Unconditional Election

[Van]

1) Scripture says Abraham's faith was credited to his as righteousness. It does not say Abraham was made righteous through faith. The inability to read seems to be a key in becoming a Calvinist.

2) The OT saints were not justified through the works of the Law, so they were saved via the New Covenant. When was the New Covenant inaugurated, at Christ's death for it is in His blood. Thus the OT saints gained approval, not perfection or justification, through faith under the old Covenants, but they had to wait in Abraham's bosom, until Christ died to be made perfect.

3) Abraham was not justified and made perfect before Christ shed His blood.

4) When a person is spiritually placed in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and then arise in Christ a new creation, born anew. Thus both justification and regeneration occur in Christ and are spiritual actions of God.

5) Hebrews 11:13 says the OT saints died in faith but did not receive the promises. They were seeking God's kingdom but did not obtain it.
But once a person is washed by the blood of the Lamb, then the spirit is taken immediately to heaven in the presence of Jesus at the right hand of the Father. Recall John 3:13 says no one has ascended into heaven, thus the OT saints had to wait, because they were not justified, made perfect.

6) The New Covenant is one of the Everlasting Covenants, but other Everlasting Covenants are taught in the Old Testament. Next, I said the OT saints were indeed set apart by gaining approval through faith. When they died they were taken to Abraham's bosom. So they were sanctified, meaning set apart, but were not sanctified meaning made perfect. They were not justified before Christ died.

7) Once again Pentecost is dragged in by Biblicist to muddy the waters. Of course the OT teaches a person must be born anew, and that being born a descendent of Abraham does not get it done. The OT saints had to wait, in Abraham's bosom, before they were born anew in Christ, having been washed with His blood.

8) We are born anew, regenerated, made alive when we are spiritually placed in Christ by God, having credited our faith as righteousness. No one is made alive before they are placed in Christ. If they are not in Christ, they are spiritually dead. Now, does God fellowship with the spiritually dead? Yes. He died for them while they were yet sinners.
Jesus came to save the lost, not the self righteous. Calvinism stands on these kinds of mistaken beliefs, Jesus did not fellowship with spiritually dead people. Utter nonsense.

9) Again the repeat of the mistaken doctrine, Adam sinned, and as a consequence all people were made sinners, without having done anything go or bad. Recall Romans 9, if those two babies had sinned with Adam, then they would have done something bad. Your view is utter nonsense.

10) Returning to topic, the Bible teaches Conditional Election in many verses, including 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and Romans 11:5. The response has been to claim the OT saints were regenerated, being made alive before Christ shed His blood. However, this cannot be true because the Word, the pre-incarnate Christ came down from Heaven, and for the OT saints to have been in Him, they would have been in Heaven, and no one ascended to Heaven before Christ died. Thus the topic was derailed by utter nonsense. Go figure

 

[The Biblicist]

1) Scripture says Abraham's faith was credited to his as righteousness. It does not say Abraham was made righteous through faith. The inability to read seems to be a key in becoming a Calvinist.

You are failing to intepret that statement within its context. Paul starts this subject in Romans 3:24-26 which is the summary introduction while Romans 4:23-5:1 is the summary conclusion:

Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

a person's faith is counted for righteousness as defined by this context. In this context, the faith that Paul has in view in regard to justification has a proper object "faith IN his blood....beleveth IN Jesus." This proper object of faith refers to the "redemption....propitiation" provided "in" this Person which is the basis for justification. Now read Romans 3:24-26 again with this in view.

Hence, to count or credit one's faith for righteousness in regard to justification means the faith that has for its object the provisionary redemption....propitiation" provided in the Person of Jesus Christ. That is the only kind of faith that can justify "the ungodly" before God. Hence, as Paul says in Romans 3:25 it is "THROUGH" this kind of faith that the redemption found in Christ is received by "the ungodly".

Likewise the concluding summary of this treatise on justification:

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Again, the faith counted for justification is a faith that has the proper object as salvation is found in the object not in faith as faith without the proper object is worthless.

So it is "through" this kind of faith the righteousness found IN the Person and work of Christ is received or imputed to us. Hence faith saves, justifiies, redeems no one but it is the object of faith that does and faith serves only as as a channel THROUGH which the righteousness of God in Christ is imputed.

However, again you only respond by a list of assertions and denials rather than deal with the Biblical evidence. Any fool can respond this way but it takes a Bible student to confront the Biblical evidence and respond to textual arguments.

 

[Yeshua1]

Apparently it is rocket science to you as there are only two kinds of humans on planet earth since Genesis 3 - the unregenerate and regenerate or those who are in spiritual union with God in Christ and those who are spiritually dead or spiritually separated from God in Christ. Either you are "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" there is no middle ground - Rom. 8:8-9

God does not fellowship with the spiritually dead and all who are not quickened by the Spirit are spiritually dead no matter when they lived.

So you see those under the old covenant relationship with god saved by grace , thru faith, just are we are under the new covenant, and the big difference is that the Church was not yet established until the coming of jesus and the Holy Spirit after his acension? more of a chang from isreal being people of God to now Church is?

 

[Van]

No one ascended into heaven before the New Covenant was inaugurated. Therefore no one was "in Christ" before Christ died. So instead of being in Christ, those that gained approval through faith were taken to Abraham's bosom. Only those set apart in Christ are justified, washed by His blood, and arise in Christ as new creation, born anew.

Abraham's faith was reckoned or credited to His as righteousness. thus Abraham obtained approval through faith. And this message, obtaining approval through faith was also written for our sake, for we too will have our faith credited as righteousness.

Returning to topic, the Bible teaches Conditional Election in many verses, including 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and Romans 11:5. The response has been to claim the OT saints were regenerated, being made alive before Christ shed His blood. However, this cannot be true because the Word, the pre-incarnate Christ came down from Heaven, and for the OT saints to have been in Him, they would have been in Heaven, and no one ascended to Heaven before Christ died. Thus the topic was derailed by utter nonsense. Go figure

 

[Van]

Regeneration

Calvinists claim that unregenerate people are unable to seek God and trust in Christ because of their doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability. The reason people do seek God is because they have been “regenerated” or “quickened” or “made alive.”

Calvinism does accept that we are saved by grace through faith, but the faith is a gift God supernaturally enables before a person is saved.

The problem is this doctrine is clearly demonstrated false by scripture.

Was anyone regenerated before Jesus was? Nope, everyone follows Jesus in the regeneration. He is the way, the truth and the life, so no one is made alive except through Jesus. (Matthew 19:28)

But a desperate assertion could be only those who followed Him will sit on the 12 thrones, but other could have been regenerated before He was.

Next lets turn to how we are saved. When God puts us spiritually “in Christ” we undergo the circumcision of Christ where our body of flesh (sin) is removed. Being put spiritually in Christ means we are together with Christ, and therefore we are “made alive” (Ephesians 2:5). Put simply no one is made alive outside of Christ, because we are made alive together with Christ. We are spiritually baptized into His death and arise a new creation in Him. And then, once we are in Him, we are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit forever.

Bottom line, we are saved when we are put spiritually in Christ by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. None of the OT saints were regenerated, before Christ died, they had to wait, Hebrews 11:39-40.

Therefore the OT saints gained “approval” through faith without being “regenerated” or “quickened” or “made alive.” Regeneration before faith is therefore unbiblical.

 

[Yeshua1]

Regeneration

Calvinists claim that unregenerate people are unable to seek God and trust in Christ because of their doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability. The reason people do seek God is because they have been “regenerated” or “quickened” or “made alive.”

Calvinism does accept that we are saved by grace through faith, but the faith is a gift God supernaturally enables before a person is saved.

The problem is this doctrine is clearly demonstrated false by scripture.

Was anyone regenerated before Jesus was? Nope, everyone follows Jesus in the regeneration. He is the way, the truth and the life, so no one is made alive except through Jesus. (Matthew 19:28)

But a desperate assertion could be only those who followed Him will sit on the 12 thrones, but other could have been regenerated before He was.

Next lets turn to how we are saved. When God puts us spiritually “in Christ” we undergo the circumcision of Christ where our body of flesh (sin) is removed. Being put spiritually in Christ means we are together with Christ, and therefore we are “made alive” (Ephesians 2:5). Put simply no one is made alive outside of Christ, because we are made alive together with Christ. We are spiritually baptized into His death and arise a new creation in Him. And then, once we are in Him, we are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit forever.

Bottom line, we are saved when we are put spiritually in Christ by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. None of the OT saints were regenerated, before Christ died, they had to wait, Hebrews 11:39-40.

Therefore the OT saints gained “approval” through faith without being “regenerated” or “quickened” or “made alive.” Regeneration before faith is therefore unbiblical.

unregenerated lost sinners, spiritually dead to rrelationship to/with God

regenerated spiritually alive, relationship with God

So you would see saved people not being regenerated by God?

 

[Van]

unregenerated lost sinners, spiritually dead to rrelationship to/with God

regenerated spiritually alive, relationship with God

So you would see saved people not being regenerated by God?

Translation:

1) Scripture tells us to be in the world, but not of the world, so we are to cultivate fellowship with the world so we can share the gospel.

2) Scripture tells us we arise a new creation in Christ Jesus, thus born anew. The Greek word translated regeneration means to be originated again, hence born anew. We are born spiritually dead when we are born of water, but when we are placed in Christ, we are reborn, spiritually alive, together with Christ.

3) All saved people are spiritually in Christ, born anew, a new creation, spiritually alive together with Christ. Does Titus 3:5 ring a bell? We are saved by the washing of regeneration and the renewing by the Spirit.

4) We are saved by grace through faith. This statement clearly teaches we had faith before being saved. Faith provides the basis or access conduit to saving grace (Romans 5:2). Scripture does not teach we are saved by irresistible grace which compels us to willingly come to faith. Utter fiction.

5) So we return to the question, how did the OT saints obtain approval through faith, Hebrews 11:2, if they could not have followed Jesus in the regeneration? Answer, drum roll please, faith comes before regeneration. And not one Calvinist will agree with this inescapably truth.

6) So 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is true, God chose us for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Total Spiritual Inability has been demonstrated false once again, and not one Calvinist agrees once again.

 

[steaver]

Merry Christmas brothers and sisters in Christ!

We are nearing 30 page limit on this topic and I believe it has been a good back and forth argument with each side presenting scriptural evidence to support their position. Of course it is in the interpretation of those scriptures where in lies the disagreements.

I have observed this over the past 15 years of my journey in study and listening to preachers from both a Calvinistic belief and a Armenian belief; they BOTH present the gospel exactly the same! They both give an INVITATION to believe!

Now why is that? Why don't I hear TULIP preachers telling the congreagtion from the pulpit what they adamantly believe? You know what I hear? I hear the same sermons as I hear from Armenian leaning preachers. They preach to the congregation that they better not be just playing church! They preach as though the people have a choice to make even though they believe that they have no choice at all.

 

[Winman]

Merry Christmas brothers and sisters in Christ!

We are nearing 30 page limit on this topic and I believe it has been a good back and forth argument with each side presenting scriptural evidence to support their position. Of course it is in the interpretation of those scriptures where in lies the disagreements.

I have observed this over the past 15 years of my journey in study and listening to preachers from both a Calvinistic belief and a Armenian belief; they BOTH present the gospel exactly the same! They both give an INVITATION to believe!

Now why is that? Why don't I hear TULIP preachers telling the congreagtion from the pulpit what they adamantly believe? You know what I hear? I hear the same sermons as I hear from Armenian leaning preachers. They preach to the congregation that they better not be just playing church! They preach as though the people have a choice to make even though they believe that they have no choice at all.

They will disagree with your last statement. They will say the unregenerate is free to make any choice he wants, but he will always choose against God because his will is enslaved to sin.

Kinda like when Henry Ford said you could have the Model-T in any color you wanted as long as it was black. :laugh:

They will likewise say that the moment a person is regenerated that they freely choose God.

 

[steaver]

They will disagree with your last statement. They will say the unregenerate is free to make any choice he wants, but he will always choose against God because his will is enslaved to sin.

Kinda like when Henry Ford said you could have the Model-T in any color you wanted as long as it was black. :laugh:

They will likewise say that the moment a person is regenerated that they freely choose God.

Yeah I know, aren't they the oddest statements? They are oxymorons.

You will not hear a TULIP preacher ever say from the pulpit, "I have good news! God is going to save some of you here today and there is nothing you can do about it, and, God is not going to save some of you here today and there is nothing you can do about that either. You all have a nice day now!"

It's what they believe, but they would not dare preach it.

 

[Winman]

Yeah I know, aren't they the oddest statements? They are oxymorons.

You will not hear a TULIP preacher ever say from the pulpit, "I have good news! God is going to save some of you here today and there is nothing you can do about it, and, God is not going to save some of you here today and there is nothing you can do about that either. You all have a nice day now!"

It's what they believe, but they would not dare preach it.

Well, one reason I am so sarcastic and mock Reformed/Calvinists is because it is the only thing that can make them see how illogical their views really are. Plus, if they are going to stubbornly hold to error, they deserve to be mocked the way Elijah mocked the false prophets.

1 Kings 18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

I have to laugh when I read this story, I can just picture these false prophets jumping up and down. :laugh:

It may sound mean, but these guys are not the sharpest crayons in the pack.

Deep down, they KNOW there is something seriously wrong with their doctrine, this is why they cannot be forthright. Yet, they continue in error anyway. That is the part that is difficult to understand.

 

[The Biblicist]

No one ascended into heaven before the New Covenant was inaugurated. Therefore no one was "in Christ" before Christ died.

Yeah, please don't tell Elijah that because he things he ascended into heaven in a chariot fire instead of going downward into your protestant purgatory:


2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


Yeah, please don't tell David that because he believed that upon his death he would go to heaven instead of downward into your protestant purgatory:

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

The continuity of God with him is here on earth when he guides him with his counsel and "AFTERWARD" when he is received "TO GLORY....IN HEAVEN"

Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

 

[OldRegular]

Merry Christmas brothers and sisters in Christ!

We are nearing 30 page limit on this topic and I believe it has been a good back and forth argument with each side presenting scriptural evidence to support their position. Of course it is in the interpretation of those scriptures where in lies the disagreements.

I have observed this over the past 15 years of my journey in study and listening to preachers from both a Calvinistic belief and a Armenian belief; they BOTH present the gospel exactly the same! They both give an INVITATION to believe!

Now why is that? Why don't I hear TULIP preachers telling the congreagtion from the pulpit what they adamantly believe? You know what I hear? I hear the same sermons as I hear from Armenian leaning preachers. They preach to the congregation that they better not be just playing church! They preach as though the people have a choice to make even though they believe that they have no choice at all.

Perhaps your eyesight is sufficiently good to see the word "ELECT" or "666" on peoples forehead but I expect that most preachers don't have that ability. Men are called to preach the Gospel, not decide those things that are the purview of God. If people like you and Winman could understand that perhaps the tone of your posts would be more Christlike!

 

[steaver]

Perhaps your eyesight is sufficiently good to see the word "ELECT" or "666" on peoples forehead but I expect that most preachers don't have that ability. Men are called to preach the Gospel, not decide those things that are the purview of God. If people like you and Winman could understand that perhaps the tone of your posts would be more Christlike!

Yes, preach the gospel! Now, do you not agree that TULIP is the gospel?? Then why don't TULIP preachers preach it from the pulpit??

"tone of my post, Christlike" ?? If you could kindly quote a post of mine that wasn't Christlike I will review it and make the necessary appologies.

 

[DHK]

Perhaps your eyesight is sufficiently good to see the word "ELECT" or "666" on peoples forehead but I expect that most preachers don't have that ability. Men are called to preach the Gospel, not decide those things that are the purview of God. If people like you and Winman could understand that perhaps the tone of your posts would be more Christlike!

If I am preaching salvation or to the lost why would I use "elect"? Why would I even bring the subject up? The lost are the lost and the saved are the saved. The lost, by the power of the preaching of the gospel need to be saved (not elected). Our obligation is to preach the gospel to every creature whether or not we believe them to be elect. Only God knows who the elect are. The Lord knows them that are his; not us. Preach the Word and be faithful to it.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

 

[OldRegular]

If I am preaching salvation or to the lost why would I use "elect"? Why would I even bring the subject up? The lost are the lost and the saved are the saved. The lost, by the power of the preaching of the gospel need to be saved (not elected). Our obligation is to preach the gospel to every creature whether or not we believe them to be elect. Only God knows who the elect are. The Lord knows them that are his; not us. Preach the Word and be faithful to it.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

I believe that is consistent with the point I was trying to make to steamer!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeah I know, aren't they the oddest statements? They are oxymorons.

You will not hear a TULIP preacher ever say from the pulpit, "I have good news! God is going to save some of you here today and there is nothing you can do about it, and, God is not going to save some of you here today and there is nothing you can do about that either. You all have a nice day now!"

It's what they believe, but they would not dare preach it.

Actually, the good news that calvinist are able to proclaim is that some listening to the message WILL respond and receive Christ by faith, as he had a definite/secured salvation done for their behalf!

Non Calvinist will have the uncertainity of know IF ANY will respond to the preaching, for jesus death was not a definite One, but one that potentail might save whosoever will come!

 

[OldRegular]

Actually, the good news that calvinist are able to proclaim is that some listening to the message WILL respond and receive Christ by faith, as he had a definite/secured salvation done for their behalf!

Non Calvinist will have the uncertainity of know IF ANY will respond to the preaching, for jesus death was not a definite One, but one that potentail might save whosoever will come!

An excellant observation!

 

[steaver]

Actually, the good news that calvinist are able to proclaim is that some listening to the message WILL respond and receive Christ by faith, as he had a definite/secured salvation done for their behalf!

Non Calvinist will have the uncertainity of know IF ANY will respond to the preaching, for jesus death was not a definite One, but one that potentail might save whosoever will come!

Ah....surely you have read in the scriptures that there is foretold of an Elect whom shall come to Christ and be saved????

You are missing the debate here. It is not whether or not there is an Elect, but rather is the Elect according to the foreknowledge of God or is the Elect according to the power of God against the human will?

Hardly an excellent observation OR. :love2:

 

[Van]

Unbelievable Nonsense

Yeah, please don't tell Elijah that because he things he ascended into heaven in a chariot fire instead of going downward into your protestant purgatory:

Yet another completely false misrepresentation of scripture. There is no purgatory.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

The bible speaks of three heavens, first the heavens where the birds fly and the clouds hang, i.e. the atmosphere. Next the Bible speaks of the second heaven, where the Sun, Moon and stars hang out, i.e. the physical Universe outside our atmosphere. And third, the Bible speaks of the third heaven, where God is. This third heaven is also called Paradise. The Elijah went up to the clouds, i.e. the first heaven, not where no one had ascended, the third heaven.

Yeah, please don't tell David that because he believed that upon his death he would go to heaven instead of downward into your protestant purgatory:

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

Actually the text reads receive me with honor. Here is the NET footnote:

Heb “and afterward [to] glory you will take me.” Some interpreters view this as the psalmist’s confidence in an afterlife in God’s presence and understand כָּבוֹד (cavod) as a metonymic reference to God’s presence in heaven. But this seems unlikely in the present context. The psalmist anticipates a time of vindication, when the wicked are destroyed and he is honored by God for his godly life style. The verb לָקַח (laqakh, “take”) here carries the nuance “lead, guide, conduct,” as in Num 23:14, 27-28; Josh 24:3 and Prov 24:11.

The continuity of God with him is here on earth when he guides him with his counsel and "AFTERWARD" when he is received "TO GLORY....IN HEAVEN"

Talk about fiction, verse 25 says God is in heaven, and does not equate "to glory" with "to heaven."

Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

When we die, our spirits are taken to Hades or Heaven. But under the Old Covenant, spirits that had obtained approval through faith were taken to Abraham's bosom.