539 BCE
Isaiah 13 prophesies the destruction of Babylon in the year 539 BCE, which is a significant event in biblical history. The chapter describes the gathering of God's army to execute judgment against Babylon due to its pride and wickedness, culminating in its downfall by the Medes and Persians. The prophecy is rooted in the historical context of Babylon's rise and fall, symbolizing human arrogance and rebellion against God.
Bible Hub
Why do you suggest this has not happened in History? Which part do you think has not happened?

The time frame for the fulfilling of the prophesy of Isa 13 and 14 that catalogs the burden of Babylon is clearly stated in the text. There can be no doubt about it. I will quote it for you.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

What is the day of the LORD according to the text?

Isa 13:13 (of all places) Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

To say we have seen the fierce anger of the LORD and the results is to dishonor the scriptures with it's faithful prophesy.


Sodom has not been inhabited since God's judgement and Babylon will not be inhabited by men throughout the millennium. This is not empty rhetoric

19 ¶ And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time [is] near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Consider this;

Ac 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

The appointed day is the prophetic "day of the LORD." It begins with the last 42 months of Jacob's trouble. The prophecy appears by this name in 17 books of the Bible and by 12 authors including both Peter and Paul. It is always future tense by all these authors and it is always a coming judgement in it's initial application. It is found in the scriptures 30 times in 29 verses. It is in one verse twice. Thirty is the number for maturity in scripture. It is never anything but vengeance, darkness, judgement as it applies to the nations but it is also the time when the church will be judged at the judgement seat of Christ in heaven for rewards or lack thereof.

Here is the final warning and the arrival of the Day of the LORD;

Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Darrell C]

That's actually what I said in my post.

no, You said we are born by dispensationalism

Nowhere in anything I said did I say this. This is why I asked you to respond to the post; you would be less likely to improperly quote me.

And I still suggest that you do this: respond to the argument presented.

Correct, the Gospel is dispensational.

The New Covenant is dispensational.

Eternal Redemption is dispensational.

I'm a little confused, here. You say you've been a "dispensationalist for fifty years," yet you do not understand what I am saying?

Of course, your mention of amillenialism makes me wonder if you are also amillennial. That would probably explain the problem. Cross-dressing interpretive systems has a habit of resulting in confusion.

This is true. We can be believers without knowing all kinds of things.

hence it is not dispensational Dispensation belief is a belief system,

It is very much a "dispensational belief." As mentioned before, the Gospel was unknown to all men until this particular dispensation began. We call that the Revelation of the Mystery of Christ.

Men looked forward to the coming of Messiah, but it was not until the Son of God manifested in flesh, died on the Cross, rose again, and returned to Heaven that God sent the Comforter to reveal this knowledge.

The Gospel of Christ is a Dispensation of God. It is His specific ministry in the hearts of men and women in this age to reveal Christ.

Perhaps it might help you to learn more about what Biblical Dispensational means.

It is not a biblical teaching per say

So let me get this straight: you've been a dispensationalist for fifty years, yet you do not believe it is biblical.

Perhaps it might help you to learn more about what Biblical Dispensational means.

I know what it means I have been a dispensationalist for 50 years.

Would you mind, without googling, telling what your understanding of Dispensationalism is?

Again, address my post. I'm not really interested in poofy rants.

I do not need to address the post. I am addressing the statement, the gospel is dispensationalism.

Here is what I said:

dispensationalism is not a gospel. it is a doctrinal viewpoint.

Correct, the Gospel is dispensational.

The New Covenant is dispensational.

Eternal Redemption is dispensational.

there is no argument for this.

I have presented one:

Actually, we are saved by Dispensational Theology. We call it the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which was foretold in all other dispensations but only revealed in this one.

Prior to the coming of the Comforter, soteriology was unclear. They understood there would be a resurrection of the dead, but they had no idea how that would take place. Especially when it came to how those who are dead would receive life through Jesus Christ.

A "dispensation" is "an administration of God." There are several Ages we can identify as specific to the Revelation men received in those times. To give an example, let me ask you this: do you think we should still be under the Covenant of Law as Christians?

If you say no, then you are dispensational, sorry. That's two distinct administrations of God that cannot and should not be intertwined. In the first Covenant, there were sacrifices that could not make the comer thereunto (the worshiper) complete in regard to sin; that's why the sacrifices continued daily. In the New Covenant, Christians do not offer up the lives of animals in their stead as was demanded of the first Covenant. The reason? Because Christ made us complete having only to offer Himself once. So, there's two dispensations that undeniably mark differing ministries of God in a soteriological context. There are more (and not always agreed upon, such as whether we could view Adam's day as a dispensation/administration era), but, these two should suffice.

If you say yes ...



God bless.

You might note that here, I make the argument that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is Dispensational Theology.

This response was, if I remember correctly, in response to the term "dispy" being used. The fact is, unless you believe that the Gospel is a dispensation of God, and that it revokes the previous dispensation, you might be inclined to fall into the error of works-based salvation that requires an admixture of dispensations.

I also presented this argument:

Sorry, no.

Colossians 1:23-27
King James Version

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


While we can say the Old Testament Saints were "saved" by grace through faith, we can also say that not a single one of them were eternally redeemed. Only in this dispensation of God is the revelation of the Gospel given unto men, that is why it is called the Mystery of Christ. Notice in v.27, "the riches of the glory of this mystery" is—the very indwelling of Christ in the believer. Never happened in any other Age, because Christ had not yet died in their stead.


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


A promise remains only a promise until it is fulfilled, and Christ did that through His death, resurrection, and return to Heaven.

So it is my own view that we must distinguish between salvation as seen in the Old Testament and the salvation available to men today. Still the same salvation, just at a differing stage according to the dispensation of God. Just as the redemption of our bodies is a different stage from being baptized into Christ under this dispensation.

So, if you care to, you could address these posts and quote what I have said.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I'm confused. Did you say that the gospel is dispensationalism or did Darrell C. (who I have on ignore)?

Hmm, still smarting from our discussions about amillenialism?

Just to clarify, the argument I have presented is that the Gospel is dispensational. While it is presented as early as Genesis 3, it is not revealed until Pentecost, when the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth is sent to reveal it.

In some ways, I would agree with the OP that the creation of the KJV is somewhat of a dispensation within a dispensation. When the Word of God became more available than it had been previously, there was a stirring much like there was at Pentecost. We wouldn't place those two events on the same scale, of course, but its significance can't be denied.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

To say we have seen the fierce anger of the LORD and the results is to dishonor the scriptures with it's faithful prophesy.

Prophecy can be seen to have multiple fulfillments. The best example of this is prophecy concerning the coming of Messiah. The coming of Messiah has been fulfilled, but not in full. An example would be found here:

Luke 4:17-20
King James Version

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


So, Scripture concerning His coming has been fulfilled, but not all.


Isaiah 61
King James Version

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.


So, prophecy surrounding His coming has two fulfillments. I would suggest that many times in history God has presented His fierce anger, beginning with the Flood.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

There is a thing called Covenant Theology though

And ...?

All who werte saved under the Old testament were actually saved by the same New Covenant that we are today as its always been the gospel of the cross and resurrection to save lost sinners

Sorry, no. All who were saved within previous dispensations had to await the coming of Christ and His atoning work.

What you are saying is that there are more ways to receive Eternal Redemption than through Christ.

To say Dispy Gospel is to say Calvinist Gospel, neither strictly true, just means those holding to those systems see the gospel along those systems of theology

Sorry, no.

Let me ask you a question: do you think Christians should adhere to the Covenant of Law?

If you don't, then guess what? You are dispensational.

Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this.

God bless.

 

[JesusFan]

And ...?



Sorry, no. All who were saved within previous dispensations had to await the coming of Christ and His atoning work.

What you are saying is that there are more ways to receive Eternal Redemption than through Christ.



Sorry, no.

Let me ask you a question: do you think Christians should adhere to the Covenant of Law?

If you don't, then guess what? You are dispensational.

Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this.

God bless.

No, was saying that regardless when saved, all were saved by the basis of the new Covenant between God and man established at Calvary

 

[Darrell C]

did they teach regeneration precedes salvation?

I am not sure of JM's belief. but I do not know a Baptist church that thinks this

You might look for one that does. Regeneration is salvation.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

No, was saying that regardless when saved, all were saved by the basis of the new Covenant between God and man established at Calvary

You say this like God simply brushed salvation over everyone. What I am trying to help you understand is that there is a difference between being "saved" in the Old Testament and receiving Eternal Redemption through the Work of Christ:

Galatians 4:4-6
King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Will you take Paul's word for it? That men were still in need of redemption? That men were in need of being eternally indwelt by Eternal God?

Were men and women adopted in previous dispensations? Did they receive the Spirit of Truth?

No, because the Revelation of the Gospel Mystery was not yet given unto men in those Ages.


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The Old Testament Saints were not eternally redeemed until Christ died in their stead. If they were, then I'd like to know what the other means of salvation was used. Scripture does not teach that Redemption was available throughout history but the opposite. As I mentioned before, the "stage" of their salvation can be compared with our "stage" of salvation, meaning it is not yet fulfilled as it will be. That they were "saved" by God's grace is true, but just as we have not yet been bodily redeemed, even so they had not been eternally redeemed.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I know the metaphorical thousand year day is the 7th day sabbath rest. 6 days have passed.

I'd agree with this, except I don't view the sixth millennium to have finished yet. I think it is soon, though. Don't know that our generation will live to see the Rapture, but I too believe it won't be long.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Nations that show up in the prophetic portions of the scriptures are those who interact with Israel over time. Many nations have persecuted Israel during her history and the tribulation time is called "the day of the LORD" and in several places called the day of vergence. God has not forgotten what they did to his people and he is a jealous God and will deal with them for their crimes.

Keep in mind that the Seventieth Week is a judgment against Israel. Through the Tribulation the Lord will be purging the nation while drawing from among them. Right now, Israel is a secular nation in large part, but I do believe they still fall under His protection.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

It clearly is speaking of Babylon,vs1, and 19.

The language used of the day of the Lord judgement, is used in several places, Isa.13, Babylon Isa.34Edom Ezk32 of Egypt, Joel2 of Jerusalem
Mt 24, Revelation6-19 of apostate Jerusalem in 70.AD.

Isaiah 13:19-20
King James Version
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

The prophecy remains unfulfilled. While it had an application in that day, there is yet a future fulfillment. Just as the prophecy concerning the coming of Christ has a future fulfillment.

If you visit that area today, you will find that people still live in that area.

God bless.

 

[JD731]

It is my view that those nation that come up out of the sea as a ten nation federation that produces the Antichrist are people groups that have been around the whole age. There is something particularly frightening about it according to the description by Daniel and when he saw the vision of it he was sick certain days.

Isaiah 13:1
The burden of Babylon

Isaiah 15:1
The burden of Moab. B

Isaiah 17:1
The burden of Damascus.

Isaiah 19:1
The burden of Egypt.

Isaiah 21:1
The burden of the desert of the sea.

Isaiah 21:11
The burden of Dumah.

Isaiah 21:13
The burden upon Arabia.

Isaiah 22:1
The burden of the valley of vision.

Isaiah 23:1
The burden of Tyre.

Isaiah 30:6
The burden of the beasts of the south:

Isaiah 30:27
Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:

A burden is a heavy weight and difficult to bear. This is in the context of the day of the Lord.

I suggest a word study of the Assyrian who prophetically and typically is the Antichrist, the oppressor of Israel. He appears in scriptures 13 times.