This says nothing to explain the passage isn't about Israel having an ability to choose right. Why is Jesus telling them He has waited and longed for their repentance, "yet ye WOULD not!" .
Was Jesus just flapping His lips?
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Unconditional Election
- Thread starter steaver
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This says nothing to explain the passage isn't about Israel having an ability to choose right. Why is Jesus telling them He has waited and longed for their repentance, "yet ye WOULD not!" .
Was Jesus just flapping His lips?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
One thing is certain: Jesus Christ did not "just flap his lips"!
Israel's election was not unconditional:
Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
God chose those Jews who continued in the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He chose the Jews because of the oath he had made to Abraham. This was not unconditional, this was because Abraham had faith and believed God's promise.
Romans 11 explains that for unbelief the elect Jews were cut off and the Gentiles because of faith are graffed in. Paul warns the Gentiles that they must continue in faith or they will likewise be cut off as the elect as well.
Biblicist claimed Romans 11 has nothing to do with election, but Albert Barnes agrees with me.
To the contrary, Romans 11 deals directly with election. Barnes also agreed this election was conditioned upon faith.
Again, Calvinists always believe themselves superior to others (not that I care, they are fooling themselves). but I have shown that my interpretation of this passage was correct and knowledgeable scholars agree with my interpretation. That is not important to me, I can simply read, but fellows like Biblicist refuse to read scripture for what it truly says.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Yeah! Yeah! It is all God's fault. Mankind is as pure as the driven snow and some will even consent to let God save them! Very gracious of man don't you think.
1) The New Covenant is one of the Everlasting Covenants. True
2) The New Covenant is a conditional covenant. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish. True.
3) The New Covenant was promised before it was inaugurated. True
4) Fallen unregenerate men of flesh have the limited spiritual ability to understand and receive the milk of the gospel. True.
5) No one ascended to the third heaven, also called Paradise before Christ died. True.
6) Only after we have been spiritually placed in Christ are we regenerated, born anew, and arise a new creation in Christ. True.
7) Logical fallacies do not lend support for a point of view. True.
8) The OT saints were not made perfect, made righteous, justified before Christ died. True
9) Abraham's faith was reckoned as righteousness, but Abraham himself was not made righteous before Christ died. True.
10) The OT saints were not indwelt, i.e. that occurs in the New Covenant only. True.
Scripture makes very clear we are individually elected through faith in the truth, i.e. a conditional election. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. There is no verse that says or suggests we were chosen unconditionally. None, zip, nada. Scripture also mentions our corporate election before creation, i.e. we were chosen in Him, thus every individual chosen individually was chosen in Him corporately before the foundation of the world.
2) The New Covenant is a conditional covenant. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish. True.
3) The New Covenant was promised before it was inaugurated. True
4) Fallen unregenerate men of flesh have the limited spiritual ability to understand and receive the milk of the gospel. True.
5) No one ascended to the third heaven, also called Paradise before Christ died. True.
6) Only after we have been spiritually placed in Christ are we regenerated, born anew, and arise a new creation in Christ. True.
7) Logical fallacies do not lend support for a point of view. True.
8) The OT saints were not made perfect, made righteous, justified before Christ died. True
9) Abraham's faith was reckoned as righteousness, but Abraham himself was not made righteous before Christ died. True.
10) The OT saints were not indwelt, i.e. that occurs in the New Covenant only. True.
Scripture makes very clear we are individually elected through faith in the truth, i.e. a conditional election. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. There is no verse that says or suggests we were chosen unconditionally. None, zip, nada. Scripture also mentions our corporate election before creation, i.e. we were chosen in Him, thus every individual chosen individually was chosen in Him corporately before the foundation of the world.
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:thumbs::thumbs:
See #7 above.
Scripture makes very clear we are individually elected through faith in the truth, i.e. a conditional election. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. There is no verse that says or suggests we were chosen unconditionally. None, zip, nada. Scripture also mentions our corporate election before creation, i.e. we were chosen in Him, thus every individual chosen individually was chosen in Him corporately before the foundation of the world.
2 Thes. 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1. Time chosen - "from the beginning chosen you"
2. Chosen unto what? - "chosen TO salvation"
Not chosen BECAUSE OF salvation as you are teaching! But unconditional
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1. Time chosen - "before the foundation of the world"
2. Reason chosen - "that we should be holy and without blame"
Not chosen BECAUSE of foreseen holiness as you are teaching but unconditional
Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
1. Time chosen - "the children not yet born"
2. Reason chosen - "neither having done any good or evil"
3. Basis for choice - "purpose of God according to election"
Not chosen on the basis of foreseen good or evil - unconditional
False, it says we are chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit AND BELIEF OF THE TRUTH. That is conditional, if you do not believe in the truth you are not chosen.
False, this verse says we were chosen "in him". That is conditional, no one is in Christ unless they believe on him.
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jesus here explains how a person gets "in him" or "in Christ", that is, by belief.
I agree with Van about corporate election, God chose all those persons who would be "in him" or "in Christ" in time by believing on Jesus. What God chose is that they should be holy and blameless. But being "in Christ" is absolutely conditional, a person must believe to be "in him".
Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
1. Time chosen - "the children not yet born"
2. Reason chosen - "neither having done any good or evil"
3. Basis for choice - "purpose of God according to election"
Not chosen on the basis of foreseen good or evil - unconditional
You don't get it, when scripture says "not of works", what is left? FAITH. That is all there is, either faith or works, there is nothing else. You are either saved by works, or saved by faith. This verse shows election is not based on works, so all that remains is FAITH.
It says election is according to him that calleth. This is speaking of faith, this exact language is used of Abraham in Hebrews 11.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Abraham was elected by God calling him when he answered in faith.
Pitchback
Reading lesson 1, from the beginning does not equate with before the beginning. Thus the election for salvation did not occur before the foundation of the world.
Reading lesson 2, they were chosen for salvation, not to salvation. Calvinism is defended by translation shopping, here we have the KJV offered as how the verse reads, not the NKJV, NASB, NEB, WEB, and HCSB.
Reading lesson 3: I did not say or suggest this election was conditioned on foreseen faith. Calvinism is defended by misrepresenting those that differ.
Reading lesson 4: Those chosen corporately before the foundation of the world were chosen for salvation.
Reading lesson 5: They were not chosen before the foundation of the world for salvation, thus the example is non-germane to the topic.
There were not chosen because they had not done anything good or bad, they were chosen so the older would serve the younger.
And again, they were not chosen based on foreseen good or evil, so yet another misrepresentation.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 makes our election for salvation very clear, we were set apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, and through faith in the true, i.e. God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Are all of God's choices conditional? Nope, but our election for salvation was conditioned on God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Reading lesson 1, from the beginning does not equate with before the beginning. Thus the election for salvation did not occur before the foundation of the world.
Reading lesson 2, they were chosen for salvation, not to salvation. Calvinism is defended by translation shopping, here we have the KJV offered as how the verse reads, not the NKJV, NASB, NEB, WEB, and HCSB.
Reading lesson 3: I did not say or suggest this election was conditioned on foreseen faith. Calvinism is defended by misrepresenting those that differ.
Reading lesson 4: Those chosen corporately before the foundation of the world were chosen for salvation.
Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
1. Time chosen - "the children not yet born"
2. Reason chosen - "neither having done any good or evil"
3. Basis for choice - "purpose of God according to election"
Not chosen on the basis of foreseen good or evil - unconditional
Reading lesson 5: They were not chosen before the foundation of the world for salvation, thus the example is non-germane to the topic.
There were not chosen because they had not done anything good or bad, they were chosen so the older would serve the younger.
And again, they were not chosen based on foreseen good or evil, so yet another misrepresentation.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 makes our election for salvation very clear, we were set apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, and through faith in the true, i.e. God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Are all of God's choices conditional? Nope, but our election for salvation was conditioned on God crediting our faith as righteousness.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
God answers this in Ephesians 1:4.
The most literal translations trump your versions!
2 Thessalonians 2:13, American Standard Version
13. But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2 Thessalonians 2:13, Greens Literal Translation
13. But we ought to thank God always concerning you, brothers, beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,
2 Thessalonians 2:13, Youngs Literal Translation
13. And we--we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,
Perhaps you are unique among those who reject the Doctrines of Grace.
They were not chosen corporately but individually in Jesus Christ. And the only way anyone can be holy and without blame is through the New Birth!
They were chosen to demonstrate God's purpose in election just as the Scripture states for all who would believe!
Another misrepresentation? Surely you jest!
Election is unconditional, not on the basis of either good or evil or a foreknown response!
You correctly state that our faith is credited for righteousness. However, that has nothing to do with God's choice of certain persons TO or UNTO Salvation in Jesus Christ.
You need to spend much time in reading comprehension before you get your teaching certificate.
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OldRegular said:
False, scriptures says we are chosen through belief of the truth, that is conditional.
2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
We are chosen to be saved through sanctification of the Spirit AND BELIEF OF THE TRUTH.
It is you Calvinists/DoGs that need reading comprehension skills.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 is not talking about a different election than Ephesians 1:4 and there it is "before the world." Hence, "from the beginning" is synonomous with "before the world." You have to either pit 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and the phrase "from the beginning" against Ephesians 1:4 "before the world began" or ignore one or the other. If we are chosen in Christ "before the world began" then we were chosen "from the beginning" as well as before we were born (Rom. 9:11).
Fine! Whether "to" or "unto" or "for" is fine! None read "because of" and that is what you are trying to teach. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 cannot mean "because of" salvation as Ephesians 1:4 does give a purpose clause "that they might be" and that denies they were chosen because of an fututre sanctification found in them but rather that God "might" sanctify them. Thus "to salvation THROUGH sanctification" in 2 Thes. 2:13 cannot refer to cause but rather consequence just as it does in Ephesians 1:4.
No, it just shows you really don't understand the issues very well. If election is not conditioned upon forseen faith than it is not conditioned upon foreseen sanctification either and thus not conditioned upon anything other than "according to God's purpose" of grace (Rom. 11:6) and that is the crux of "unconditional" election.
Election is personal and individual (1 Thes. 1:4-5) because the gospel comes only to individuals and Paul says that is how individuals can know if they are one of God's elect. Election is unto, to, for salvation and salvation is not a corporate but individual and personal.
There is no corporate "salvation through sanctification by the Spirit"! There is no corporate "salvation through....beleif of the truth"! Some he NEVER KNEW in regard to salvation (Mt. 7:23) but the elect he has always foreknown (Rom. 8:29) according to His purpose of salvation (Rom. 8:28) and these are the elect (Rom. 8:32). There is no corporate justification, calling, glorification (Rom. 8:30). That is all personal, individual and by God's elective purpose before the world began. Every single solitary person the Father gives to the Son comes in faith to the Son (Jn. 6:37) and thus giving by the Father is the CAUSE of coming to the Son. And every single one the Father gives to the Son, not only comes but "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" (Jn. 6:39) but should raise "it...him" up to the resurrection of life (Jn. 6:39,40,44) and that is PERSONAL and INDIVIDUAL and not corporate by the very nature of the personal pronouns.
Election to salvation is "before the world" and "from the beginning" (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13) and therefore before any of the elect were born into this world, just as matter of common sense.
The context demands more than that but including that. Paul's argument is that in order to be a child of promise one must be more than merely physically born into Israel and that not all physical Israel are the children of promise. Ishmael was physically born to Abraham but he was merely a child of the flesh rather than a child of God. The same is true with Jacob versus Esau - read the verse in its context:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The children of God are SUPERNATURALLY born by promise as Isaac and prechosen by God as Jacob and that is why it is neither him that runneth or him that willeth but of God that sheweth mercy. That is why it is according to the elective Purpose of God and unconditional - not dependent upon what good or evil they will do in their lives. Just read the context and follow the argument.
When we talk about unconditional or conditional election we are talking about the CAUSE or basis for election. The Bible says it is based in "grace" (Rom. 11:5) and not in "works" (Rom. 11:6; 9:11). Grace means it is not conditioned upon you or what you do but upon God's purpose of grace. Grace = unconditional merit or basis. This is spelled out for you in Ephesians 1:4-11 over and over again
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Election before the world is "according to his good willl....according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed IN HIMSELF....according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" not according to conditions met by us after we are born.
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They are referring to two different elections, one corporate before creation and one individual after creation. To be chosen from the beginning precludes being chosen before the beginning. The election has to be after the beginning.
Thanks for accepting the election of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 was for salvation. I am saying the "how" were we chosen is by being set apart in Christ, and I am saying the basis of the election is God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Yes, the corporate election before creation was not conditioned on foreseeing individuals, but rather the target group for redemption was seen as those Christ would redeem. Thus when Christ was chosen before creation to be the lamb, those that would be redeemed by the lamb were also chosen corporately.
Individual election for salvation is personal and individual. So the corporate election of Ephesians 1:4 is not personal or individual, but individual and personal election for salvation fits perfectly with all of Paul's writings.
Reading lesson: No one said there is a corporate salvation. Calvinism is defended by misrepresenting the views of others.
Lets go over Romans 8 yet again for the millionth time. Did God formulate a plan of redemption before creation? Yes. As part of that plan did God choose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God before creation? Yes. Did God's plan include His redeemer redeeming INDIVIDUALS FOR SALVATION? Yes When God implements this plan of redemption is it according to His foreknowledge. Yes. Did His plan including resurrecting those chosen? Yes. Thus all those individually chosen were predestined to be adopted as son!
Next lets talk about John 6. How are individuals given to Christ? The Holy Spirit puts them in Christ. Thus everyone given to Christ for salvation arrives in Christ. No mention of "coming to faith" so yet another reading lesson. And yes, once an individual is put in Christ, Christ shall in no way cast out. At least we agree on that part.
This is a matter of common misunderstanding. When do you suppose names are written in the Lamb's book of life, when they are chosen or before they are chosen? When they are chosen. So when are they written, or not written? FROM the foundation of the world, not before the foundation of the world. So individual election for salvation occurs after creation.
Agreed, but we are talking about God deciding who will be a child of God based on God crediting an individuals faith in the truth as righteousness.
No one was supernaturally born anew before Christ paid the ransom. Yes God does choose some individuals for His purpose before they have done anything good or bad, but He does not choose individuals for salvation unconditionally, these He chooses based on crediting their faith in the truth as righteousness. Thus, Romans 9, it does not depend on the man that wills or runs but on God.
Agreed
Yet another common misunderstanding. Recall the verse God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble? This means grace can be based on God's conditional purpose.
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[/QUOTE] This wonderful passage is speaking to individuals who have been individually chosen and placed in Christ. Thus Paul is listing the blessings of those in Christ, starting with being corporately chosen before creation. Another blessing is we in Christ are predestined to our bodily resurrection, our adoption as sons. Next, because of His precious blood, He has made us accepted in Christ. We also have redemption in Christ. We who are in Christ have obtained a predestined inheritance. After we believed, we were put in Christ and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. This is directly referring to our conditional election for salvation.
Yes His plan was to choose those that believed because that was His sovereign purpose and plan!
Besides your conjectures and inferences and imagination for that distinction what is the explicit Biblical evidence there are two different kinds of elections both of which are found in context of personal and individual salvation as is the case with Ephesians 1:4-11; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13-14???? Proof please?
First, notice the differences. In one text it simply says that before the foundation of the world this election took place (Eph. 1:4). However, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says nothing about any "foundation" or any "world" but says merely "from the beginning." The beginning of what? FROM THE BEGINNING OF GOD'S ELECTIVE CHOICE when the Father, Son and Holy Spirit made an "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20).
However, one thing is for certain, this elective choice preceded the birth of any of God's elect from Genesis to revelation and thus is not based upon anything after the beginning found in their existence.
Election is always in regard to salvation - always! It is never found in scripture unto damnation.
The ordinary use of the Greek preposition "eis" when its object is found in the accusative case (2 Thes. 2:13) is one of terminating action.
Wrong! "in Christ" identifies the SPHERE of election not "how" they were elected. The "how" is repeatedly defined by the prepositional phrases "according to".
What you are saying is that election has its basis in foreseen faith when you say "election is God crediting our faith as righteousness." Also, you are confusing justification with election. Justification "is God crediting our faith as righteousness (Rom. 4:3,6).
Election does not have its basis in "our faith" but is the cause of our faith "through sanctification of the 4-65Spirit AND belief of the truth." Faith or coming to Christ is the consequence not the cause of being given to Christ by the Father in election (Jn. 6:37,39, 44-45; 65).
You are reversing cause and effects as election is the basis that we "might be sanctified" not because we are sanctified and holy before him (Eph. 1:4b). You are teaching that election is based upon foreseen good when that is precisely what Paul denies concerning the purpose of God according to election (Rom. 9:11).
There is no corporate election any more than there is any corporate damnation. The choice unto salvation was personal and individual and based upon God's purpose of Grace. One must be "created in Christ" personally and indivdually in addition to be chosen "in him" - Eph. 1:4; 2:10.
Ephesians 1:13-14 proves that election in Christ is personal and individual. The Father chose (Eph. 1:4-6); the Son redeemed (Eph. 1:7-8) and the Holy Spirit applied that redemption personally and individually.
Reading lesson, election in all contexts mentioned is directly associated with personal and individual salvation as its consequence. Look at 1 Thes. 1:4-5. Verse 4 tells individuals they can know if they are one of God's elect. Verse 5 tells individuals how they can know they are God's elect. 2 Thes. 2:13-14 is election in direct relationship to personal and individual sanctification by the Spirit AND belief of the truth. Ephesians 1:4 is election that obtains sanctification (holy) and ultimate glorification (blameless) before him. You cannot have a corporate election without corporate salvation as election is indisputably presented as the cause of salvation in each context.
1. "that ye might be" - holy and blameless - Eph. 1:4
2. "knowing....your election of God. FOR... - 1 Thes. 1:4-5
3. "to (Gr. eis) salvation through.... 2 Thes. 2:13
My friend "we" have never gone over it even once!
Deal with the language instead of philosophizing and paraphrasing your own ideology! This plan did not merely include salvation but Paul says "ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER" and they work together because God is working them "ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE" - v. 28
The identify of the repeated "those" in verse 29-30 are "the elect" in verse 32. This election is eternal, individual and personal and that is indisputably proven by the context. This is the mechanics of election to salvation.
1. ALL THINGS WORK according to His Purpose
2. Thus the elect are forenown to salvation according to that purpose
3. Thus the elect are predestinated according to that purpose
4. Thus the elect are called, justified and glorified according to that purpose.
Next lets talk about John 6. How are individuals given to Christ? The Holy Spirit puts them in Christ. Thus everyone give:n to Christ for salvation arrives in Christ. No mention of "coming to faith" so yet another reading lesson. And yes, once an individual is put in Christ, Christ shall in no way cast out. At least we agree on that part.
Enough philosophical and rationalization! Stick to the scriptures. The whole context from John 6:29 to John 6:70 is about the nature of faith and the metaphors for believing in Christ. Coming, eating, drinking are all metaphors used for believing in Christ. Just read the context and that should be obvious if you read it without bias.
Nothing is said here in this text about the work of the Holy Spirit but rather the work of the Father. They come to Christ because they are given to Christ by the father (v. 37) they are not given to Christ because they come but that is exactly what you are erroneously teaching here.
Talk about a misunderstanding! Their names are written in the lamb's book of life when the everlasting covenant of redemption (Heb. 13:20; Eph. 1:4-12) occurred between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Hence, their names were written "before the foundation of the world" and "from the beginning" of election.
No such thing in scripture! You are confusing Justification with election. Justification is God accrediting righteousness on the basis of faith while election is giving some to the Son in order that they will come to Christ in faith (Jn. 6:36 with verse 37).
Another common ignorance of Scripture. So Jesus was just flapping his lips to Nicodemus BEFORE the cross - Jn. 3:3-5 and then rebuking him for not understanding this basic elementary truth of salvation (v. 9)??? The new birth in the Old Testament is called circumcison of the heart. You just as well deny saints prior to the cross could be justified as that is based upon the blood of Christ as much as regeneration (Rom. 4:1-23; Acts 10:43). You simply don't understand that God applied the New Covenant salvation based upon faith in THE PROMISE (Rom. 3:25).
This wonderful passage is speaking to individuals who have been individually chosen and placed in Christ. Thus Paul is listing the blessings of those in Christ, starting with being corporately chosen before creation. Another blessing is we in Christ are predestined to our bodily resurrection, our adoption as sons. Next, because of His precious blood, He has made us accepted in Christ. We also have redemption in Christ. We who are in Christ have obtained a predestined inheritance. After we believed, we were put in Christ and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. This is directly referring to our conditional election for salvation.They are referring to two different elections, one corporate before creation and one individual after creation. To be chosen from the beginning precludes being chosen before the beginning. The election has to be after the beginning.
Thanks for accepting the election of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 was for salvation. I am saying the "how" were we chosen is by being set apart in Christ, and I am saying the basis of the election is God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Yes, the corporate election before creation was not conditioned on foreseeing individuals, but rather the target group for redemption was seen as those Christ would redeem. Thus when Christ was chosen before creation to be the lamb, those that would be redeemed by the lamb were also chosen corporately.
Individual election for salvation is personal and individual. So the corporate election of Ephesians 1:4 is not personal or individual, but individual and personal election for salvation fits perfectly with all of Paul's writings.
Reading lesson: No one said there is a corporate salvation. Calvinism is defended by misrepresenting the views of others.
Lets go over Romans 8 yet again for the millionth time. Did God formulate a plan of redemption before creation? Yes. As part of that plan did God choose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God before creation? Yes. Did God's plan include His redeemer redeeming INDIVIDUALS FOR SALVATION? Yes When God implements this plan of redemption is it according to His foreknowledge. Yes. Did His plan including resurrecting those chosen? Yes. Thus all those individually chosen were predestined to be adopted as son!
Next lets talk about John 6. How are individuals given to Christ? The Holy Spirit puts them in Christ. Thus everyone given to Christ for salvation arrives in Christ. No mention of "coming to faith" so yet another reading lesson. And yes, once an individual is put in Christ, Christ shall in no way cast out. At least we agree on that part.
This is a matter of common misunderstanding. When do you suppose names are written in the Lamb's book of life, when they are chosen or before they are chosen? When they are chosen. So when are they written, or not written? FROM the foundation of the world, not before the foundation of the world. So individual election for salvation occurs after creation.
Agreed, but we are talking about God deciding who will be a child of God based on God crediting an individuals faith in the truth as righteousness.
No one was supernaturally born anew before Christ paid the ransom. Yes God does choose some individuals for His purpose before they have done anything good or bad, but He does not choose individuals for salvation unconditionally, these He chooses based on crediting their faith in the truth as righteousness. Thus, Romans 9, it does not depend on the man that wills or runs but on God.
Agreed
Yet another common misunderstanding. Recall the verse God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble? This means grace can be based on God's conditional purpose.
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Yes His plan was to choose those that believed because that was His sovereign purpose and plan![/QUOTE]
NONE are able/willing though to place faith in jesus UNLESS God first foreknew them, as the Bible plainly states that its individual Election, and that thiose whom he knew was due to Him choosing beforehand to mark them out/apart unto salvation in christ! Election upon Will of God, NOT due to him seeing our coming faith!
Here's a fellow who was a very devout Calvinist for over 20 years, he's finally got it figured out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCkVZyrOKnI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCkVZyrOKnI
SovereignMercy
Member
I was a devout arminian for 17 years. I was blind but now I see.
Don't you mean that God ordained you to be an Arminian for 17 years?
Did God change his mind to make you a Calvinist?
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