Unconditional Election

[Van]

Besides your conjectures and inferences and imagination for that distinction what is the explicit Biblical evidence there are two different kinds of elections both of which are found in context of personal and individual salvation as is the case with Ephesians 1:4-11; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13-14???? Proof please?

Why refer to my views as conjectures, why not refer to your views as unbiblical nonsense?

Let me go over the evidence yet again. Calvinism claims we were chosen individually before creation based on being chosen in Him before creation, Ephesians 1:4. However, we were chosen for salvation from or after or since creation according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13. To resolve this impossibility, Calvinism says "from the beginning refers to before creation. However, "apo" means out of and therefore cannot refer to before the beginning. So, next they claim that the beginning refers to before creation. Never mind Genesis 1:1 which say in the beginning God created heaven and earth. Calvinism depends on shredding the meaning of words to pour mistaken views into scripture.

First, notice the differences. In one text it simply says that before the foundation of the world this election took place (Eph. 1:4). However, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says nothing about any "foundation" or any "world" but says merely "from the beginning." The beginning of what? FROM THE BEGINNING OF GOD'S ELECTIVE CHOICE when the Father, Son and Holy Spirit made an "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20).

Several (3) verses refer to before the foundation of the world, and these refer to a different time than those that refer to from the foundation of the world. The issue that is inescapable with 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is that we are chosen through faith in the truth. We did not exist before the foundation of the world, so our individual election occurred from or after or since the beginning.

However, one thing is for certain, this elective choice preceded the birth of any of God's elect from Genesis to revelation and thus is not based upon anything after the beginning found in their existence.

Not true. God could elect a target group with His redemption plan before creation, yet place individuals in that group after creation.

Election is always in regard to salvation - always! It is never found in scripture unto damnation.

Yet another effort mislead, I did not claim election to damnation. But I did claim God's choice of individuals sometimes is not for salvation but for another purpose, i.e. Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy.

The ordinary use of the Greek preposition "eis" when its object is found in the accusative case (2 Thes. 2:13) is one of terminating action.

EIS has several uses, including describing on what basis an action was taken.

Wrong! "in Christ" identifies the SPHERE of election not "how" they were elected. The "how" is repeatedly defined by the prepositional phrases "according to"

Reading lesson: "through sanctification by the Spirit" refers to the Holy Spirit placing us spiritually in Christ. When God sets us apart in Christ, that is our individual election for salvation, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

What you are saying is that election has its basis in foreseen faith when you say "election is God crediting our faith as righteousness." Also, you are confusing justification with election. Justification "is God crediting our faith as righteousness (Rom. 4:3,6).

You are repeating the error I corrected in a prior post. Our individual election for salvation is not based on foreseen faith. Shall I repeat this sentence 10 times? It is based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, so our individual election occurs during our lifetime, not before creation.

Election does not have its basis in "our faith" but is the cause of our faith "through sanctification of the 4-65Spirit AND belief of the truth." Faith or coming to Christ is the consequence not the cause of being given to Christ by the Father in election (Jn. 6:37,39, 44-45; 65).

Not true. John 6:37 says nothing about coming to faith. Do not rewrite verse after verse.

You are reversing cause and effects as election is the basis that we "might be sanctified" not because we are sanctified and holy before him (Eph. 1:4b).

Yet another reading lesson: Our individual election for salvation is not because we are sanctified, we are sanctified, i.e. set apart in Christ, because God chooses to put us in Christ, thus our individual election for salvation. After we are in Christ, we are made holy through the blood of Christ, the circumcision of Christ.

You are teaching that election is based upon foreseen good when that is precisely what Paul denies concerning the purpose of God according to election (Rom. 9:11).

Not true. We are not chosen because of foreseen faith, or good character or any other foreseen attribute. When God credits our faith as righteousness, God is the one who does it, and is also the one who puts us in Christ. So God does it all. Our faith was worthless, a filthy rag, until God in His great mercy, credited it as righteousness. Therefore salvation does not depend on the one who wills, i.e. puts his complete faith in Christ, or runs, i.e. does works worthy of repentance, but rather on God alone.

There is no corporate election any more than there is any corporate damnation.

There are lots of scholars who disagree, and believe there are corporate elections in scripture. You are also using a logical fallacy, just because "a" is false, that does not prove "b" is false.

The choice unto salvation was personal and individual and based upon God's purpose of Grace. One must be "created in Christ" personally and individually in addition to be chosen "in him" - Eph. 1:4; 2:10.

Yes, this is what I have been saying!!!! God chose us for salvation individually and personally based on crediting our faith as righteousness, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. This individual election put us into the corporate group chosen in Him, Ephesians 1:4.

Ephesians 1:13-14 proves that election in Christ is personal and individual. The Father chose (Eph. 1:4-6); the Son redeemed (Eph. 1:7-8) and the Holy Spirit applied that redemption personally and individually.

You got that right.

Reading lesson, election in all contexts mentioned is directly associated with personal and individual salvation as its consequence.

Many scholars agree with me on this point, there are corporate elections in scripture. Denial does not alter the facts.

Look at 1 Thes. 1:4-5. Verse 4 tells individuals they can know if they are one of God's elect. Verse 5 tells individuals how they can know they are God's elect. 2 Thes. 2:13-14 is election in direct relationship to personal and individual sanctification by the Spirit AND belief of the truth. Ephesians 1:4 is election that obtains sanctification (holy) and ultimate glorification (blameless) before him. You cannot have a corporate election without corporate salvation as election is indisputably presented as the cause of salvation in each context.

Why are you making the case for individual election, do you not comprehend I advocate individual election for salvation???? My view is a corporate election followed by an individual election. I you cannot grasp that rather simple concept, there is nothing more I can say.

1. "that ye might be" - holy and blameless - Eph. 1:4
2. "knowing....your election of God. FOR... - 1 Thes. 1:4-5
3. "to (Gr. eis) salvation through.... 2 Thes. 2:13

Yes the corporate election of Ephesians 1:4 refers to a future action, being made holy and blameless through the blood of Christ. This is God's redemption plan formulated before the foundation of the world. After we are individually chosen during our lifetime, then we know our election. And yes we are individually chosen for salvation through being set apart in Christ on the basis of God crediting our faith in the truth as righteousness.

Deal with the language instead of philosophizing and paraphrasing your own ideology! This plan did not merely include salvation but Paul says "ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER" and they work together because God is working them "ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE" - v. 28

Now you drag exhaustive determinism into the discussion. Calvinism is defended by skipping from point to point, bring us endless digressions. The topic is conditional election.

The identify of the repeated "those" in verse 29-30 are "the elect" in verse 32. This election is eternal, individual and personal and that is indisputably proven by the context. This is the mechanics of election to salvation.

Yet another reading lesson, the "those" in verse 28 refers to those who love God. They have been, past tense, called which means God transferred they out of the realm of darkness in to His marvelous light, i.e. they were placed spiritually in Christ. And these placed in Christ, redeemed by the Lamb of God, were foreknown before the foundation of the world, because that is when God formulated His redemption plan to redeem believers.

Response continues in next post:

 

[Van]

Enough philosophical and rationalization! Stick to the scriptures. The whole context from John 6:29 to John 6:70 is about the nature of faith and the metaphors for believing in Christ. Coming, eating, drinking are all metaphors used for believing in Christ. Just read the context and that should be obvious if you read it without bias.

Not true. John 6:29 is yet another verse Calvinism misrepresents. The idea is that God requires this work, that we believe in Him.

Nothing is said here in this text about the work of the Holy Spirit but rather the work of the Father. They come to Christ because they are given to Christ by the father (v. 37) they are not given to Christ because they come but that is exactly what you are erroneously teaching here.

Yes, we are given individually to Christ by the Father, and this occurs when the Holy Spirit places us spiritually in Christ. The Holy Spirit accomplishes what the Father decides.

Talk about a misunderstanding! Their names are written in the lamb's book of life when the everlasting covenant of redemption (Heb. 13:20; Eph. 1:4-12) occurred between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Hence, their names were written "before the foundation of the world" and "from the beginning" of election.

Why do you think you can rewrite scripture. Names were written "FROM" the foundation of the world, not BEFORE the foundation of the world. You must stick with scripture and stop rewriting it to conform to Calvinism.

No such thing in scripture! You are confusing Justification with election. Justification is God accrediting righteousness on the basis of faith while election is giving some to the Son in order that they will come to Christ in faith (Jn. 6:36 with verse 37).

You are completely off target. We are chosen, through faith in the truth. Deal with it.

Another common ignorance of Scripture. So Jesus was just flapping his lips to Nicodemus BEFORE the cross - Jn. 3:3-5 and then rebuking him for not understanding this basic elementary truth of salvation (v. 9)???

You are the one who asserted Jesus was flapping His lips, not me. Jesus said a person must be born anew to enter heaven, and that was true, for no one had entered heaven, John 3:13.
The promise had been made, but the OT saints had not yet received the promise.

The new birth in the Old Testament is called circumcison of the heart. You just as well deny saints prior to the cross could be justified as that is based upon the blood of Christ as much as regeneration (Rom. 4:1-23; Acts 10:43). You simply don't understand that God applied the New Covenant salvation based upon faith in THE PROMISE (Rom. 3:25).

No one was reborn in Christ before Christ died on the cross. This is pretty basic stuff. Please read Hebrews 11:13, then Hebrews 11:39-40. Calvinism is shown to be mistaken on this point too.

Now getting back to the topic, conditional election, it has been shown that God's grace is given to the humble and not the proud, therefore God gives grace conditionally. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses us for salvation based on crediting our faith in the truth.

Ephesians 1:4 has been shown to not be an individual election because our individual election is conditioned on faith in the truth. God chooses those rich in faith, those that love God and on and on.

 

[OldRegular]

Not true. John 6:29 is yet another verse Calvinism misrepresents. The idea is that God requires this work, that we believe in Him.

Are you saying that "faith" is a "work"?

 

[Van]

Hi OR, I know how Calvinism reads the verse, and I know how non-Cal's read the verse. I expect you do to, and therefore your question is simply an effort to muddy the water. Faith is not works, plural, and works plural refers to earning salvation. Calvinism tries to claim if we come to faith, it is a works based salvation. Pure malarkey.

Does anyone see the avalanche of off topic assertions being thrown up to derail any sort of actual discussion of conditional election. How many verses have been offered that say our individual election for salvation is unconditional? None. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches we are chosen through faith in the truth.

 

[steaver]

Yeah! Yeah! It is all God's fault. Mankind is as pure as the driven snow and some will even consent to let God save them! Very gracious of man don't you think.

It seems Calvinist have no probablem at all with God electing some to salvation unconditionally, but when it comes to damnation, it's all according to the sins of the creature.

Calvinist love to quote Romans 9:11, " (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated".

They totally ignore the fact that God cursed Esau (if you stick to the model of TULIP) by unconditional election. They totally ignore the fact that God set Adam up to fail so that Jesus Christ would be glorified. They love to tout Unconditional Election for the grace of God, but turn a blind eye to the curse of God by that same Unconditional Election.

You'll hear them tout the talking points over and over..."Election is to salvation, not to damnation". This is bunk! If you want UE then UD comes along right with it. You must accept (well, you won't) the obvious conclusion that must come from Calvin's view of Ro9:11.

 

[steaver]

I was a devout arminian for 17 years. I was blind but now I see.

I was never an arminian, and never a calvinist either..........but I was once blind, and now I see!!! Praise Jesus!!!

 

[OldRegular]

Hi OR, I know how Calvinism reads the verse, and I know how non-Cal's read the verse. I expect you do to, and therefore your question is simply an effort to muddy the water. Faith is not works, plural, and works plural refers to earning salvation. Calvinism tries to claim if we come to faith, it is a works based salvation. Pure malarkey.

Does anyone see the avalanche of off topic assertions being thrown up to derail any sort of actual discussion of conditional election. How many verses have been offered that say our individual election for salvation is unconditional? None. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches we are chosen through faith in the truth.

Originally Posted by Van
Not true. John 6:29 is yet another verse Calvinism misrepresents. The idea is that God requires this work, that we believe in Him.

I have no intention of muddying the water. I was just curious about your wording in the referenced post above. It appears that you are saying "God requires this work, that we believe in Him."

The doctrine of Unconditional Election is quite clear. If Election were anything other than Unconditional would Salvation be by Grace alone? Perhaps that prompted my response to your post above which seems to imply "works salvation".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why is there always such a gravitational pull back to Catholicism? I for one have been there & I (ain't) going back! I can hear my Welsh ancestors cheering....LOL

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It seems Calvinist have no probablem at all with God electing some to salvation unconditionally, but when it comes to damnation, it's all according to the sins of the creature.

Calvinist love to quote Romans 9:11, " (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated".

They totally ignore the fact that God cursed Esau (if you stick to the model of TULIP) by unconditional election. They totally ignore the fact that God set Adam up to fail so that Jesus Christ would be glorified. They love to tout Unconditional Election for the grace of God, but turn a blind eye to the curse of God by that same Unconditional Election.

You'll hear them tout the talking points over and over..."Election is to salvation, not to damnation". This is bunk! If you want UE then UD comes along right with it. You must accept (well, you won't) the obvious conclusion that must come from Calvin's view of Ro9:11.

That would largely depend on the (I will use your term Calvinist though I dont agree with it) you are refer to. You probably have not read throughly through the works of Martyn Lloyd Jones, George Whitefield, Abraham Kuyper, John Preston, John Piper, Sinclair Ferguson or Samuel Rutherford

 

[Van]

Pitchback

I have no intention of muddying the water. I was just curious about your wording in the referenced post above. It appears that you are saying "God requires this work, that we believe in Him."

The doctrine of Unconditional Election is quite clear. If Election were anything other than Unconditional would Salvation be by Grace alone? Perhaps that prompted my response to your post above which seems to imply "works salvation".

The topic of Conditional election was evaded yet again by another Calvinist. The fiction that a salvation by grace through faith is a works based salvation is beyond rationality.

Returning to topic, what verse says God's individual election for salvation is not based on God crediting our faith in the truth as righteousness. Answer none, zip, nada.

Now on the other side of the ledger we have 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 6:29 and Romans 11:5. Calvinism must rewrite scripture after scripture, revising it to say the opposite of what it says. Calvinism is a mistaken doctrine based on shoddy bible study.

Recall the assertion that Abraham was made righteous before Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world? But when the verse was read, it said Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Calvinism's assertion after assertion have been shown to be obviously mistaken. More than a dozen in this thread alone.

Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life, That is salvation by grace through faith. This truth is presented everywhere in scripture but Calvinism denies it. LOL

 

[The Biblicist]

Why refer to my views as conjectures, why not refer to your views as unbiblical nonsense?

Because your responses are irrational, without scripture, simply unsubstantiated conjectures.

For example,

1. You IMAGINE that election in Christ in the context of personal salvation in Eph. 1:4 is a different kind of election in the context of personal salvation in 2 Thes. 2:13 - pure imagination without one scintilla of contextual evidence for that conjecture while the whole context repudiates your conjecture.

2. "before the foundation of the world" and "from the beginning" both equally predate the personal existence of the readers. In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "from the beginning" refers to the point of CHOICE by the Father - "God hath from the beginning chosen you". From the beginning of what? From the beginning of God's determination concerning you for salvation. You have no contextual based evidence to disprove this - NOTHING - NADA! Just your fertile imagination!

3. John 6:29 "THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD that ye believe" - faith is not a work of man but a gift to man (Eph. 2:8) as Jesus is both the author and finisher of faith (Heb. 12:2). Faith is given by the father (Jn. 6:44-45 as interpreted by Jesus in John 6:64-65 - read it "except IT BE GIVEN UNTO YOU by the Father" - v. 65! What is given - the ability to believe as this is explanatory for those Jews whom Jesus knew from the beginning did not believe - v. 64 - read it!

You live in your own fantasy world of make believe teaching and I don't think the facts of scripture are going to change your fertile imaginative interpretations.

 

[The Biblicist]

Because your responses are irrational, without scripture, simply unsubstantiated conjectures.

For example,

1. You IMAGINE that election in Christ in the context of personal salvation in Eph. 1:4 is a different kind of election in the context of personal salvation in 2 Thes. 2:13 - pure imagination without one scintilla of contextual evidence for that conjecture while the whole context repudiates your conjecture.

2. "before the foundation of the world" and "from the beginning" both equally predate the personal existence of the readers. In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "from the beginning" refers to the point of CHOICE by the Father - "God hath from the beginning chosen you". From the beginning of what? From the beginning of God's determination concerning you for salvation. You have no contextual based evidence to disprove this - NOTHING - NADA! Just your fertile imagination!

3. John 6:29 "THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD that ye believe" - faith is not a work of man but a gift to man (Eph. 2:8) as Jesus is both the author and finisher of faith (Heb. 12:2). Faith is given by the father (Jn. 6:44-45 as interpreted by Jesus in John 6:64-65 - read it "except IT BE GIVEN UNTO YOU by the Father" - v. 65! What is given - the ability to believe as this is explanatory for those who Jews knew from the beginning did not believe - v. 64 - read it!

You live in your own fantasy world of make believe teaching and I don't think the facts of scripture is going to change your fertile imaginative interpretations.

Jn. 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jesus knew that some of his PROFESSED DISCIPLES, who had confessed faith in him at baptism as John the Baptist preached Christ - Jn. 3:36/Acts 19:5 when he baptized them or when some had been baptized by Christ's disciples (Jn. 4:1-2) were really UNBELIEVERS in heart.

Note the words "THEREFORE SAID I UNTO YOU" has direct reference to verses 44-45 and is explanatory of the term "draw" in verse 44. Here "draw" is synomous with "except it were given unto you" and therefore when the Father draws a person something it given unto them! What? Answer, what they did not have in verse 64 - faith! God works in them faith (v. 45) and every man that God works faith in does come to Christ in faith (v. 45)

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

The "him" that is drawn is the "him" that is raised to eternal life - v. 44
The "all" who are taught is "EVERY MAN" who "cometh unto me"- v. 45

All those in John 6:64 were never drawn by the Father, never taught by the Father, therefore never "given" faith to come to Christ by the Father - v. 65

ALL the Father gives equal all who are drawn by the Father because ALL the Father gives do COME TO THE SON in faith - Jn. 6:37-39.

ALL the Father gives not only come in faith to Christ but are those out of "all flesh" which are given eternal life:

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

When did the Father give these to the Son? BEFORE THE WORLD THEY WERE PLACED IN HIM BY ETERNAL PURPOSE - Eph. 1:4

FROM THE BEGINNING - the point they were placed in him - they were chosen TO SALVATION - because there is no salvation OUTSIDE of him - Acts 4:12/Jn. 14:6/Rom. 8:8-9.

 

[The Biblicist]

Jn. 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jesus knew that some of his PROFESSED DISCIPLES, who had confessed faith in him at baptism as John the Baptist preached Christ - Jn. 3:36/Acts 19:5 when he baptized them or when some had been baptized by Christ's disciples (Jn. 4:1-2) were really UNBELIEVERS in heart.

Note the words "THEREFORE SAID I UNTO YOU" has direct reference to verses 44-45 and is explanatory of the term "draw" in verse 44. Here "draw" is synomous with "except it were given unto you" and therefore when the Father draws a person something it given unto them! What? Answer, what they did not have in verse 64 - faith! God works in them faith (v. 45) and every man that God works faith in does come to Christ in faith (v. 45)

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

The "him" that is drawn is the "him" that is raised to eternal life - v. 44
The "all" who are taught is "EVERY MAN" who "cometh unto me"- v. 45
All those in John 6:64 were never drawn by the Father, never taught by the Father, therefore never "given" faith to come to Christ by the Father - v. 65

ALL the Father gives equal all who are drawn by the Father because ALL the Father gives do COME TO THE SON in faith - Jn. 6:37-39.

ALL the Father gives not only come in faith to Christ but are those out of "all flesh" which are given eternal life:

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

When did the Father give these to the Son? BEFORE THE WORLD THEY WERE PLACED IN HIM BY ETERNAL PURPOSE - Eph. 1:4

FROM THE BEGINNING - the point they were placed in him - they were chosen TO SALVATION - because there is no salvation OUTSIDE of him - Acts 4:12/Jn. 14:6/Rom. 8:8-9.

Another fertile imaginative doctrine of yours is that salvation prior to the cross is different than after the cross. There is no salvation OUTSIDE OF CHRIST anywhere at anytime on planet earth for anyone.

1. You are either IN HIM or OUTSIDE OF HIM - Eph. 1:4

2. You are either IN THE FLESH or IN THE SPIRIT - Rom. 8:8-9

3. You are either LOST or SAVED - Mt. 1:21 - pre-cross statement

4. You are either a child of God or a child of Satan - Jn. 8:45/Eph. 2:1-3

5. You are either spiritually dead or quickened - Gen. 2:16; Eph. 2:1

John 14:6 is pre-cross and yet NO MAN cometh to the Father but by Christ.

Acts 10:43 is a post-cross statement about pre-cross saints and the manner of their salvation prior to the cross as so is Hebrews 4:2.

Justification by faith existed pre-cross - Rom. 4:1-23/Rom. 3:25 and there is no more pre-cross basis for regeneration than there is for justification and yet both are factual pre-cross experiences.

Hebrews 11:39-40 is misinterpreted by you and a failure to properly read the text:

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The promise they did not receive had to do with something they cannot receive "without us"! Take this in and think on it a second.

That promise is identified in verse 40 "made perfect" or glorification by resurrection. Think! When will they be "made perfect" WITH US??

This cannot refer to regeneration and its fruit as the whole chapter is about the fruit of regeneration - THE WALK OF FAITH! They received faith "without us"! They received "justification" without us (Rom. 3:25). They received the gospel without us (Heb. 4:2).

What they cannot receive "without us" is the finality of salvation when we are "made perfect" as they are raised together with us in the resurrection. What they cannot receive "without us" is the new heaven and new earth with the New Jerusalem COME DOWN on earth - Rev. 21:1 as that occurs AFTER the resurrection.

They received remission of sins "without us" - Acts 10:43

They received justification without us - Rom. 3:25; 4:1-21

They received the gospel by faith without us - Heb. 4:2/Acts 10:43

They received circumcision in the heart/new birth without us -Jn. 3:3-6

They received the Spirit without us - Rom. 8:8-9

They did not receive the promise of the Spirit in regard to the new covenant administration and great commission to the world - Acts 1:8. They had no "house of God" made up of spiritual stones and thus indwelt corporately by the Spirit - 1 Peter. 2:5. Go learn the difference between the INDIVDUAL as a "temple" of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:17) and the INSTITUTIONAL "temple" of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16). The Holy Spirit has always been with us in the sense of indwelling the INDIVIDUAL temple (1 Cor. 6:17) but never until Pentecost did the Holy Spirit indwell a singular corporate "temple" made up of PLURAL stones (1 Cor. 3:16). It is this latter temple that received the baptism in the Spirit and a world wide commission to the end of the age.

 

[Van]

More Nonsense

Because your responses are irrational, without scripture, simply unsubstantiated conjectures.

For example,

1. You IMAGINE that election in Christ in the context of personal salvation in Eph. 1:4

Whoa, lets stop this right here!. God chose us corporately in Him, so this context refers to our corporate election for salvation before the foundation of the world. Why is it you cannot address my actual position? You are simply wasting time throwing up a smokescreen of misrepresentation.

s a different kind of election in the context of personal salvation in 2 Thes. 2:13 - pure imagination without one scintilla of contextual evidence for that conjecture while the whole context repudiates your conjecture.

we have a complete denial of "from" referring to something out of creation, whereas before the foundation of the world refers to before creation. To simply claim the words mean the same thing is Unsubstantiated fiction.

2. "before the foundation of the world" and "from the beginning" both equally predate the personal existence of the readers.

Yet another fiction. Before the foundation of the world predates the personal existence of every created person. But from the beginning refers to the time period of creation to the end of time, i.e. during the lifetimes of every created person.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "from the beginning" refers to the point of CHOICE by the Father - "God hath from the beginning chosen you".

That is correct, God makes His choices of individuals for salvation after creation. Agreed.

From the beginning of what? From the beginning of God's determination concerning you for salvation. You have no contextual based evidence to disprove this - NOTHING - NADA! Just your fertile imagination!

At a minimum from the beginning refers to from creation, not before. You can claim apo means pro till the cows come home, but the text says the opposite of your unsubstantiated fiction.

3. John 6:29 "THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD that ye believe" - faith is not a work of man but a gift to man (Eph. 2:8) as Jesus is both the author and finisher of faith (Heb. 12:2). Faith is given by the father (Jn. 6:44-45 as interpreted by Jesus in John 6:64-65 - read it "except IT BE GIVEN UNTO YOU by the Father" - v. 65! What is given - the ability to believe as this is explanatory for those Jews whom Jesus knew from the beginning did not believe - v. 64 - read it!

If you cannot address my view, why waste verbiage? Note the effort to discuss anything and everything except conditional election. This topic has been addressed. Total Spiritual Inability is yet another fiction. Note how Calvinist's drag one mistaken view in to muddy discussion of another point. Hogwash.

 

[Van]

ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME

Understanding the biblical concept of the phrase “all that the Father gives Me” requires careful study of several passages of scripture. First lets look at John 6.

In verse 37, Jesus says (NASB) “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” This verse says if a person is given to Christ, it results in salvation 100% of the time; all given come and are not cast out. Second, the sequence seems clear, first if God gives someone they either simultaneously come to Christ or after they are given, they come to Christ, but clearly folks do not come to Christ before they are given.

In verse 44, Jesus says (NASB) “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.” This verse says two things, no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him, and everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved, for Jesus will raise him up on the last day.

Putting the two verses together, we get (1) God draws people, (2) some or all those drawn are given to Christ, (3) all those given in this manner come to Jesus, and (4) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

In verse 45, Jesus says (NASB) “It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught of God.” Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.”
So everyone who comes to Jesus must first have heard of God, which I think refers to hearing the gospel message. Then, everyone that comes to Jesus must have learned of God from God’s message. I think this learning refers to accepting and trusting in Christ.

Putting all three verses from John 6 together we get, (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

So based on these verses from John 6 we have a working hypothesis of the meaning of the phrase, “all that the Father gives to Me.”

In verse 65, Jesus says (NASB) “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted Him from the Father.” If God has hardened the hearts of some, they will not understand the gospel and they will be unable to learn from it, is how I understand the verse - using “granted” to mean allowed. If God hardens a person’s heart, like Judas in this passage, then it has not been granted to come to Jesus. Judas certainly heard the message but just as certainly did not learn from it and put his faith in Christ. So it appears to me that this verse is consistent with my working hypothesis.

In John 12:32, Jesus says (NASB) “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Christ crucified is the center of the gospel message, so this is somewhat consistent with the working hypothesis. However, to fit, I must understand “all men” to refer to all men who have heard and understood the gospel, because the message of Christ being “lifted up” would not it seems to me to draw folks who either did not hear or understand the gospel. In Matthew 13, the parable of the four soils, Jesus explains that some people have hardened themselves, rather than being hardened by God for His purpose such as Judas or Pharaoh, and it appears to me that those who have hardened their heart to the degree they cannot understand the gospel, will not be drawn by the gospel, Matt. 13:19. Clearly my understanding requires a difference between being drawn to Jesus (John 12:32) and coming to Jesus (John 6:37; 44 and 45).

In order to accept this view as consistent with all scripture, one must accept that to be drawn means understanding a persuasive argument and accepting it to some degree, although not necessarily making a full commitment, i.e. the other soils of Matthew 13.
An alternate view, which I think mistaken, is to view draw as meaning to be compelled irresistibly. Matthew 13 clearly indicated folks could be attracted to the gospel, i.e. receive it with joy, and yet not believe from the heart or with all their heart.

In John 10:29 (NASB) Jesus says, “My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” First, the “them” refers back to verse 28 and to the ones Christ gives eternal life. In verse 28 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His (Christ’s) hand and in verse 29 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His Father’s hand. Thus when we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are in both the Father’s and the Son’s hand, saved forever. To make this clear, Jesus says, (verse 30) “I and My Father are one.” This verse, too, is consistent with the working hypothesis.

In John 17:4 we see that God gives other things to Christ, in this case His work to accomplish, and so we need to look at context to verify that people are being given to Christ for the purpose of their salvation, as opposed to something or someone being given to Christ for some other purpose.

In John 17:6 we see that the Father has given some individuals to Christ, but the purpose was for them to receive the words God had given to Christ (verse 8). We see that these men were given to Christ out of the world, so out of the “kosmos of man” God gave these to Christ for a purpose. These men believed God had sent Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah.

In verses 9 – 12 we see that Jesus asks in behalf of these men, His disciples, for God to keep them in His name, indicating they were believers and Jesus is asking God to protect their faith, sanctify them in truth so to speak. Jesus says not one of them perished, but the son of Perdition, again indicating these were not given for the purpose of salvation. Jesus then says, verse 20, that He is not asking in behalf of the disciples only, but also for those who will believe in Christ through the message Christ gave them from God.

In John 17:24 (NASB) Jesus says, "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.” This also refers to Christ’s disciples given to Christ for the purpose of passing on the gospel to the world. To be with Me, again refers to being with Christ as a faithful servant, rather than apart from Christ spreading less than the pure gospel.

If we back up a bit and return to verse 17:6, we see that in these verses, the Father is giving to the Son people who belong to the Father. This begs the question, in what way did the disciples belong to the Father before they were given to the Son. All but Judas were “of God” meaning under the influence of God, looking for the Messiah, trusting in God’s word (Old Testament revelation). From this I conclude Jesus is referring to the eleven, Jesus was not praying in behalf of Judas, and therefore Jesus is saying they belonged to God because they believed in God and were committed to following God as best they knew how.

1 John 5:1 says (NASB), “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. Based on the Greek tenses, this verse says that everyone who believes in the present has been born of God in the past. It is God who determines whether or not a person “believes” (Romans 4:5). John 1:12-13 says whoever believes in Christ is given by God the right to become children of God, born by the will of God. So if we put those three verses together we get (3) God gives 100% of those whose faith He credits as righteous to Christ, and (5) everyone that arrives in Christ in this manner is then born again by the will of God and saved forever

In John 3:3 scripture teaches we must have been born again to see the kingdom of God. In John 3:5 scripture teaches we must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

In summary, I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

Steps 2 and 3 comprise our individual election unto salvation, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which says “… God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the Truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” When God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) He then gives us to Christ by spiritually placing us in Christ, thus “all that the Father gives Me” are saved forever.

 

[Van]

Another fertile imaginative doctrine of yours is that salvation prior to the cross is different than after the cross. There is no salvation OUTSIDE OF CHRIST anywhere at anytime on planet earth for anyone.

Another misrepresentation of my view. You are simply wasting time, inventing strawman arguments to knock down. You are trying to bury the truth in an avalanche of mistaken assertions.

 

[Van]

When are we made perfect in Christ? When we are spiritually placed in Christ and arise a new creation, or when we are bodily resurrected at Christ's second coming. Calvinism claims we who are in Christ have not been made perfect. Total fiction yet again. Assertion after assertion, from being to end, Calvinism is without any support in scripture.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Anyone who denies that we are made perfect in Christ, without spot or blemish, denies of Gospel of Christ. Behold Calvinism claim we have not been made perfect, past tense, in Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

Whoa, lets stop this right here!. God chose us corporately in Him, so this context refers to our corporate election for salvation before the foundation of the world. Why is it you cannot address my actual position? You are simply wasting time throwing up a smokescreen of misrepresentation.

If by "corporate" you mean universal election of all mankind, then you are simply blowing hot air as YOU HAVE NO CONTEXTUAL EVIDENCE to support that assertion. PROVE IT or stop merely asserting it!

 

[Van]

If you mean by "corporate election" you mean universal election? Yet another completely false misrepresentation of my view. If you cannot read, why post? Who were corporately elected, Those the Redeemer, our Lord and our God Jesus the Christ, would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. This is not rocket science. Ephesians 1:4 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 makes my case, where is the evidence from the other side???

Returning to the topic, scriptures that say we were elected through faith in the truth, we have many. Scriptures that say we were elected individually unconditionally, we have none, zip, nada. Not one verse. Yet Calvinism continues the travesty of rewriting verse after verse, making false assertion after false assertion, more than a dozen so far in this thread. LOL

Ever see a Calvinist explain the "in Him" part of Ephesians 1:4. They run the gamut from chosen "to be" placed in Him, to chosen and placed in Him before creation, to chosen because we were already in Him. No kidding, these were the efforts. The lamb of God was chosen before the foundation of the world, and therefore, because you do not choose a Redeemer without anticipating redemption, God chose us [corporately] in Him before the foundation of the world. This is not rocket science.

 

[The Biblicist]

we have a complete denial of "from" referring to something out of creation, whereas before the foundation of the world refers to before creation. To simply claim the words mean the same thing is Unsubstantiated fiction.

Reading lesson #1: 2 Thessalonians says nothing about "creation" and nothing about the "world" - be honest with what the text says and does not say. You are making assumptions that this text does not state.

The phrase "from the beginning" is used differently in scripture and only the context can define it, for example:

Lu 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Joh 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Joh 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Ac 11:4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

None of the uses "from the beginning" refer to the beginning of the world or the beginning of creation. The context must determine its reference point.


In 2 Thessalonians the reference point is the time when God made this choice. Ephesians 1:4 places that time "before the world" as does 2 Tim. 1:9:

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

You cannot arbritrarily without one shred of contextual evidence just declare and assert that Ephesians 1;4 and 2 Tim. 1:9 refer to one kind of election and 2 thessalonians 2;13 refers to another kind simply because you don't like the implications. Any heretic can and does make those kind of assertions - provide PROOF contextually or don't assert.