MMRRPP! WRONG!
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness. But He is patient with us, because He does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Unconditional Election
- Thread starter thatbrian
- Start date
MMRRPP! WRONG!
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness. But He is patient with us, because He does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
I believe I did; you just didn't like my answer.
the examples from Scripture I posted were clearly predestinated by God, but they still could've refused His call. However, God made His will known to them so plainly that only an idiot would've refused that call. YES, THEY STILL HAD TO ACCEPT GOD'S CALL!
the "all" in that context would be the ones God elected to come to faith in jesus!
Who is "us"?
Still does not address the OP, so I would challenge your reading comprehension, more than your theology, at this point.
Peter's intended readership. He did not know his letter would become Scripture to be read by all coming generations.
My reading comprehension is fine, likely better than yours.
My reply indeed addressed the OP. You simply didn't like my answer, as it didn't fit your doctrine.
Actually, ANYONE alive on earth is free to come to Jesus.
I have not provided a theory; I have presented observations. Your stance is that you are correct, and you want to change the mind of anyone who disagrees with you. That's been blatantly obvious since your first post on this board.
Of course; just not on this subject.
Where did you get "conditional election" from what I wrote? There is no conditional election in what I presented; the question is regarding elected to salvation, or elected because of salvation. The cause of salvation is the same.
Nope, I've honestly never heard that one.
Have you ever considered that the only reason one responds to an altar call is because God is drawing them?
Yes, but only the elect will choose to do that!
What part of man's being is not corrupted by the fall, that allows him to 'choose' to come to Christ?
His whole being. Thus he is allowed to to choose to come to Christ.
If you believe otherwise simply produce the verse where God says he made mankind incapable.
Now if your on the Romans 3 train, that is quoting psalms, And they are pointing out that matter of fact people AT THE TIME were rejecting God, and do not seek God.
But that has no bearing on whether THEY COULD.
In Genesis the fall of man, we get a whole list of consequences
Genesis 3
17Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
18“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
19By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
But God forgot to mention the most damning and worst consequence of all that mankind can do anything right.
No, Show us scripture or it is fake.
Are they? What do you mean by "free"? Can someone come to o Jesus who has never heard of Jesus?
Sinners are under the "Bondage of the flesh"
Felipe Rios
Member
All of man's being is corrupted. The difference is that God gives the ability to everyone to chose Him or reject Him. This happens at the point of salvation. I know that the Calvinists will reject this because that would destroy most of the TULIP.
Felipe Rios
Member
Yes. The Spirit can lead them to the word which then leads to Jesus.
Which point? Positional salvation? Progressive salvation? Permanent salvation?
I think you may have conflated regeneration with salvation. They are different things.
Reject what? Your conflation of salvation and regeneration? Yes, probably so. But nothing you have posted addresses TULIP in any way.
Mankind is still fallen (T).
There is still nothing good enough about us to warrant heaven on our own (U).
It is still true that only believers will have their sins wiped away (L).
God's Grace still accomplishes what He intends it to accomplish (I).
The redeemed are still secure in Christ (P).
I don't really see how you have "destroyed" anything (well, except your own credibility).
Show us with scripture they are different things.
John 1:12 says that those that receive Him will will be saved.Nothing there about regeneration as being different.
Well, for starters, that is not what John 1:12 says. It says "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
John 1:12 is about regeneration, not salvation. That is what "born of God" means. A second, spiritual, birth.
Salvation, on the other hand, is a three fold progression: Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification.
JUSTIFICATION: FREEDOM FROM SIN’S PENALTY
When we came to Christ, confessing our great need of him we were met with God’s unequivocal “yes.” Since Christ bore the penalty for our sins, we received freedom from that penalty for all sins past, present, and future. We were justified before God our judge because our penalty had been paid. Those who have been justified never need re-justifying. We can look back to the time of our justification and know that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1–2).
Our justification is behind us. It is a past occurrence. We were saved from sin’s penalty.
SANCTIFICATION: FREEDOM FROM SIN’S POWER
Now that the grace of God has been set upon us as a permanent seal (2 Cor. 1:20–22), we are being made new. We are being set free from the power of sin by the power of the Spirit. God’s grace is restoring to us a will that wants what He wants. Before we were justified, our broken wills were utterly subject to the power of sin. We chose sin at every turn. Even when we made choices that appeared good from an external standpoint, because we had no higher internal purpose than to glorify self these choices were ultimately sinful as well.
Now, the power of sin is broken. We have been given the guarantee of the Holy Spirit. Though we once chose only to sin, now we have the power (and the growing desire) to choose righteousness. We who were once slaves to sin’s power are now free to serve God. We don’t always use our freedom. We still sin, but over time we learn increasingly to choose holiness.
Our lives are devoted to “working out our salvation” (Phil. 2:12–13) as we learn to choose righteousness instead of sin, to walk in obedience to God’s commands.
Our sanctification is ongoing. It is a slow-moving growth in holiness. We are being saved from sin’s power.
GLORIFICATION: FREEDOM FROM SIN’S PRESENCE
We will fight to grow in holiness our entire earthly lives. But when we have run the race and fought the good fight, we will enter into the presence of the Lord forever. We will be glorified. In his presence, our rest will at last be complete, as sin and its devastation will cease to attack us.
There can be no evil in his presence. Though now we are surrounded on all sides by sinfulness, though now sin continues to cling to our hearts, on that day (not too distant for me) we will go to a place where sin is no more.
In our glorification we will at last be saved from the very presence of sin.
Our glorification is coming. It is the day we trade the persistent presence of sin for the perfect presence of the Lord. We will be saved from sin’s presence.
How Salvation Brings Freedom
You added verse 13 and claimed it is verse 12. Why? And yes that is what it says and it is what I said it says.
This presupposes that regeneration and salvation are different therefore it cannot prove it.
I know you are trying to make a comparison here but you have failed. You failed because you used presuppositions in the previous claim and then you work to do the same here. I understand what Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification are but stating them individually does not prove a separation from regeneration. Your attempt here has failed.